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Troxism

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About Troxism

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  1. I see these threads pop up every so often, and there are often a lot of misconceptions on what actually limits survival time and by how much. So here is my latest attempt to try to summarise what is a fairly complicated issue. What actually limits survival time? Well the obvious things to look into would be: Cloth (ie running out of clothing/bandages), Birch Saplings (for arrows to hunt with), Scrap Metal (to fish with), Firewood (to make food/water), and Firestarting materials (to actually make fires). So let us (briefly) go through them. Even on Interloper there is literally hundreds of cloth (in the process of actually counting it, but this isn't an exaggeration at all), and well over 800+ on Stalker and below, so it's not hard at all to stay in hat so to speak (keep in mind wearing clothes makes them degrade about 10x faster then not, so if you are really going for the long haul you would only wear a hat when your frostbite risk got above a certain level, so probably only 1-2 hours a day at most) And you can still avoid frostbite even without a hat, just requires more careful play. Napkin math shows that if you only wear your hat 6 hours a day (I really can't imagine you staying out longer then that on a daily basis anyways so this is already an exaggeration), a Wool Toque would lose about 0.325% durability a day. That is 1 cloth every 230 days to repair, if you wait until it is at 25%. Now obviously this is a bit of an ideal case (you may not want to let it get that low encase you accidentally forget to take it off before a wolf struggle and end up losing it, or you get caught in a blizzard and lose some durability on it), but I think you can see that even with only 50 pieces of cloth, and assuming about 5 times less efficient play (ie 1 cloth every 50 days lets say), you could have a hat for 2500 days. And the total cloth count on Interloper is closer to 400+ then 50 and that doesn't even include beach combing, which would probably give you enough cloth to save your hat if you played AT all carefully. *Note obviously cabin fever forces sleeping in a cave sometimes if the weather doesn't cooperate to make an outdoor fire for 4+ days in a row with the magnifying lens*, but you can just stay warm in a bearskin bedroll in the back of a cave (keep in mind backs of caves don't get colder, so they give an effective +28C temp late game on Interloper, so it's not that hard to stay warm in one on the warmer maps (ie not TWM or PV) even without wearing a lot of clothes) and you won't have to wear your hat while you sleep to avoid frostbite. But even if you are super paranoid, like I said even with the much more inefficient consumption of cloth you can easily have a hat for thousands of days even without beach combing. So the argument that you would run out of hat eventually doesn't really pan out if you actually play as conservatively as possible and don't wear your hat unless you absolutely need to and don't let it get mauled by wolves. *Outdoor fires (and boiling/cooking in 'marathons') should be your main method of avoiding Cabin Fever, as this prevents you from wasting as much cloth keeping your bedroll in good shape, and saves your clothes (since you can strip naked safely next to a roaring fire). So sleeping in a cave isn't actually the ideal/optimal strategy unless you are unlucky with the weather and can't make a lens fire and therefore don't really have a choice as you don't want to waste a match for no reason. *Another note: I heavily gloss over the whole question of 'should I wear non crafted clothing as underlayers in other slots to help keep myself warm'. Basically, late game in Interloper it's unlikely this would keep you warm enough to make a real difference (it's just too cold even on the warmer maps on most days, and the difference between -10C and -20C feels like is basically nothing in practice as you start freezing almost immediately either way due to the greatly sped up warmth drain at the same 'Feels Like' temp on Interloper compared to Stalker/Voyageur and it doesn't matter if you are -1C or -100C feels like if you are freezing anyways), as on Interloper your condition % is your real temperature bar. But even if you chose to maintain clothing for 'realism', as long as you didn't wear it indoors, you could still make it last thousands of days due to all the cloth you can harvest. And at the end of the day, all you really 'need' clothing for is to avoid frostbite so you can just use crafted clothing only plus a hat. *I don't really have good numbers on Beachcombing for Interloper, so I gloss over it. Depending on the rate at which this gives you cloth, this could actually mean you never run out if you play conservatively enough, but I have no solid information on this. Food wise: If you allow starvation, you