The Expedition Challenge!

When coming up with this challenge I had these main points in mind - approach the game from a different perspective, do something fun with a saved game where you have all the good stuff, cover most of the game world, stay outdoors, get what you need only from the land.

The Expedition Challenge

Back Story: You are a mountain man/woman living alone in the northern wilderness. You make your living by obtaining and selling materials that are found in specific regions. Not just any wolf pelt will do, because everyone knows the best wolf pelts come from Timberwolf Mountain. Just like everyone knows the best bear hides come from Pleasant Valley. You finally have enough orders to justify an expedition through the area. You won't need to bring along any food, water or first aid supplies, because you can rely on your survival skills to get all of that along the way.

Here are your orders (Region they must come from):

- 1 raw coho salmon 10+ lbs (CH)

- 1 fresh black bear hide (PV)

- 2 fresh wolf skin pelts

- 3 fresh deer hides

- 4 fresh rabbit pelts (PV)

- 2 green maple saplings (DP)

- 6 green birch saplings (DP)

Here are the rules:

1. Can leave with a full backpack, but you cannot be encumbered (once you begin the challenge and leave the Trapper's Homestead you can carry as much as you like).

2. Can leave with any clothes and tools in any amount - except no flare gun, no flare gun ammo, no flares, no newsprint and no torches. Only one bedroll.

3. Cannot leave with any first aid, food, water or materials.

4. You can never use any flares or torches, but you can pick up and use the flare gun and ammo at the top of Timberwolf Mountain.

5. Cannot pick up any man made food stuffs, man made first aid supplies, tools, or clothes.

6. Cannot open containers of any kind.

7. Cannot go into any buildings that have loading screens, except the dam on your way back to Mystery Lake.

8. You must return to the Trapper's Homestead with all of the items in the order.

9. You cannot clear out any areas of wolves or bears before beginning - the animal population must be normal.

10. You cannot prepare stock piles of wood or other materials before you begin (in other words, everything you pick up should be getting picked up for the first time).

Here are the Checkpoints (You must complete in order):

Start - Trapper's Homestead (ML)

1 -Forest Lookout (ML)

2 - Coastal Townsite (CH)

3 - Little Island (DP)

4 - Jackrabbit Island (CH)

5 - Signal Hill (PV)

6 - Secluded Shelf

7 - Tail Section

8 - Rural Crossroads (PV)

9 - 3 Strikes Farmstead (PV)

10 - Lake Cabins (ML)

Finish - Trapper's Homestead (ML)

You can use any method you want to get your inventory set for this challenge. You can start a new game or use a saved game. Reset the plants and wildlife by deleting a few region files, if you need to. While you're at it, you might as well delete the dam file too. It wouldn't be a proper challenge if you didn't have to face fluffy in the dam!

How fast can you complete the challenge?

We can use the same method of screenshots and such as is being used for the Sea to Summit Challenge: http://www.hinterlandforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=9662

I like the idea of this challenge and was trying to think of something similar called the "around the world challenge" or something, a race to many checkpoints all around all the maps. I didn't think much further than that but I like the extra backstory and items to pick up and preparations and such that you have added.

I'm not sure how I feel about the whole preparation thing though. I think simpler is better for any rules and this is already pretty complicated. The biggest issue I have is preparation of coffee. It isn't stated specifically in the rules, but I assume you can't bring coffee, right? That is good if that is so, otherwise any time trail challenge where preparations are allowed are going to force everyone to bring copious amount of coffee with them to stand a chance.

I'm not against complicated rules like this, they can be fun too, but I think it should be made a lot more clear what specific supplies can be brought, and which can be picked up along the way.

Again, I'm not against complicated rules, but this challenge is pretty much impossible to prove that the players completed it within the rules. The Sea to Summit challenge is popular partly because the rules are simple and it's fairly simple to verify validity of winners by the screenshots. The Hunted Challenge has a big issue with proving rule following, which is why I think there isn't any organized forum leaderboards for it to the best of my knowledge. (however that is not a time trial but a survival challenge which is a big difference too)

I might do your challenge anyway and maybe everyone is fine with the honor system, but maybe another version of this challenge might be beneficial too. The easiest way that I can think to make a version that is easy to validate is to only consider the checkpoints and the order list and start from a new save. The checkpoints can easily be verified by journal entry screen shots and the order list can be verified from a simple inventory screen shot.

