COMPASS for navigation (necessity)

[SonoftheThrone]

You have access to a massive, ever-present and always available solar compass... just look at the shadows cast by the trees, then see what time of day it is; the sun rises from the eastern horizon and sets behind the western one.

At night, you do NOT have access to the solar compass, nor when fog is present. The sun cannot be seen....especially NOT in a blizzard! You need a compass. In real life, I'd carry a compass, whether built into a watch, on my phone, in my pocket and/or built into a walking stick (yes, they have those!). The sun literally, "won't always be there". :shock:

You have a good point though! :mrgreen:

[danicusrex]

You have access to a massive, ever-present and always available solar compass... just look at the shadows cast by the trees, then see what time of day it is; the sun rises from the eastern horizon and sets behind the western one.

At night, you do NOT have access to the solar compass, nor when fog is present. The sun cannot be seen....especially NOT in a blizzard! You need a compass. In real life, I'd carry a compass, whether built into a watch, on my phone, in my pocket and/or built into a walking stick (yes, they have those!). The sun literally, "won't always be there". :shock:

You have a good point though! :mrgreen:

Yes, but in real life a massive geomagnetic disaster hasn't rendered a compass totally useless. In The Long Dark, that's the case.

[SteveP]

Well I don't think a simple compass would be a bad idea. There is of course, another way to find your location which can save the character's life in a blizzard during first session. [spoil]your map coordinates and altitude are available from F8 screen shots[/spoil] It's a cheat so I don't know why a simple compass is a bad idea. It kind of takes the fun out of being lost in a blizzard. Perhaps you'd need to take compass bearings or something like that for it to be useful. How about finding a stick in the ground and marking the tip of the shadow to discover the East-West bearings? That would help orient you to the online maps. Not sure if that method would work in the game however the shadows do move so maybe.

Finding cardinal directions using a shadow stick.

It might be interesting to try this with the flag pole at the ML Camp Office. Drop something to mark the shadow's tip. You need sunlight to see the shadows.

Unfortunately, in a blizzard, when you need to know where to go ASAP, this stick method won't work unless you have laid out sticks for markers in several locations. But then you could always blaze your trails with sticks or something. Well maybe not sticks.

[SteveP]

if we had a compass or similar means of finding a bearing (such as a feature on the "horizon" you can navigate even without light by counting paces (similar to Ranger Beads)

The following video explains how this works:

Navigating by paces and compass bearing

[selfless]

So the geomagnetic event we are experiencing has either destroyed the pole or is moving it around. A compass might be interesting to watch, but not so useful anymore for navigation.

Fortunately, our character has a keen sense of direction and can walk a laser-straight line for literally ever. And bearings are easy to maintain either observing landmarks or exploits.

Only reason for an old style compass then is you want to build cardinal maps outside the game. Change your perspective: do it pirate-treasure-map style.

Find the cave under the ridge.

Nearby is a stump.

Walk from the cave past the stump and continue straight to the crest of the hill.

X marks the spot.

[jackattack]

While I don't want compasses in the game, the real use is when visibility has fallen to where you can only see some nearby trees, or (when on the lake or the frozen bay) nothing.

Especially if you are actively looking for other landmarks, or wolves, as you walk.

And absolutely if you have to go into inventory (to drink or eat or drop a marker or treat a wound) and then have your facing twisted around when you come back out.

[Boston123]

You already have a "compass" in-game.

Take a look at where the sun rises and where it sets.

We are:

1) In winter

2) at a northern latitude

This means the sun will rise in the (rough. all directions hereso given are APPROXIMATE) southeast, travel across the southern portion of the sky, and set in the southwest.

Boom, direction found.

[Foxen]

You already have a "compass" in-game.

Take a look at where the sun rises and where it sets.

We are:

1) In winter

2) at a northern latitude

This means the sun will rise in the (rough. all directions hereso given are APPROXIMATE) southeast, travel across the southern portion of the sky, and set in the southwest.

Boom, direction found.

...and this...was already invalidated some posts further up

At least for me most of the time there's no visible sun...and therefore no shadows.

Nearly every day it's cloudy and snowing or foggy but the days I can see the sun are quite rare.

You're right if you have nice shiny weather all the time...but else? :cry:

[toebar]

You're right if you have nice shiny weather all the time...but else? :cry:

Well, what would you do in real life if your compass broke, and your GPS and phone had no batteries?