can live off just rabbits as well, but even if you aren't willing to exploit (ie you ban all starving like I do), there are over 80 birch saplings (Counted 86 in one game, and I assume Broken Railroad has even more, since that was from before launch). There is far more Maple then you could ever break bows (unless you intentionally shoot arrows into snow to preserve arrow durability while wasting bow durability) shooting all the arrows. Each Sapling makes 3 arrows, and each arrow can kill 4 animals if you don't miss* (lets assume some missing and say 3). If you are going for the super long term, 86 saplings * 3 arrows each * 3 bear kills per arrow before it breaks * 10 days of food per bear = 7740 days of meat. This is again, assuming you never starve, that every bear only yields 30kg of meat (sometimes it can be much more), that you miss some shots, and that you always burn about 3300 calories a day (you can do better then that with Efficient Machine, or just playing a more sedentary lifestyle as you would in the end game). And that isn't even including the (again literally not an exaggeration) over 900 scrap metal available* you can make into hooks to fish with*. I don't really have much information on fishing since I never actually do it, but 2700 fishing tackle is going to take you pretty far at Fishing 5 with only a very small breaking chance I can imagine*. *There is actually well over 1000 Scrap Metal even on Interloper, but I assume you use some of it on tool repairs and other things, so 900 is a 'safe estimate' for how much you would have to make hooks with. In the Upper and Lower Dam ALONE since the Wintermute update, there is now 725 Scrap Metal and 84 Cloth you can get by breaking stuff apart, even on Interloper Mode. There is 134 cloth (but that count was again, many updates ago, but I don't think anything has changed) in the PV Farmhouse alone too, and this doesn't even include all the Scrap Metal on DP (which has an absurd amount as well: 264 at my last count but that was many updates ago)), and all the cloth in other places (there is about 516 cloth on CH on Stalker mode, but it varies based on burned building RNG). Interloper does have more burned out buildings, so you do get less cloth then other modes, but there is still a LOT as you can see. And I'm not even including all the other places with cloth/scrap, just the biggest treasure troves. *For bears, it's very hard to 1 shot kill them as you need to hit a very specific spot, but you can let them bleed out which is functionally the same thing as a 1 shot kill as long as you prevent yourself from being mauled while the bear runs around which isn't that difficult. Although if you hit them (or any animal but a rabbit) in the wrong area, the arrow will 'bounce off' and not cause bleeding, so I count that in 'occasional misses'. *You can use a Hammer to break the fishing hole to preserve your more valuable tools. The hammer can be repaired with just Fir Firewood (and you can get 3 pieces of that only using 3% of an Improvised Hatchet so this is very efficient), and the only cost of limited resources is that 3% Hatchet Durability per 90% Hammer durability, and the approx 7.5% toolkit durability to repair that much, which is only about 1/4 of a piece of scrap metal. And since you only have to repair your toolkits once you are down to your last 2, and there are so many in the world even on Interloper, you can probably go thousands of days before you have to repair your toolkits anyways. So the amount of Scrap Metal you need to spend on tools to keep breaking open the fishing hole is basically negligible. Now yeah, I'm oversimplifying, since you would kill SOME deer/wolves for pelts/safety, but like I said, not even including Broken Railroad saplings, and that isn't including supplementing your food supply with rabbit trapping to reduce the amount of hunting you need to do, or like I said, you could just allow exploiting starvation and then you literally could eat nothing but bear for well over 30000 days, and could easily live off rabbits forever (and that isn't even including fishing like I said). So food isnt' even close to a limiting factor even before you get into 'risky' strats like stealing wolf kills to get free food. Medicine obviously depends on how carefully you play (bandages are the limiting factor here, since they consume cloth; antiseptic can be replaced with antibiotics to treat the infection*). But like I said, there is a lot of cloth. *Even without the Broken Railroad which I don't have numbers for, over 250 doses of Antibiotics are variable from ONLY reishi mushrooms (ie assuming you don't find a single dose of antibiotics from loot or they all decay before you can use them). And over 150 doses of OMB antiseptic. At least if you loot the entire world. Since not even every wolf attack causes the 'Blood Loss' condition, you would have to go through over 400 wolf struggles to actually run out of medicine (in which case I seriously