COMPASS for navigation (necessity)

[AmericanSteel]

You are just not making any sense at all. Do you have any real experience using a compass, land navigation or map recons?

Yes.

How long does it take, in real-time, to walk from one end of a map, say ML, to the other end? I don't know. 10 minutes? No idea. Let's say 10 minutes. 15.

And you're saying that if we go somewhere you don't know, similar to TLD, so not just a forest, but a place with extremely distinct features, and I plot out a 15 minutes by 15 minutes square in terms of walking distance, so, what, a 1.5 square km area, you need a compass and a map to not get lost in it? Seriously? I don't buy that.

Afterthought: If you do need a map in a cordoned-off 1.5 square km area in real life, what kind of map are you using, what scale? 1:5000? Like a city map, so a km is 20 cm or what.

Not a map like this one.

[spoil][attachment=0]map.jpg[/attachment][/spoil]

Which is what, about, 1:50000? Then you have another problem, you have to justify both the fact that it's a map of a small square surrounded by a void, and the fact that it has a scale that just happens to be what you exactly need for such a small area. I don't see it, don't see a map, don't see a compass. Sorry. That's just me.

I've crossed mountain ranges with compass and map, and I can't fathom needing either for a cordoned-off, 1.5 square km area. I just can't, that's just me. Mileage varies.

It is my understanding the total game area is 15 sq klicks. Could I see myself getting lost in 15 sq klicks on a clear day? No. Have lost my way in white out conditions in distances covering a football field? Yes. There have been an untold number of reports of campers going 5 to 10 minutes off a path and search crews finding them dead days later (from exposure) only a few miles away. People die out in the woodline with civilization just a ridge line away, because they don't have a clue where they came from. Compass present, it becomes a non-issue.

[octavian]

It is my understanding the total game area is 15 sq klicks.

Split into three maps (the transitions are small), three boxes. Not all the same size. Just so we're not misrepresenting the issue.

There's no point in arguing. Sometimes we agree, sometimes we don't. Have you played Miasmata? People would want that into TLD, right? I mean, if you played it you know what I mean, and that's what people want but they can't or don't say it directly. At least if they clearly said it. We want Miasmata-type navigation.

Map, compass, watch. Landmark triangulation. That would make half the forums explode with excitement and praise. :lol:

I mean, to have this in TLD.

[spoil][/spoil]

So maybe they should add it then. Make people happy. At the end of the day, what does it matter. It's just a video game.

[toebar]

There have been an untold number of reports of campers going 5 to 10 minutes off a path and search crews finding them dead days later (from exposure) only a few miles away. People die out in the woodline with civilization just a ridge line away, because they don't have a clue where they came from. Compass present, it becomes a non-issue.

Not exactly a non-issue -- :twisted: I suspect at least half of those campers would not have the first clue of what to do with a compass. They'd still have no idea where they came from, and no idea either A) how to use a compass, or B) what direction to go anyway.

[AmericanSteel]

... Have you played Miasmata? People would want that into TLD, right? I mean, if you played it you know what I mean, and that's what people want but they can't or don't say it directly. At least if they clearly said it. We want Miasmata-type navigation.

Map, compass, watch. Landmark triangulation. That would make half the forums explode with excitement and praise. :lol:

I mean, to have this in TLD.

[spoil][/spoil]

So maybe they should add it then. Make people happy. At the end of the day, what does it matter. It's just a video game.

Never played it. I was pretty happy with something as simple as the compass feature in Metro 2033. I think everyone would kill for that bullet lighter in right out now TLD

As I said though, if they don't want to include a compass because of ongoing event... then ok. However,if it is going to be really off and we some how turn the electricity back on in story mode BUT we could not "use" a compass.... then... well... I think it would just be a poor reflection on what is a great game.

[smilinglyer]

Could we possibly get a compass to use?

---

ADMIN NOTE: post merged with Compass discussion thread

[toebar]

Could we possibly get a compass to use?

lol. nice.

Yes, let's have a compass. In game, the needle will just spin, but at least we will have it :lol:

edit: Just noticed the Admin note that this was merged from another thread-- I thought someone was just being cute, after the extended discussion above

[danicusrex]

Could we possibly get a compass to use?

lol. nice.

Yes, let's have a compass. In game, the needle will just spin, but at least we will have it :lol:

You could break it down and use the components for something, maybe?