[Foxen]

Well, what would you do in real life if your compass broke, and your GPS and phone had no batteries?

Well I'd build a crude one...to mention at least the two major directions...that's not that difficult

[toebar]

Ok, but let's assume compasses do not work do to the geomagnetic event. What then?

[Foxen]

and that is my great question:

Why th H*** should a compass malfunktion as a 'reference'?

Did the magnetic poles magically disappear?

Well, in that case the game makes no sense in terms of trying to survive...survive to wait till the cosmic radiation kills you?

There'll be no protection from that if the magnetic field of the earth disappears completely...and if the field is still there...let me (the Pilot... ) just build a (crude) compass as a reference to mention directions 8-)

What now...is there a field...or is it 'magically vanished'?

And if there's none...for what are we trying to survive...get 'grilled' later on?

Just to explain that:

To justify the non-ability of crafting/using a compass with the fact that there's no magnetic field (left) makes the whole game senseless :roll:

The compass won't have to point straight north, but it at least has to point the same direction every time you look at it...just as I said: As a Reference...

EDIT:

And if you're talking about an 'event' in terms of moving (magnetic material-) streams in the core (what would usually 'shift' or 'wave' the field all the time so that a compass would turn the whole day...well then we will have to survive volcanos and worse after the next map update

[toebar]

No magic required-- there have been other explanations proposed as well.. just do a search

The geomagnetic event is as of yet unexplained, but it's what has led to the current world conditions which the character finds themselves in. So, like it or not, that's the scenario we are operating under. The reason behind it does not really matter-- and I'm assuming that will be explained later. I doubt the doomsday scenario you suggest is where it's going, but who knows!

The general consensus is that compasses will not function reliably, effectively removing this crutch from the game. The question is still (for the character and the player) what would you do to find your way when the sun is not visible?

[jackattack]

I just figure that some of the really useful items -- like compasses, maps, hand-crank generators, and so on -- were snapped up quickly when the event started.

Then all of the people who took them fell through thin ice and died.

[SteveP]

So the geomagnetic event we are experiencing has either destroyed the pole or is moving it around. A compass might be interesting to watch, but not so useful anymore for navigation.

I wouldn't confuse the backstory with a possible need to make the game more playable. :mrgreen:

[SteveP]

Ok, but let's assume compasses do not work do to the geomagnetic event. What then?

Why? Just so the game can proficiently kill you off once you get lost? At times you WILL get lost so either make it survivable or give us a means of navigating in storms.

[jackattack]

So that we have to think up new and creative ways of surviving getting lost in a snowstorm.

[Capi]

A compass would be devastating for the game, it would make it too easy. Learn to take aim at landmarks and navigate by them, to avoid going in circles. It's not that hard once you learned it.

[danicusrex]

give us a means of navigating in storms.

You have one already. it's called "memory".

[octavian]

The never-ending compass issue.

Guys, it makes zero difference. Seriously.

How does a compass work? Suppose it works, let's suppose the compass always works. How does it work? Well, no, what does it do? It points to the cardinal directions. Right?

So basically, with a compass, you can face your face, as it were, to a direction of your liking, like East, or South-East, whatever.

Now, I'm not going to read this entire thread. I assume people want it for navigation.

Well, suppose you're surprised by a blizzard or fog. And you whip out your compass. Which direction are you going to head in? You have to know where you want to go. You have to know the map. And you have to know where you are.

So if you don't know the map and you don't know where you are it's just a spinny thing you look at and it spins, it doesn't help you.

If you do know the map but you don't know where you are (impossible unless you were sleeping while walking when bad weather happened) then it's useless.

If you do know the map and you do know where you are, you don't ever need it at all. Unless you're whacked on the side of the head, you always know, pretty much, give or take if you're a new player, where you are, since you know the map. So when bad weather comes, it doesn't come with a blackjack to the head. You still know where you are. And if you know where you are and you know the map, what's the problem?

Is getting turned around a problem? Having a compass to negate that makes no sense. It's your fault you got turned around, so fix it. If you do know where you are and you do know the map, it's an easy fix.

I guess players just want a pretty spinny thing to look at. I mean, I want a pretty spinny thing too, but for navigation, in TLD, it's useless.

[AmericanSteel]

The never-ending compass issue.

Guys, it makes zero difference. Seriously.

How does a compass work? Suppose it works, let's suppose the compass always works. How does it work? Well, no, what does it do? It points to the cardinal directions. Right?