have to question your competency as a long term run tends to be very safe and sedentary), and at that point the problem would be all the wasted cloth on bandages, not the medicine. Firewood is easy. With Firestarting 5, and only making outdoor fires in wind-safe areas (caves, stoves, ect) to get the duration bonus, you need only a handful of sticks per day to cook food/boil water (obviously you stockpile tons of sticks for marathon sessions, but I am talking averaging it out over each day; you need about 4 sticks a day to cook meat* (again assuming no starvation so 3kg of meat a day) and about 4-6 more to boil water (water consumption depends heavily on how much walking/sprinting you do that day vs other activities), although this heavily varies based on the temperature you are cooking at which affects the fire duration bonus outdoors, and obviously assumes firestarting 5 for the 50% bonus as well). And coal respawns fairly quick in some locations. Even in the late game firewood isn't even close to a problem. 1 piece of coal would basically cover you for an entire day for example, and there are plenty of 'circuits' you can do on various maps that can gather you 80+ sticks in a single go, so even with them taking a few days to respawn later in the game, you will have enough firewood to live on. *If you don't believe this number, keep in mind Firestarting 5 is a 50% bonus to duration, and then the outdoor duration bonus can go up VERY high as well, and they are multiplicative with each other, so with Cooking 5 cutting cooking time as well, you actually can pull this off in some cases if it's cold enough outside. In terms of firestarting: you can make fire for free with the Magnifying lens, so you don't need to worry about a 'perma fire'. It's easy enough to do long boiling/cooking sessions (hint: exhaustion doesn't prevent you from doing this) to boil/cook enough water/food for 20+ days, so you don't have to worry too much about weather RNG for the lens, as you literally have 20 days for your next chance (you could cook longer term, but eventually meat will rot, so even with food poisoning immunity from Cooking 5 there is a practical limit of about 30 or so days you can prepare food in advance for). And even if you somehow get horribly unlucky and end up having to burn a match (and tbh in the late game you should have water stockpiled for literally hundreds of days as it doesn't spoil anyways and you have nothing better to do), there are over 150-200+ matches/firestriker charges/flares you can use to start a fire even on Interloper. So you would have to get extremely unlucky over 100 times which is astonishingly unlikely even over thousands of days (in my experience you get lens weather every 2-4 days even late game on Interloper). Heck, even if you refused the use the lens completely for some reason, those 200 matches/flares/firestriker charges could last you 200*30 = 6000 days ON THEIR OWN if used conservatively. So running out of fire starting supplies isn't even close to a problem. Edit: I completely forgot about tools. Basically, once you have Carcass Harvesting 5 (which isn't hard to get at all), all carcasses count as 'not frozen', so you can harvest anything by hand. Harvesting a hide by hand takes exactly the same amount of time as with an Improvised Knife (and you don't have any better tool on Interloper for this purpose), so you will always hand harvest hides on non frozen bodies, and like I said, all bodies are 'not frozen' at Carcass Harvesting 5. This already saves a lot of durability as harvesting the hide takes quite a bit of time and durability loss is based on harvesting time. For harvesting the gut, yeah the knife is much faster, but you only need 1 gut per hide you collect and this only degrades the tool very slowly because it doesn't take that long. In the worst case, you can just mass farmrabbits and harvest their guts by hand indoors if you really are running low on gut and want to save tool durability. For harvesting meat, hand harvesting is an option, but is painfully slow (and quartering the carcass to harvest indoors still uses some durability, although this is actually still the most tool efficient method), so you would probably use the knife or hacksaw (hacksaw is slower on non frozen carcasses, but only by 25% compared to the Improvised Knife, and doesn't require cloth to repair (since you have to recraft the knife, and as shown by the numbers, Cloth is more of a concern then Scrap metal). You need tools to repair the hacksaw, but tools only degrade 2-3% per repair (25% on the hacksaw), and you can repair tools with another set of tools for 30% durability per scrap metal (last I checked, but that was a long time ago), so you only need a trivial amount of scrap metal to keep your tools to repair your hacksaw in good shape. But all this talk of conserving scrap metal is pretty moot since as I said above, there is almost 1000 scrap metal just in the Dam/DP. While that is the bulk