Opinions About Item Degradation Issue


madrepityu

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Items like hatchet, hunting knifes, hunting rifle, etc. should not became completely broke, imho. It hurts everyone’s eyes, as it isn't so life-like.

In my opinion you should turn this “condition” thing into a “maintenance” thing. I mean, the percentage should represent how an item maintained, instead of its “condition”. It means that an item will never broke, but will lose its maintenance level.

The hatchet and the knife would become blunt and/or rusty, but not completely broke. The rifle became dirty and rusty, etc. It did happens in real life.

The “maintenance level” would affect the effectiveness of an item, and would has its own penalties, and it would require some materials to fix, ofc.

100% would be full effectiveness, and 0% would be equal than do the same task with bare hands.

If a knife has 100% maintained it would cost e.g. 2 hours to processing a fresh deer. If the knife has 0% it would cost the same amount of time as doing it with bare hands, e.g. 8 hours. It's like not having it, but in a more realistic way.

If the hatchet are 100% maintained it would give e.g. 10x better chance/amount of getting firewood. If the hatchet are 0% maintained it would give the same chance of getting firewood as doing it with bare hands. It's like not having it, also.

The rifle would has the chance of a shell stuck into the chamber while shooting, below e.g. 50% maintenance level (dirt, rust). In a wrong place, in a wrong time, it would be worst as not having it. :twisted: Maybe you would even lost that shell.

The maintenance would require:

- animal fat and maybe a cloth to prevent rust

- sharpening stone, or a simple flat stone and leather to sharpening things

- kerosene/accelerator and maybe a cloth to clean things

So, for the hatchet and knife: sharpening stone, leather, animal fat

For the rifle: kerosene, cloth, animal fat

Can opener, storm lantern, simple tools, prybar: animal fat

etc., etc., etc.

If one of them reach 0% maintenance level, maybe the workbench should be involved, too. :twisted: ..if you think further punishment needed! :lol:

What do you think?

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I do like the idea of an item never being "beyond saving" from normal wear and tear. Of course, I am of the belief the clothing decay levels are unrealistic and abhorrent (okay, maybe not "abhorrent" but I really like the word, so :P) . I think if an item is allowed to drop to 0% through normal use, it should be able to be repaired at a work bench and, thereafter, maintained through the interface menu. Using natural items to maintain weapons and clothing from a "bygone era" would be nice, as would be crafting weapons and clothing from scratch.

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@madrepityu I like your concept and it seems not too difficult to implement.

I spent a lot of time with axes and never had to use fir wood to sharpen it. If it's a wooden handled hatchet there is always that chance of hitting something wrong and splitting the handle which would mean you need to bury and burn out the axe head, get a new handle and seat it with wedges- which is a super lengthy process. If you wanted to be uber realistic, I would say if you attempt to use the hatchet beyond a certain degradation point the odds of it breaking where you need to make a new handle could increase (extra complexity, though).

(Rub fat on all the things!!)

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@madrepityu I like your concept and it seems not too difficult to implement.

I spent a lot of time with axes and never had to use fir wood to sharpen it. If it's a wooden handled hatchet there is always that chance of hitting something wrong and splitting the handle which would mean you need to bury and burn out the axe head, get a new handle and seat it with wedges- which is a super lengthy process. If you wanted to be uber realistic, I would say if you attempt to use the hatchet beyond a certain degradation point the odds of it breaking where you need to make a new handle could increase (extra complexity, though).

(Rub fat on all the things!!)

I agree qith you 100%, but think the community will revolt if we add any more complexity to the item derogation.

I think it's funny some of the comments saying "I've had the same axe for 40 years and it's still good"

I bet 39 years, 11 months and 28 days of that, the axe not been working.

Anyone who uses a piece of equipment all day, every day, knows it needs maintenance... Oil, sharpening, etc.

Also, the expertise of using the item comes into play. If you use it wrong, it wears faster.

Finally, the quality of the item is also important. A solid Granfors Bruks axe will have much better longevity then the $8.99 Harbor Freight stamped steel one.

While I do agree that there's some more tuning and logic that needs to come into the game, I think people are setting their own personal baselines on experiences that don't reflect the situation thats present in the game.