Proving where the order items were picked up is impossible I think. So maybe a simplified version of this challenge with the following rules might be of more interest to some players. Again, I don't mean to replace your challenge, just offer a variation.

1. Start a new save in Mystery Lake.

2. Get to Trapper's cabin as first Checkpoint.

3. Go to all the other checkpoints in order.

4. Take screen shot of all necessary checklist items in the inventory when back at Trappers's Cabin.

That should be verifiable by screenshots unless someone is super shady and savvy with photo shop in which case even the Sea to Summit screenshots are not 100% proof but lets not get too paranoid. The point is that that there might be players who would rather have a more simple version and the more simple the rules, the easier to verify. That might bring more people to try it.

Scyzara's Seven Screenshot Challenge is similar in spirit to this one, without complicated rules that can't be proven:

http://hinterlandforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=9951

Most of the rules in the OPs challenge can't be tested or proven.

Scyzara's Seven Screenshot Challenge is similar in spirit to this one, without complicated rules that can't be proven:

http://hinterlandforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=9951

Most of the rules in the OPs challenge can't be tested or proven.

Yes, because proving how great you are at the game and turning it into a ******* contest is the only way to play.

Who'd want to do a challenge just for having a good time?!

Yes, because proving how great you are at the game and turning it into a ******* contest is the only way to play.

Who'd want to do a challenge just for having a good time?!

Whoa, sounds like someone got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning... no idea why you believe my challenge to be a boasting contest. I actually tried to create a set of rules that makes it LESS hardcore and LESS unforgiving than the sea to summit challenge in order to give less experienced players the possibility to participate as well. :?

There's nothing bad about doing a challenge just for fun. I'm doing challenges "just for fun" myself, believe it or not. And no-one is forced to tell their times or post any screenshots anyway. There are probably many people out there who read about these challenges here on the forums and play them but don't bother to create a forum account to post their results afterwards. That's just legit, why shouldn't it be?

The OP's challenge sounds fun and I could well imagine to play it one day. But I have to agree to ThresholdSeven and Chillplayer that the looting limitations might be a bit too complicated, if this challenge is meant to be competitive in nature (= a community challenge instead of a single player challenge). You can't really backtrace or prove which items people have (or have not) looted, maybe permitting all kinds of items would thus be better. But that's the OP's decision to make, if he prefers an "honor"-based system that's fine.

I don't think any competition between different challenges is needed. Everyone can play the challenge he or she likes best (or simply all of them in a row). The more diverse the challenges are, the better. I for one don't find it problematic at all if not all challenges are equally competitive in nature.

It's great to have some community challenges where players can compete against each other, but other challenges may just as well be designed as single player challenges in which you only compete against yourself.

I had a feeling it might come off as a little too complicated. I was just trying to come up with a different way to approach the game and utilize some different kinds of strategies.

Whether or not any of you decide to give it a try, I still had a whole lot of fun putting it together. The checkpoints weren't just thrown together, I have timed how long it takes to walk between them all and many other places too. I put a lot of thought into the quantities of the items to obtain and their combined weights too. The idea was to force the player to spend some time having to consider which tools to bring and which type of clothes to bring.

The game puts all items into five categories - first aid, clothes, food, tools and materials. Coffee falls under food and would therefore not be allowed.

In regard to people providing proof that they followed the rules - I completely understand where you are coming from when you want to be sure everyone is on the up and up. However, no matter what set of rules you put together and no matter how foolproof you might think they are - they are not. There are several ways to bypass the rules of the other challenges. How can anyone even prove the screenshots they post are coming from the same run?

When it comes down to it, I just figured the only people that would participate in this or any other challenge would be people who are interested in doing the challenge for the sake of the challenge, and not just to get their name at the top of a list.

I apologize if I sent the thread off track. I just meant to offer a variation that might appeal to some players, not a replacement. The game can be great in any form, solo or competitive, easy to prove scores or not. I look forward to many more challenges like this one and wish everyone luck and great times in TLD.