of the Scrap Metal in the game world, there is still quite a bit more. So you can easily keep at least your Hacksaw repaired (use Whetstones on the Knife early in the game, and then later in the game keep your Hatchet repaired with them for Wolf fighting) with just Scrap and use that for harvesting meat, use your hands for harvesting hides, and hand harvest gut from rabbits indoors. So running out of tools isn't really an issue either. Or you could just use the Knife, and use 2 Scrap and 1 Cloth for every knife (you can harvest 1 scrap from the knife, so it effectively only costs 2 to make another), but this is kind of wasteful on cloth. I could go into more detail on tool durability loss (Improvised Tools lose durability much faster, and do more analysis on the exact harvesting rates with different methods meaning there is some reasoning/thinking involved in how to perfectly optimise, but like I said, it's honestly a moot point with how much Scrap Metal there is anyways), but this is already pretty long so I'll refrain. Sorry for being a bit vague in parts, but that is what happens when trying to summarise things. Realistically you probably would run out of something eventually (because you wouldn't play perfectly, or hold on to 'luxuries' like extra clothing), but as you can see, even on Interloper, you can easily make it thousands of days, and your #1 enemy would be boredom (tbh I would feel bad for anyone who actually played a 5000+ day game), as after a certain point doing LITERALLY anything else with your time is going to be more interesting and only the most stubborn/persistent person would bother continuing. Which is why you don't actually see long Interloper runs even though they are 'easy' (just tedious): the early game is literally 50x more fun then the late game, so even if you want to keep playing this game, you are better off just restarting after the first 20-50 days on Interloper, esp if you are very experienced on the mode. And yes it's ironic that I said I am 'briefly' going over this stuff. What I mean by this: I am not fully explaining all the strategy behind a super long term run and all the little tricks you would do, I mostly gloss over those parts or only vaguely talk about them. So there is some 'trust me I know' involved, which obviously isn't ideal when trying to make a point, which is why I don't consider this to be a full explanation/look at the subject.
  2. Honestly that isn't even far to follow. Wolves and bears can come from an absolutely massive radius due to smell in some cases (like out of line of sight), sometimes even when you don't have 3 scent bars. Smell indicator only shows up when you have a certain amount of smelly things. However while it takes 6 pieces of cooked meat to get to 1 scent bar, in reality there is a HUGE difference between carrying ANYTHING that smells (fresh gut, cooked meat/fish or raw meat/fish) and nothing at all. Esp with bears who basically seem to relentlessly track you from a HUGE distance if you have anything at all that smells on you (very easy to see since if you drop that item they immediately turn around and then turn around to follow you again the moment you pick it back up). Wolves are actually almost blind to you if you aren't carrying any meat/fish/gut, even on Interloper (and even if they see you will easily give up and you can literally walk away from them without even worrying). I've literally more then once walked straight through a pack of 3 wolves on Interloper (well obviously if you get very close they will instantly charge) and just casually walked past with them only following for a short time. It's actually amazing to me how afraid people are of wolves in this game considering you can usually ditch a wolf with simply walking away from it (you just have to keep your distance and not be so encumbered that you move too slowly, breaking line of sight also helps a lot although occasionally a wolf will be very persistent). Tbh the way the smell indicator should work is it should show 1 bar if you have ANYTHING that smells on you, because that seems to make by far the biggest difference. You pretty much cannot carry anything around bears for example (unless it's a very open area and you are fine with having to play 'dodge the bear' the whole time) even though it doesn't show the indicator.
  3. There is no need to worry about 'limited' sandbox duration. All you technically need to live forever in this game is a Magnifying Lens, which never degrades, and re spawning stuff like animals/sticks. And while scraping a living off just that would be a challenge, trust me, you will be sick of playing long long long long long before you actually run out of all these other supplies that make things much easier (like cloth for clothes); all those things can be stretched to thousands of days on Interloper if you play conservatively, much less on Stalker or below. The fun part of this game is the start, don't be too eager to get to the end.