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I agree qith you 100%, but think the community will revolt if we add any more complexity to the item derogation.

My "solution" are based on the current one. It's the same, actually. Only difference are that this way is realistic. Don't need to add anything new, just a few tweaks: Fat from animals and sharpening stone as a loot. Or, if you don't like the idea of a sharpening stone, then I would be happy to go into the wildlife to find a "Flat Stone - Good for sharpening things"! ;)

You still has the 100% to 0% condition countdown.

You still has the penalties for each % of degradation.

It's still takes time and material for the maintenance.

In my idea, the condition counter would constantly count down. As in the game right now. Let's say 100% to 0% e.g. 6 days. If the player would maintenance his gear every day, then the 100% to 0% would take e.g. 12 days. If the counter reach 0% then the workbench would be needed, and maybe the fir wood and scrap metal also. It's without using the item. And every usage of the item would cost few more %.

The point is that's more acceptable for everyone that his/her hunting(!) knife are became blunt and almost useless after a few venison, than completely broken like a plastic knife.

Not to mention the rifle. It may become dirty because of usage and rusty while sitting on the floor, but not completely broken!

Gear maintenance are a pretty important part of survival.

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  • 3 weeks later...
Items like hatchet, hunting knifes, hunting rifle, etc. should not became completely broke, imho. It hurts everyone’s eyes, as it isn't so life-like.

In my opinion you should turn this “condition” thing into a “maintenance” thing. I mean, the percentage should represent how an item maintained, instead of its “condition”. It means that an item will never broke, but will lose its maintenance level.

The hatchet and the knife would become blunt and/or rusty, but not completely broke. The rifle became dirty and rusty, etc. It did happens in real life.

The “maintenance level” would affect the effectiveness of an item, and would has its own penalties, and it would require some materials to fix, ofc.

[...]

I have added a link to this thread in my post: Suggestion collection. Part 1 (~35) (paragraph 8).

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I am having visions of the crushing disappointment when you raise the rifle, set the sights on an unsuspecting deer, pull the trigger, and... *click*. The gun jams, and the sound startles the deer, who takes off into the forest. Goodbye dinner.

And if the chance of that happening is linked to the rifle's condition, you finally have a good reason to keep it in tip top shape! Right now, I only repair the rifle when it is almost broken, and that's only if I didn't find another rifle (in my previous game I had 4!). I really like this idea!

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There could be a simplistic "maintenance" option in the menu, similar to the harvesting/repair option. A drop down menu and a time requirement for each "maintainable" item. If you don't then maintain an item after each use, the degradation takes place as normal next usage. If you do the maintenance between each use, the degradation is perhaps half what it is now the next time it is used.

I can't recall if the axe/knife/rifle degrade noticeably if not used, but if you "maintain" them, perhaps this degradation would cease altogether, or be reduced to a negligible level.

That way, if you end up having a "ruined" axe, or knife, it is your own fault for not looking after them, and not just down to the game punishing you.

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@Beanie, that sounds like a reasonable idea, provided there are some sources to actually perform maintenance on. If you add a whetstone, but it degrades at the same rate as a firestriker, you will be just shifting the problem. So maybe leave the repair in there, but add the maintenance option only for crafting tables, where you also have a whetstone, so that you cannot simply maintain your toold everywhere, because that would be somewhat too easy, I think.

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Trandor, I see what you mean, but I'm not sure there is an easy (and sensible) way of dealing with the issue that will not involve some kind of compromise.

Using the crafting table is an option, I agree, but looking after a knife, for example, is not a task that requires much more than a sharpening stone and a cleaning cloth.

I think there is no easy solution to his matter :(

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In balancing realism with game mechanics, lets look at the bare-bones mechanics:

1) Items decay so as to require the player to expend resources to repair/replace them. This cosmetically simulates damage sustained by using the item in a hostile environment.

2) Repairing items uses tools (an reusable resource that decays over time), materials (specific resources that are consumed in the repair process), and time/calories (general resources that are consumed in the repair process) in combination with the repair skill (chance of success or failure). This cosmetically simulates having access to the proper tools, materials, time, and skills necessary to perform these actions.