Yes, because proving how great you are at the game and turning it into a ******* contest is the only way to play.

Who'd want to do a challenge just for having a good time?!

Whoa, sounds like someone got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning... no idea why you believe my challenge to be a boasting contest. I actually tried to create a set of rules that makes it LESS hardcore and LESS unforgiving than the sea to summit challenge in order to give less experienced players the possibility to participate as well. :?

There's nothing bad about doing a challenge just for fun. I'm doing challenges "just for fun" myself, believe it or not. And no-one is forced to tell their times or post any screenshots anyway. There are probably many people out there who read about these challenges here on the forums and play them but don't bother to create a forum account to post their results afterwards. That's just legit, why shouldn't it be?

The OP's challenge sounds fun and I could well imagine to play it one day. But I have to agree to ThresholdSeven and Chillplayer that the looting limitations might be a bit too complicated, if this challenge is meant to be competitive in nature (= a community challenge instead of a single player challenge). You can't really backtrace or prove which items people have (or have not) looted, maybe permitting all kinds of items would thus be better. But that's the OP's decision to make, if he prefers an "honor"-based system that's fine.

I don't think any competition between different challenges is needed. Everyone can play the challenge he or she likes best (or simply all of them in a row). The more diverse the challenges are, the better. I for one don't find it problematic at all if not all challenges are equally competitive in nature.

It's great to have some community challenges where players can compete against each other, but other challenges may just as well be designed as single player challenges in which you only compete against yourself.

My post wasn't about criticizing your challenge, but about the "Most of the rules in the OPs challenge can't be tested or proven.".

If that is the only point you object to in a challenge, then I claim all the fun you get from a challenge is from comparing your results, not from doing it. You only see it as a competition, not as a thing to do because it is fun in and of itself.

But again, my post wasn't about your challenge, but actually in reponse to the post I actually responded to.

I still don't understand how "Cannot open containers of any kind" is too complicated a rule, but that's another point entirely.

When it comes down to it, I just figured the only people that would participate in this or any other challenge would be people who are interested in doing the challenge for the sake of the challenge, and not just to get their name at the top of a list.

Exactly what I thought.

Trying to make it more difficult for cheaters doesn't mean all the fun is in comparing results. This is the internet after all. Sorry you took it that way.

My post wasn't about criticizing your challenge, but about the "Most of the rules in the OPs challenge can't be tested or proven.".

If that is the only point you object to in a challenge, then I claim all the fun you get from a challenge is from comparing your results, not from doing it. You only see it as a competition, not as a thing to do because it is fun in and of itself.

You're aware that you're setting up a very daring theory about me here, are you?

Much more importantly, you're not getting my point. If you want to do a community challenge (= a challenge that is all about player-to-player-competition inherently and thus has the purpose to declare someone the "winner"), then trying to make the challenge transparent & replicable does indeed have a particular value in my opinion.

If you, on the other hand, just do a single player challenge (= a challenge that is NOT based on player-to-player-competition and only has the purpose to be fun while you play it in private), then transparency is pretty irrelevant ofc.

I can assure you that I personally like - and have fun while playing - both kinds of challenges.

I've been playing several different challenges in the "single player spirit" for more than a year now (e.g. Kraelman's challenge never to enter an interior and some playstyle-related challenges that I imagined myself) without telling anyone about my results or comparing myself to anyone else because that's not the point of a singleplayer challenge.

If your daring theory about my perception of "fun" was right I would not have had any fun playing these single player challenges. Which makes it very questionable for which reasons I would have played them at all.

Maybe you should concentrate a little less on spreading invented nonsense theories about other people (I really see why you took that nickname now) and rather mind your own issues.

@phaedrus: I'd like to apologize for the off topic discussion.

As I've said, it's totally legit if you want to rely on people's sportsmanship (and you're right that none of the other challenges is 100% foolproof either). I guess screenshots, videos and probably even livestreams could theoretically be manipulated given that someone has the required knowledge.