[SteveP]

How long does it take, in real-time, to walk from one end of a map, say ML, to the other end? I don't know. 10 minutes? No idea. Let's say 10 minutes. 15.

It is not possible to walk across the entire map during a blizzard in the game unless perhaps you have already managed to secure all of the best fur clothing. You might try navigating by VISIBLE (near) features, IFF you know where you are. When you spawn you don't know where you are. If you get caught in a blizzard, there are spots on the map where there are no easy navigation features such as near the clear cut. In real life, you can get lost within 10 meters of safety in a blizzard. That is why in days when we had such blizzards, we would string ropes between various out buildings especially on the prairies in a field. Even a compass is of little use in such circumstances because your time to live is measured in minutes or hours in a storm if you are poorly dressed.

The point is not to make the game too easy; a compass would not do that. It would however enable you to head in the correct direction if say you are in a fishing hut and need to find your way to shelter because you have run out of fire fuel. I just make it a point to leave a few items on the ice to mark the direction I need to go in case of storm. I compensate.

The point is that a compass would let you practice real survival skills. It therefore makes the game play better. I completely and categorically disagree that it would make the game significantly easier but at least it could keep you moving in one direction in a storm. The blizzards in TLD can be pretty nasty; movement is extremely slow due to the wind. You cannot see most of the navigation features such as distinctive cliffs, mountains or trees.

And you're saying that if we go somewhere you don't know, similar to TLD, so not just a forest, but a place with extremely distinct features, and I plot out a 15 minutes by 15 minutes square in terms of walking distance, so, what, a 1.5 square km area, you need a compass and a map to not get lost in it? Seriously? I don't buy that.

My dear: For you or I who are used to being in the bush, yes we don't get lost in 2 square kilometers (usually) :-) But never say never, right?

However... It is possible to become lost once loosing hold of your safety line in a severe Canadian or Siberian blizzard in about 5 meters. If you are in dense brush (see videos I uploaded showing the Real Canadian Bush) everything looks the same. You may be deep in a dense brush with poor visibility (visibility 500 meters) and you can become completely disoriented. Many of us travel the bush and we blaze a trail or we stay on a visible trail with plenty of landmarks (streams, roads, cutlines, swales, peaks and so forth) so we don't get lost. Nevertheless, I do not wish to be out 1 km from any road or safety in a storm in winter in our Canadian North. Rural Alberta can kill you in -40 weather very easily especially if you are out without a decent jacket and boots. It is the same in Siberia except -60 kills even faster.

There are really only a few places where you can get badly lost in the game: Near the Clear Cut during bad weather and out on the Coastal Highway Lake during bad weather. It is as easy as forgetting to mark the direction to safety when you start to harvest a deer. Oh and Pleasant Valley near the Draft Dodger's Cabin also during poor weather. Eventually we gamers learn how to identify something to find our spot but it can be so frustrating. When you first spawn, you also will have to move around and have considerable familiarity with the "map" but since that is luck of the draw, I don't much care if I die at this stage due to ridiculous weather.

Add compass or not. I don't care. But I think it will improve the game play for reasons given: to make it more realistic and to practice orienteering skills we normally should use. In the game using the keyboard or controller, it is simple to go in a straight line. In real life, it is not possible without bearings or land marks. You will walk in a circle. I think the game should make us walk in circles on purpose!! How about that?? And maybe a compass that works sometimes and other times it spins.

[octavian]

@SteveP:I don't want to argue with you, I just want Hinterland's vision, the one that I paid for.

[SteveP]

I don't want to argue with you, I just want Hinterland's vision, the one that I paid for.

This is the Alpha wishlist. We do have input to how we want the game to go. This is a spirited discussion. Perhaps both of us can be patronizing huh? but you are right. Patronizing comments do little for a calm and cool discussion. You are defending your view well. I hope I also do. Please don't take anything I say personally. I am sixty, old and sometimes less patient than when I was 30. You have made many good points on the forum and I read many of them so please let me pay a compliment to you. You have my respect Octavian.

Steve

[jumpingbean77]

Don't know if this is already mentioned in the thread but we DO already have a compass in the game.

Drop a arrow and a axe and you have a compass,

please try it out, they will drop in the compass direction every! time without exception.

You are lost in direction, stop, drop the axe, and you will know the general direction to go.

[jackattack]

Bethany has already remarked that this is something likely to be programmed away in a future update.

[dctrjons]

Just my two cents, I think they should add a compass, and it should be useless. Aye it would be time spent on a useless item but it would add to the world... maybe it always spins or maybe it has no pole and the needle jostles as you move.