3) Item repair/harvesting can occur anywhere, so long as the protagonist has the requisite materials. Because the tools are mobile, it cosmetically simulates being able to use the tools outside the need of a "crafting station" or "workbench".

When talking about adding "maintenance" to your list of abilities, all I hear is replacing a few tools (whetstone instead of simple tools) and materials (grease/cloth instead of scrap metal/fir wood). Yes, this gives the protagonist more options on how to keep the condition of tools up or keeps the same number of options if maintenance replaces the ability to repair tool, but otherwise I don't see what the big deal it.

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I have to agree with @levism84 here. The problem isn't that we need more options to keep out tools in good condition, the problem is they degrade to fast. I say just lower the rate at which tools degrade and assume the player maintains his tools properly. I know having to maintain your tools would add realism, but it is not worth the effort it takes to implement IMHO.

Also aside from using items, many things degrade way to fast when your not using them. Many things shouldn't degrade like that at all if you ask me, but certainly much slower. Here's a small list that's by no means complete.

tools

knife

hatchet

rifle

firestriker

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I am having visions of the crushing disappointment when you raise the rifle, set the sights on an unsuspecting deer, pull the trigger, and... *click*. The gun jams, and the sound startles the deer, who takes off into the forest. Goodbye dinner.
And if the chance of that happening is linked to the rifle's condition, you finally have a good reason to keep it in tip top shape! Right now, I only repair the rifle when it is almost broken, and that's only if I didn't find another rifle (in my previous game I had 4!). I really like this idea!

Exactly what my thought about this!! Pretty good feeling that I'm not the only one who think it would be awesome.

I think that hunting situation would be worst and more desperate than if you don't have any rifle at all. And it would be the player's fault, because if she/he would keep the rifle maintained it won't happended.

And maintaining the equipment is a quite important aspect of the surviving, imho.

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When talking about adding "maintenance" to your list of abilities, all I hear is replacing a few tools (whetstone instead of simple tools) and materials (grease/cloth instead of scrap metal/fir wood). Yes, this gives the protagonist more options on how to keep the condition of tools up or keeps the same number of options if maintenance replaces the ability to repair tool, but otherwise I don't see what the big deal it.

With other players suggestions in this tread the idea constantly progressing, and I think in the end we came up with an acceptable solution. Keep in mind that when I started this tread there were no such thing as (Ruined) items introduced in the game. That time a 0% condition item would disappeared.

According to the player’s feedbacks/ideas on this topic and the forum, and after +50 days ingame, here's my current point of view:

1. "Maintenance" should not replace "Repair".

2. Materials involved in maintenance should not replace materials involved in repairing. Only need two new items: whetstone and animal 's fat.

3. Maintenance should only stop deteriorate when the item are not in use. And for a specified amount of time, e.g. 24 hours or until the next usage, as Beanie said.

4. Regularly maintained item should suffer less damage while in use, e.g. 8% instead of 10%. Basically means +2 bonus usage as a reward, if the item was maintained all the time.

5. Condition of an item should only raise if the protagonist repair it, as currently ingame.

6. To repair a hatchet, rifle, knife, simple tools and everything in "tools" after its ruined, workbench should be needed.

7. Not maintained tools below e.g. 30% condition should has the chance of some kind of failure. E.g. rifle misfire, no luck foraging with hatchet, no luck repairing with simple tools, less meat with the knife as predicted, etc.

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According to the player’s feedbacks/ideas on this topic and the forum, and after +50 days ingame, here's my current point of view:[spoil]1. "Maintenance" should not replace "Repair".

2. Materials involved in maintenance should not replace materials involved in repairing. Only need two new items: whetstone and animal 's fat.

3. Maintenance should only stop deteriorate when the item are not in use. And for a specified amount of time, e.g. 24 hours or until the next usage, as Beanie said.

4. Regularly maintained item should suffer less damage while in use, e.g. 8% instead of 10%. Basically means +2 bonus usage as a reward, if the item was maintained all the time.