  4. It's pretty hard to do a very long Interloper run, because it's so damn boring past 50-100 days (seriously, long runs in this game on any difficulty give you IRL cabin fever). In theory you can basically live forever on Interloper (if you really want to scrape by with nothing but your magnifying lens, crafted clothes, and your bare hands plus a hat), and you have enough supplies to live 'comfortably' (ie with actually clothing/a bow + arrows to make hunting easy) for about 3000-5000 days depending on how carefully you manage things, and that isn't even factoring in anything you get from beachcombing. So even if you don't want to scrape by with nothing but a lens/your bare hands, you can easily do a thousands of days run. I don't think most people realize how much of a game changer having lvl 5 in Carcass Harvesting, Cooking, Firestarting, and Archery actually is (it really makes everything very easy, and with lvl 5 carcass harvesting there is little need for tools at all). And for that matter, I don't think most people realise you can make it to day 200 on Interloper only using 2-3 matches in total (and no firestriker charges), and all of those only in the first 20 days (although obviously it depends on luck at the start to use that few, but even if you are very very very unlucky you wouldn't need more then about 12 matches to get started and then never use one the rest of the game), meaning matches aren't even close to the actual limiting factor. (there are over 200 matches on Interloper if you count all the firestriker charges/flares you can use to make fires) I only mention this because the common response I hear from people inexperienced with interloper is that 'well you would run out of matches eventually). Clothing wise: Not like it makes any difference if it is -100C or -10C Feels Like outside so clothing hardly matters much past day 50 on Interloper anyways outside of the minimum required to avoid frostbite, and even that can technically dealt with, it just makes things way harder then they need to be if you choose to go completely naked; crafted clothing is basically free to repair, since there is hundreds of scrap metal to make tackles out of, so the only thing would be having to occasionally use cloth to repair a hat. But if you only wear the hat as needed to avoid frostbite (ie only wear it if outside for a while otherwise keep it off to save durability) and never get it damaged by wolves, the cloth consumption would be so low as to be negligible; it is likely beach combing would give you enough and even if it didn't you wouldn't run out of cloth for thousands of days this way unless you wasted it all early on/constantly waste bandages. Edit: And I completely forgot about fishing too: you can fish with some of the hundreds of scrap metal, which would also stretch your 'easy survival' past running out of birch for arrows (birch and cloth are the biggest limiting factors on 'easy life' so conserving them is the most important thing if you are going for a thousands of days run). Heck if you were allowing starvation (ie exploiting) there really is no reason you couldn't live forever off just rabbits, which you don't need anything but a lens to cook and your bare hands to catch/harvest, so you wouldn't even need to mess with stealing wolf kills which is slightly risky. But either way, I don't think anyone cares about all the minutiae of such a run, because I don't think anyone is ever going to bother, so I'm not going to go into full detail about how you could go about 'playing conservatively'. I just like to ramble about stuff. But really, I would be surprised if anyone actually bothered to keep playing past 100-200 days on Interloper, not because of it being a challenge, but because it's just so repetitive and boring at that point, and the only way you can really die is a massive screw up if you are already good enough to make it that far.
  5. Do not think the fire duration bonus for being outdoors is based on location, it seems to have to do with temperature change around the fire (which basically means time) combined with fire bonus of the fire itself up to some kind of cap, but I have never done a detailed analysis to figure out exactly what is going on. Sometimes you get a huge bonus in a fishing hut, sometimes you get almost nothing. Sometimes I've even gotten the bonus in the Mountaineer's Hut fireplace, but have been unable to consistently replicate this. Idk, it's probably the least known mechanic in this game overall (and most people not knowing about it is why they tend to struggle with cabin fever; if you know about it you realise you should make every fire outdoors anyways which pretty much solves Cabin Fever before it starts in most cases). Most people just never pay attention to fire duration and details of that sort. And yeah, wind is pretty cheap sometimes. Was even worse when there was the bug that made it so any time the wind changed direction it 'swept' all the angles between it's old position and the new one, blowing out any fire you had in that 'arc' even if your fire was sheltered from the original and final position. Was pretty annoying when you played outdoors only (basically meant you could only make fires in caves/huts/outdoor stoves/barrels), but I think they have since fixed that bug at least.
