A New Difficulty--REALISTIC

[harobed1156]

This is a thread about requesting a game mode without so many wolves. It's understandable that in the course of discussing this request, people would explain why they don't like the current amount of wolves.

So, one more time--It's not about how hard or easy the wolves are, its about wanting the game to challenge survival without resorting to increasing the number of encounters with zombie substitutes.

+1

[toebar]

No idea how to read this.

Sorry, I couldn`t figure out how to make lines in the table with the BBcode..

Let`s try this instead. E.g.Less wolves and Less Environmental difficulty = Pilgrim and so on.

edit: of course, this is an oversimplification, since the are MANY factors that play into the Environmental difficulty...

https://imageshack.com/i/exXwau2cj

[Boston123]

The environment should be the #1 killer in the game, not lack of resources, not the wolves/bears.

In my opinion, there should almost be a GLUT of available resources available. Houses with fireplaces have ample wood stacked up, decent supplies of food cashed away, plenty of clothing (Don't forget, people used to LIVE there, year-round). EX: Looting the Coastal Townsite should leave you well-off for a while.

Yes, if you piss off the wolves and bear, they will attack you, but they will leave you alone otherwise.

So, what does this mean? "All those excess resources and "friendly" animals will make the game too easy!" You may cry. "This is supposed to be a SURVIVAL game"!, you retort.

"It still is", I counter, "just more realistic and more long-term".

Think about it. You start out with plenty of food, firewood, bullets, materials, etc in the beginning, after some looting. You think "Maybe I can relax a bit. After all, I've got so much!"

Maybe....you get a little complacent.

Meanwhile, the winter is only intensifying. You don't really pay attention, inside with your beans and nice warm fire, but outside, it is getting colder and winder. The days are getting shorter. Animals are getting thinner, and fewer in number, and the animals that remain stay in the deep woods, as shelter from the weather and to look for food.

Meanwhile, you relax in that cabin, and you reach over to throw some more wood on the fire. The firebox is empty. You realize that you haven't been gathering any more to replace it. A little perturbed, you go to the kitchen to grab some tea. You then see that over half of your food is gone, the supply that was supposed to last you through the winter. You light up a lantern, to check the back of cabinets, and over 3/4 of your kerosene is gone, wasted on trivial tasks. "Whatever, I'll just hunt/fish for enough food", you say.

3 weeks later: you haven't seen a deer for 11 days, and wasn't able to take a shot off on the few you saw before. You've also been fishing, but they haven't been enough to fill the hole in your belly. You fell down on the ice bringing back a catch a few days ago, and the bruise still hasn't healed. It hurts to put much weight on that leg. You also noticed that you are a lot colder, shivering all the time, sleeping less, and forgetful. You've had to break up a lot of furniture to keep a fire fed, and sleep on the floor. You feel like crap.

2 weeks later: The cabin is cold; all the furniture was burnt long ago, and even chunks of carpet, paintings, and plastic bottles. You've had to curl up in blankets in a corner. A blizzard has been blowing non-stop for the last 2 weeks, and even if you were able to see outside, you barely have the energy to stir yourself and eat some cold, raw fish. Nothing is left.

Just you. You, and the Long Dark.

[littlefox1970]

Love the realistic mode ideas Cosmoline

I play pilgrim every now and then to build my confidence and explore regions for better orientation ... and every time i do I think to myself- "I wish there was a small chance that a wolf might attack" - just to add some caution to my movement and suspense to the exaggerated wolf shyness.

I think frostbite could also add some realism to the game...

Falling through ice should definitely have graver consequence ...

A lot of tweaking still to do in this game surely, and everyone's constructive input can only help.

I just love this game- it's one of a kind ... my kind ...

Little Fox~

[jackattack]

Man, I suck at this game…

To start, I don't think there are too many food resources in the game. My experience has been that there is enough food in cabins and other locations to last a few days, certainly less than a week. The bunkers I've found had enough food for one or two days, maybe three if I got lucky on the MREs.

I think frostbite should be added as a health/injury issue. Perhaps it could be in various levels of severity, based on condition reduction due to freezing. Treatment might be time in front of a fire, the amount of time based on severity.

I'm a little confused about starvation. I know that in a temperate climate with little activity it can take months to starve to death, but with the accelerated calorie burn of a cold climate and strenuous activity I don't know how fast a person would actually starve. Maybe starvation should "add to encumbrance" and slow the character down, rather than reducing the character condition. Would that be more realistic within the current parameters of the game?

Sweating. There is already a meter for "feels like". Maybe that could be leveraged as a game mechanic. could it be tied to the freezing/temperature bar, and increase the pace at which you start to freeze if you get too hot, on the basis that you sweaty clothes make it feel colder? Maybe not totally realistic, but it fits into bits of programming that already exist.

Regarding wolf and animal populations, maybe there could be (or already is) a mechanic in place that is linked to character activity. If you kill X animals of a particular type within Y days, the game reduces their spawns by some percentage for Z days. That would also give players a reason to travel back and forth between regions, to go where the hunting/fishing/trapping is still good.