[Dirmagnos]

First of all ,that talk about compass being unusable due to geomagnetic event being active is nonsense. Birds use a thing called magnetoception for navigation, that is based on magnetic fields.

So if anomaly would be ongoing, ravens would be having extremely hard time to stay alive, not to mention freely flying around.

In addition to that, severe prolonged magnetic disturbance would have a devastating effects even on human organism. Vertigo is a given in that situation.

Having no means of proper orientation in game makes whole thing annoying, not difficult. I just use custom made maps for game. Giving an option for players, like "no-hud" or "no-map" or "no-whatver" for "immersion" nuts is a good business. Forcing such options on all players is just bad form.

Second, regarding orientation. Try to orient in a fog in the middle of the lake. You dont need to 15 square miles to get lost. You can literally get lost between 3 trees in 30 square meters area if you have no directional perception.

[Spottdrossel]

First of all ,that talk about compass being unusable due to geomagnetic event being active is nonsense. Birds use a thing called magnetoception for navigation, that is based on magnetic fields.

So if anomaly would be ongoing, ravens would be having extremely hard time to stay alive, not to mention freely flying around.

In addition to that, severe prolonged magnetic disturbance would have a devastating effects even on human organism. Vertigo is a given in that situation.

Who said the fictional effect in the game was "severe"?

The normal magnetic field of the Earth has between 30 and 60µT.

Even MRT machines with 1 - 1.5T (that's 16,000 - 25,000 times stronger) do not induce vertigo due to electro-magnetic interference. Such effects are ocurring around 3T or more.

So unless we assume that somehow the magnetic field increased by a factor of 40,000 or more, humans wouldn't notice it.

But you're right, a compass would help a lot.

How about GPS, some interactive online map or errecting huge signs with illuminated arrows pointing directly home?

Any of that helpful, too?

[Dirmagnos]

Who said the fictional effect in the game was "severe"?

Id say emp strong enough to fry electronics in a plane counts as severe.

And attempt to ridicule of an opinion instead of any actual argument is a great way to go. Kudos. /sarcasm off

[danicusrex]

It could have been severe for an instant, with lesser lingering aftereffects.

Having a compass would ruin a lot of this game's appeal as far as I am concerned. And as far as "just don't use it", that's a lot easier said than done.

[Foxen]

Having a compass would ruin a lot of this game's appeal as far as I am concerned. And as far as "just don't use it", that's a lot easier said than done.

Imo it wouldn't do anything negative to the game because...and that's my opinion to your second point:

Those who want to play without it will surely do it.

I mean...what's so hard on saying 'no' to it if you decide to play without it at the beginning?

[Spottdrossel]

Who said the fictional effect in the game was "severe"?

Id say emp strong enough to fry electronics in a plane counts as severe.

And attempt to ridicule of an opinion instead of any actual argument is a great way to go. Kudos. /sarcasm off

So showing that even MRT machines with an electro-magnetic field 4 orders of magnitude stronger than Earth's don't cause the effects you claim would happen is not an actual argument?

And that's not even speculation, that's empirical data from thousands of hospitals all around the world.

Maybe you just want to believe what you like and discount everything else as ridiculous and irrelevant.

[danicusrex]

Having a compass would ruin a lot of this game's appeal as far as I am concerned. And as far as "just don't use it", that's a lot easier said than done.

Imo it wouldn't do anything negative to the game because...and that's my opinion to your second point:

Those who want to play without it will surely do it.

I mean...what's so hard on saying 'no' to it if you decide to play without it at the beginning?

Because if a situation gets desperate enough, that willpower might suddenly evaporate and now you're using that compass rather than start over. I'd rather not even have the option to use that as a crutch.

[Dirmagnos]

So showing that even MRT machines with an electro-magnetic field 4 orders of magnitude stronger than Earth's don't cause the effects you claim would happen is not an actual argument?

And that's not even speculation, that's empirical data from thousands of hospitals all around the world.

Maybe you just want to believe what you like and discount everything else as ridiculous and irrelevant.

Except that people stay in MRI machines no longer than 90 minutes and they are not under enormous amount of stress. MRI is a short-term localized controlled targeted procedure, that cant be compared even remotely to something that would have global effect.

And on empirical data part, there is also plenty of data on how magnet field fluctuations, like those caused by solar storms for example, can have severe effect on human biology.