5. Condition of an item should only raise if the protagonist repair it, as currently ingame.

6. To repair a hatchet, rifle, knife, simple tools and everything in "tools" after its ruined, workbench should be needed.

7. Not maintained tools below e.g. 30% condition should has the chance of some kind of failure. E.g. rifle misfire, no luck foraging with hatchet, no luck repairing with simple tools, less meat with the knife as predicted, etc.[/spoil]

Questionnaire ("+" for yes; "-" for no; "/" alternative idea):

1. [+] "Maintenance" should not replace "Repair".
2. [+] Materials needed for maintenance don't replace materials for repairing.
3. [/] Maintenance stops the degradation while items aren't in use, but only for a time or until the next usage.
4. [+] Well maintained item should degrade less while in use.
5. [+] Condition can only be improved by [b]repairing[/b].
6. [+] To repair a tool after it's ruined, player must use workbench.
7. [/] Tools below ~30% condition have a chance of failure.

3. Maintenance should stop the degradation while items aren't in use indeed. But its effect shouldn't be time limited and the item should stay maintained for a few uses.

7. Yes. My suggestions: rifle misfire; increased calorie consumption while foraging + increased chance of breaking hatchet handle; increased calorie consumption while harvesting a carcass.

Simple tools shouldn't degrade IMHO. The only tool that can degrade is a hacksaw. Others have only 2 states: fine and broken.

Thank you very much, m8! Good to see someone like the idea!
You're welcome!

Btw my post gave a good boost to this thread. ;)

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3. Maintenance should stop the degradation while items aren't in use indeed. But its effect shouldn't be time limited and the item should stay maintained for a few uses.

7. Yes. My suggestions: rifle misfire; increased calorie consumption while foraging + increased chance of breaking hatchet handle; increased calorie consumption while harvesting a carcass.

Simple tools shouldn't degrade IMHO. The only tool that can degrade is a hacksaw. Others have only 2 states: fine and broken.

3. It's okay for me. I just don't wanted to say something sounds too easy. So, yeah, I like it.

7. Oh yeah. I wasn't even dare to think something more complex, like your idea.

I think the same about the simple tools, but they do deteriorate. It would be nice if they don't. However, I understand the dev's point of view.

Btw my post gave a good boost to this thread. ;)

It wasn't that bad, before you post yours. ;) Anyway, thanks you for the link, indeed!

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I like this idea very much, if for no other reason that currently Clothing works the same way. A scarf that is 100% gives a full Degree of Celsius of warmth, at 70% its .7, at 20% its .2 and so on. Also using a flat stone to sharpen the hunting knife or the hatchet(or an axe or a mattock) makes more sense than using scrap metal and Fir wood, lord knows they could put a few harvest spots along the maps edge to acquire a flat stone for sharping or to use as a heat stone for longer journeys into the cold

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I got to agree here. I also found it a bit odd that I use scrap metal for repairing a bolt action rifle, which I have "harvested" from a prybar. It would perhaps make a lot more sense if scrap metal was extended with "mechanical parts", which can only be acquired from items which are somehow mechanical. Toolkits, alarm clocks, rifles, lamps. But using a prybar for 2 rifle repairs is a bit off. A prybar is nothing but a metal rod, and not much else can be made from it, unless you have machines, welding etc. Of course, you could file something from it, but it would take a loong time. And it would be made from pretty hard steel, so good luck filing it into something ...

But we must really think realistically about this. This is not supposed to become Repair Shop Simulator 2015. When more parts are added it leads to even more complex inconsistencies. HLS have made a simple, workable system, that does not pretend to cover the complete taxonomy of spare parts & tools. We should not go overboard with our ideas. Repairing the knife and hatchet with iron & firwood makes sense, simple system, simple to use. I think the policy should be that when more items are added, more logical can become available. But not to create a super complicated system of spare parts and tools that quickly becomes difficult to use and program.

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  • 1 year later...
Ha, it was funny to read my post and the replies after almost 1.5 years, and after the devs finally implemented our ideas! Now we know that it was indeed a good idea and it doesn't make the game a repair simulator! ;)

The other nice thing about commenting in the archives is it brings posts back that most new users haven't seen :)

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