[AmericanSteel]

Putting out a Cold Weather Linkie that I can relate to... as I had to memorize it. Both as a medic and as a team leader.

http://phc.amedd.army.mil/topics/discon ... uries.aspx

The major suspects:

1. Hypothermia - Can happen over a period of time (like staying out to long unprepared) or an in instant (immersion). The player can self treat if they can get back to some place warm, strip off the wet clothing, put warm clean clothing on and warm back up. If the player goes down while hypothermic (out in the bush or in the cabin), they probably will never get back up.

2. Frostbite - you can self treat, but only to a certain point. Once the player has killed the tissue, there is no going back. The player may be able to self treat (cutting off the affected body part) but most will be unable (either because of will or the location of the injury). Once infection sets in, in game conditions, the player is doomed.

3. Chillblain - This can make you miserable. You don't want anything to touch it and you don't want to use it. Chillblain on your hands can lead to decreased dexterity. On the feet, even socks hurt... running would be almost of of the question.

4. Immersion Foot - In the early stages, a player could self treat. Once the skin starts sloffing off they are going to be in a bad way. If an infection sets in TLD conditions, the player is probably doomed.

A few caveats. They do not mention snow blindness and I am not going to cover it. It has been mentioned more than a few times on the boards. Also, a faster way to dry boots is using cardboard... preferably the corrugated kind. All those wavy pieces of cardboard increase the surface area and allow the water to wick out/dry out faster.

They have the effects of water/hunger and simple injury. I think having these sort of effects would directly impact the players condition. Lets also surmise none of the cold weather injuries will kill the player due to infection. We will just say a general Chillblain gives a -10% condition. It will also take 1 to 5 continuous hours not being out in the cold. Once Chillblain is removed, the -10% condition modifer would fall BUT the player would still have to recover that 10% as usual. Frostbite -20% condition with 12 to 48 hours of no movement over walking, no exposure to the cold. Immersion Foot, -40% condition with 24 to 72 hours of no movement over walking and no exposure to the cold. Hypothermia, -80% condition with 12 to 24 of no movement over walking and no exposure to the cold. This also means some of these conditions could outright kill a weakened player. A player at 75% falls into a stream and 5 minutes later is impacted with hypothermia. The just pass out and die of exposure in short order. A player survives a fight with a wolf, now at 35%, while suffering the initial onset of immersion foot. Immersion Foot sets in and the player simply cant walk anymore. They take a sit down under a tree to rest and never get up. Players end up like the corpse-cicles we see out and about in TLD, where the elements and injury simply overcame them.

This would also make exposure injuries more threatening than just sitting in bed for a day. Imagine you suffered from hypothermia and your house was cold. You ran out of wood but just can't go outside. Should have stocked up on more wood. The player clicks on the door but the avatar says, "I am just not ready to go outside yet." The player retreats to their bed and hopes the temp does not fall to far. Player with frostbite (lets assume it hits the hands) just cant start a fire. They don't have the manual dexterity to do the job. They run out of water and no have no method to make more. Hope they left some water in the toilet! This also lengthens the time to recover from injury, causing the player to consume more supplies and being unable to improve their situation (no hunting or gathering) while under the weather.

[Ryan CM]

Creating a new mode with Realism as the goal would be quite the challenge! Here are some words from Raph from the reddit AMA on that topic as well as new experience levels: http://www.reddit.com/r/thelongdark/com ... at/coroyls

[toebar]

Incorporating a myriad of new mechanics (like those above) I would imagine to be quite difficult-- though they wouldn't just be used in the one mode I would think, if the effort was put into them.

My impression of what a 'realistic' mode would be would not require anything new to the game-- just a rebalancing, such that survival is harder due to the environment being more difficult (e.g. less resources available) rather than the wolves being

But this being said, I really do think the changes to the wolves are improvements, so I'm not as keen for this as I was.

[Xantro]

Hm, dunno about the overwheating, seems difficult to understand for someone who doesn't have a northern-climate experiece (i. e. an italian guy like me; altough I believe you guys it works like that) and might come out as annoying to play.

But I TOTALLY agree about the "less Wildlife-threat, more challenging conditions (supply scarcity, cold wheather)" idea.

[Shanti]

+1 for realistic difficulty. I would love to see this happen.

[Fuchikoma]

I was also thinking that a realistic mode would be nice, but more with respect to wildlife behaviour, which is probably easier to implement.

As someone else already mentioned somewhere, wolves in Voyageur or Stalker mode are much too aggressive. I think the official explanation is that the "event" that caused civilisation to crash also caused wildlife to develop a taste for human blood, but that feels a bit "gimmicky" to me :-)

This is what caused me to play in Pilgrim mode, but after a while, it became far too easy and I started losing interest (I still play occasionally to enjoy the atmosphere, but that's no longer gaming).