  6. Interloper has a temp drop of 20C that increases linearly between day 5 and 50 (so 0.44C drop a day between those times) Stalker has a temp drop of 15C between day 20 and 200 (0.0833C a day) Voyageur has a temp drop of 10C between day 25 (I think, not sure) and 200, so about 0.057C a day. I am not very sure about the voyageur values, but tbh, outside of Interloper the temp drop is irrelevant (unless you want to sit outside in blizzards), because you have access to far better clothing below Interloper anyways. In addition, the same 'feels like' temp drains your heat bar much much faster on Interloper, so on Stalker you can easily stay out for a while even if your 'feels like' is -5C, while on Interloper this doesn't give you much time before you start to freeze. So minor negative 'feels like' don't really matter as much below Interloper. You can easily walk around outside during most of the day on Stalker even on day 100-150 with decent clothing. So between that and better clothes, and +5C temp (and the fact that you have an extra 150 days to do any looting you want to get done), makes the temp drop on Stalker more of a formality in my experience (after the decay update I looted absolutely every single item in the entire gameworld in a Stalker game, without even doing it 'in a rush' and I was easily done well before 150 days much less 200 days). Basically the only effect is you can't go out during the coldest parts of the day and that is it (and in the late game, that is hardly an issue). As for the other elements of decay, tbh I've never really noticed them. I think on average you get a few more blizzards and sticks take a little longer to respawn, but neither of these is significant enough for me to actually have noticed a big difference (it certainly doesn't force you to move around or rely on alternatives or do anything special if you aren't extremely wasteful/poorly prepared). Blizzards don't last any longer from what I can tell (be careful with this; the map you are on has a HUGE effect on blizzard lengths, TWM has the shortest ones by a huge margin, PV the longest, so if you swap maps around you will experience varying lengths that have nothing to do with world decay)
  7. Cabin Fever is a mostly trivial mechanic, since you already are encouraged to do all your cooking/boiling outdoors to gain the fire duration bonus (it isn't a 'duration bonus' per say, but your fire time drops slower if it is considered an outdoor fire... and that means you for example want to make fires in the outdoor parts of caves or in fishing huts), and if you do this semi regularly (I mean, you need to boil/cook a certain amount just to stay alive, so...) you will never get cabin fever. Cabin Fever is a lot more aggressive on Interloper (if you get risk you will quickly get cabin fever if you don't go outside), so the solution is to do the above and never get risk at all. The one complaint I have about Cabin Fever is this: crafting Wolfskin/Bearskin Coats will often give you Cabin Fever if you don't take 'breaks' to boil stuff outdoors (which can be annoying if the weather doesn't cooperate and give you clear weather to use the lens, forcing you to just run out, run back in to warm up, run out to try to prevent Cabin Fever risk before it strikes, or head to a cave and chill out there). Doesn't really make sense to get Cabin Fever while actively doing something, but no simple solution either. As for 'hibernation' I mean tbh I have no idea why Cabin Fever was actually put into the game (it's mostly a mechanic that catches beginners off guard, but is trivial for experienced players to avoid). Because if it was to solve hibernation then tbh the devs should have first fixed the whole starving exploitation which was and is FAR more of an issue (literally can't believe an actual exploit is allowed to stay in the game when the fix is trivial), yet absolutely nothing has been done to fix that for years. And the threat of Cabin Fever has certainly never made me feel like I should move on from an area; I always end up doing that for other reasons (boredom, loot cataloguing ect). I mean it is what it is. This game has a bunch of mechanics that don't really make sense or actively encourage exploitation. Heck, even the recent change to make you unable to climb while encumbered once again punishes you for not starving (because meat weighs a lot and by starving you can cut your food requirement to between about 1/3 to 1/5 of what it is supposed to be saving you a good bit of weight if you are going on an extended trip). So does the 'can't rest while not tired mechanic', since starving players can bypass it (because starving lowers your max fatigue after a while, letting you sleep as much as you like at that point), while non starving players are forced to use the far less efficient pass time (that consumes extra calories and water, while again, a starving player doesn't even have to pay that extra calorie cost anyways). Anyways, I could go on in much further detail about how broken some mechanics are in this game/explain more of what I mean above, but I don't think anyone cares to read an essay and it's wayyyy off topic. As for a 'vitamin mechanic'; this would basically just arbitrarily cap survival times (when currently the game doesn't really put a cap on those at all if you play carefully), unless there was some form of respawn implemented for it (which wouldn't really make much sense). But to bring all this back around to the original topic: my feelings on Cabin Fever are a resounding 'meh'. I don't care too much about the mechanic either way as it has almost no effect on my gameplay for all the above reasons.
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