My comment about the possibility to remove the loot limitations was merely a suggestion as I've made the experience that having very few (and intuitively understandable) rules is of great importance if you want people to participate in a challenge. I've shared the rules for a pretty complicated playstyle challenge (a single player challenge, btw) here on these forums a few months ago and it received rather little feedback, most likely because the rules were way too complicated. Indeed much more complicated than your set of rules for example. Which is sth. I'm understanding now but failed to realize back then.

My post wasn't about criticizing your challenge, but about the "Most of the rules in the OPs challenge can't be tested or proven.".

just to clarify, that was I who wrote this, not Scyzara.

When it comes down to it, I just figured the only people that would participate in this or any other challenge would be people who are interested in doing the challenge for the sake of the challenge, and not just to get their name at the top of a list.

Why do you think this is mutual exclusive? What's the point of a race if you can't compare the times to anyone? Had I made the Sea to Summit challenge only for myself I would've been satisfied with my initial time and I had a lot of fun. But seeing that other people can do it faster motivated me to try it again - and I had even more fun. More over, YOU have set your challenge as a competitive challenge and not a personal challenge to bring some variety to the game, or how should one read this:

How fast can you complete the challenge?

We can use the same method of screenshots and such as is being used for the Sea to Summit Challenge

So clearly you wanted to have some sort of competition on the one hand but either deliberately or by being ignorant to the fact that a screenshot proves nothing, you designed the "competition" to be based on honor. And this my friend does not work on the internet in my book, too many cheaters and as much as I like to get motivated to achieve a good result, I like the motivation to be based on reality and not some fantasy result one might post to boost his ego.

The reason I posted my initial response that started some of the fuss was simply because within one day 2-3 challenges were posted and by my count only one was original and new, Scys Screenshot challenge. Yours I thought to be very similar to Scy's but, if I may be blunt, less well thought through and I just didn't saw why there was a need for your challenge. But that's just my opinion and of course people are free to create and participate in any challenges they like, the same as people are still free to voice their opinion about said challenges.

Some general tipps - which you may happily ignore or not: it is much easier to prove something that has to be achieved, gathered or reached than to prove that you didn't pick up something or went somewhere. Complicated rules are just that, complicated. What if someone has a good run but after a week into it he forgets one of the rules because there are so many, does he start over or just ignore it? Things already get fuzzy then. So instead of formulating detailed rules about dos and don'ts, why not generalize them and while you're at it, design the rules to work with the stats screen? E.g instead of saying "don't kill any wolves in ML", just say: don't kill any wolves, instead of don't use your flare gun just say: don't fire any shots. You can still put out many goals that will prolong the run as Scy did but the rules should be simple, memorable and to some extend provable, then you have a fun challenge and a good chance that many people will participate in it.

TL;DR: I do many personal challenges myself, some I stream and some I do totally for myself. But if I participate in a competitive internet challenge I'd like to be able to somewhat trust in the results otherwise I see no sense in participating competitively and will - if at all - do such a challenge only for myself.

So clearly you wanted to have some sort of competition on the one hand but either deliberately or by being ignorant to the fact that a screenshot proves nothing, you designed the "competition" to be based on honor.

If I was ignorant to the fact, why did I post this yesterday then?

There are several ways to bypass the rules of the other challenges. How can anyone even prove the screenshots they post are coming from the same run?

And yes, I did intend it to be on honor, because that is the only way any of these challenges can be played. There is absolutely nothing you can do to prevent people from cheating at any kind of challenge you can think up. In fact, every result from every challenge thus far must be taken on faith that it is accurate and legitimate.

There will always be cheaters out there. It's a bummer you let them bother you so much and allow even just their existence to prevent you from doing things you might otherwise do.

There's a difference between a Challenge being exploitable by technical means (e.g manipulating screenshots in the Sea to Summit challenge) and one that's primarely based on you saying the truth. For the former you need to be activily willing to cheat and put some work into it, manipulating the screenshots takes a lot of effort and one must ask himself at some point doing editing the picture, what the heck is wrong with him.

The latter on the other hand can be spoiled totally by accident, as I said, you only need to forget about a rule and not tell anybody about it.

Hope you can see the difference.