So basically, with a compass, you can face your face, as it were, to a direction of your liking, like East, or South-East, whatever.

Now, I'm not going to read this entire thread. I assume people want it for navigation.

Well, suppose you're surprised by a blizzard or fog. And you whip out your compass. Which direction are you going to head in? You have to know where you want to go. You have to know the map. And you have to know where you are.

So if you don't know the map and you don't know where you are it's just a spinny thing you look at and it spins, it doesn't help you.

If you do know the map but you don't know where you are (impossible unless you were sleeping while walking when bad weather happened) then it's useless.

If you do know the map and you do know where you are, you don't ever need it at all. Unless you're whacked on the side of the head, you always know, pretty much, give or take if you're a new player, where you are, since you know the map. So when bad weather comes, it doesn't come with a blackjack to the head. You still know where you are. And if you know where you are and you know the map, what's the problem?

Is getting turned around a problem? Having a compass to negate that makes no sense. It's your fault you got turned around, so fix it. If you do know where you are and you do know the map, it's an easy fix.

I guess players just want a pretty spinny thing to look at. I mean, I want a pretty spinny thing too, but for navigation, in TLD, it's useless.

You are just not making any sense at all. Do you have any real experience using a compass, land navigation or map recons?

If I "know" I want to explore a direction, I shoot an azimuth and take a moment to get the lay of the land. I then pace off in that direction, shoot another azimuth, verify my track and start pacing off again. If I get in low to zero visibility conditions, I simple turn 180 deg (which you can see by you compass heading) and march my butt back to where I came. If during my trek I make turns, I need to write those down or recall them. I can either make a triangle out of my direction changes (using geometry) or use a few other rules in finding your back azimuth and head home. I know this because I was taught while in the Army. I know the character knows because they are a pilot. I don't have to know where I am in relation to the real world, I just need to make a starting point and run with it becoming the center of my universe.

The techniques to finding where you want to go and how to get home predate the compass using celestial navigation. How do you think the early explorers got around? Dead reckoning? Wet finger in the wind? The skills that predate modern GPS systems are completely relevant.

I get the whole idea that the compass is just not going to work for the back story. The devs have given us the sun and the moon, still waiting on usable stars. People are looking to traditional standbys for navigation and I get that. Just like some of us are wondering where is the spear, snow shoes, cross county skis or even a canteen. They may not ever be put into the game. But discounting a compass as simply a spinney thing (if it does work) is ludicrous.

[Boston123]

^ Exactly. I have 2-3 compasses among my various kits, and I try to grab a topo map of every place I go camping. On said topo-maps, I write down azimuths, distances travelled (in paces), and local landmarks, so I can find them even in a white-out.

Even if a compass doesn't work, a good topo-map can be used to find directions. The process is called "orienteering", and can be done with and without a compass. "Without a compass" takes a bit longer, as you have to rely on the local terrain and geography to place your position, but it isn't impossible

[octavian]

You are just not making any sense at all. Do you have any real experience using a compass, land navigation or map recons?

Yes.

How long does it take, in real-time, to walk from one end of a map, say ML, to the other end? I don't know. 10 minutes? No idea. Let's say 10 minutes. 15.

And you're saying that if we go somewhere you don't know, similar to TLD, so not just a forest, but a place with extremely distinct features, and I plot out a 15 minutes by 15 minutes square in terms of walking distance, so, what, a 1.5 square km area, you need a compass and a map to not get lost in it? Seriously? I don't buy that.

Afterthought: If you do need a map in a cordoned-off 1.5 square km area in real life, what kind of map are you using, what scale? 1:5000? Like a city map, so a km is 20 cm or what.

Not a map like this one.

[spoil]

[toebar]

I agree with both here- compass is not useless, but in the context of the game, it's not that useful if you don't know where you are or where you're going. It could still help you avoid going in circles to increase your chances of finding shelter in an unknown area.

[Aduron]

a 1.5 square km area, you need a compass and a map to not get lost in it? Seriously? I don't buy that.

This is the most important point in the whole thread, IMO. Would a compass help? Every once in a great while, maybe. Would the geomagnetic disaster make it useless? Maybe. Would it be exciting to find? Maybe.

Is it necessary? Not in the least. If they increase the map size by, like, 50 fold, then sure I'll want a compass. Until then it's smaller than my neighborhood.