In the real world -- and I don't believe it would change overnight if we lost our technological edge -- most predators are weary of humans and will avoid confrontation whenever possible. However, they will not do so at any cost, e.g. when provoked or with their back against the wall. In Pilgrim mode, a wolf will run away from its hard-earned quarry if the player approaches. In Voyageur mode (and I suspect in Stalker mode, although I never tried it), a wolf will also abandon its meal, but this time to come straight after you. Both are equally unrealistic...

What I would propose is a mode in which wildife's attitude towards you depends on your actions and the circumstances. If you want to steal a deer from a wolf, you better be prepared to fight or scare it away actively with a flare or something. If on the other hand you give it a wide berth, it might stare at you and growl, but continuing its meal will be much higher on its agenda than risking life and limb in an attempt to kill you.

Finally, this could change as a function of the player's health, fatigue etc. If you look vulnerable and weak, a predator that would normally seek an easier prey might take a chance on you. If on the other hand you are a strong and well-fed individual, anything but the most desperate and/or imposing carnivore will most likely leave you alone unless you attack them first.

[BigJayA]

+1 for realistic mode! A more realistic passage of time would be nice too. A combination of real time and realistic movement making a trip from the trappers homestead to the derailment a serious undertaking. I would play that. Heck yeah I would!

[Maikleeps]

+1 for realistic difficulty. I would love to see this happen.

+1 I too would love the Realistic Mode and having nature as the true enemy!

[Myroslav]

I like it

[AmericanSteel]

+1 for realistic mode! A more realistic passage of time would be nice too. A combination of real time and realistic movement making a trip from the trappers homestead to the derailment a serious undertaking. I would play that. Heck yeah I would!

If something like this was added, we would need more warning about impending storms. The environment should give us the clues. You see the wind is blowing in a certain direction so you look in the opposite direction. Dark clouds on the horizon let you know you have a few hours before it gets here. Strong winds and you can't see the mountains at all, you know you have maybe 20 minutes.

Right now we can go from no wind to a blizzard in almost no time. It is like they dropped the blizzard from space!

[Shanti]

If something like this was added, we would need more warning about impending storms. The environment should give us the clues. You see the wind is blowing in a certain direction so you look in the opposite direction. Dark clouds on the horizon let you know you have a few hours before it gets here. Strong winds and you can't see the mountains at all, you know you have maybe 20 minutes.

Right now we can go from no wind to a blizzard in almost no time. It is like they dropped the blizzard from space!

+1 for more consistent and realistic weather, in all difficulties.

I think the devs should look at how prevailing wind patterns work, and decide on a "storm track". If all blizzards sweep in from the west (or north-east, or whatever direction), we as players will eventually recognize a shift in wind to that direction to be a danger sign. For most areas, it is very common for large storms to come in from a different direction as smaller storms, as well as common directions for warmer / colder air to move in from.

I would love to stand at the camp office, and know that because the flag is blowing east, fairly strongly, I can probably expect temperatures to rise throughout the day. Or if it's blowing from the southwest, that it will probably get colder, and may snow. This would also make the lookout way more useful, if you could see where the weather coming in from farther away.

[Maikleeps]

I have another idea for realistic mode: Stop Fluffy from barking when approaching, see here.

[jessrm89]

Another +1 for Realism Mode! I'm all over this.

My desire for this is mainly fueled by animal AI. It's a bit wonky as is. I know there are story details inbound regarding the hyper-aggressive wolves, but I'll take predators that assess risk and conditionally defend territory over perma-aggro wolves that chase you about like a mean pekingese after the mail carrier.

Black bear, on the other hand, while also more skittish than they are given credit for, can be highly tenacious when stalking prey and have been known to eat humans (granted, still really rare). And harvesting bear meat without contaminating it is particularly tricky -- should probably be more difficult than the others.

Just one little nitpick about bears that's probably come up, but just in case: playing dead on a black bear isn't likely help you out much, unless your aim is to be devoured. They're not as unwilling to eat carrion as grizzlies are. (Though it must be said, I really like the play dead option, and grizzlies can have black fur; did Hinterland ever officially dub these guys black bears, or did the fan community do so?)

[toebar]

Just one little nitpick about bears that's probably come up, but just in case: playing dead on a black bear isn't likely help you out much, unless your aim is to be devoured. They're not as unwilling to eat carrion as grizzlies are. (Though it must be said, I really like the play dead option, and grizzlies can have black fur; did Hinterland ever officially dub these guys black bears, or did the fan community do so?)

This is only true in a predatory attack--where the bear actually wants you for dinner. In the case defensive attack (oxymoron? ), e.g. defending cubs, or a kill (or perhaps in-game, if you injure one) etc, playing dead could still work. That being said, I'm not so sure I'd try it.

[jessrm89]

Do the bears in-game currently "defensively attack" (I'll accept this term), though? So far, I've only had them come for my tasty meat self. Same goes for the wolves, which seems to be a pretty common gripe. Finish your fresh kill before you go after my delicious thighs, Fluffy!

If they do/did defend territories and interact with you in a non-predatory way, that would be awesome! How much of an "oh shit" moment would it be to boost up a hill and accidentally stumble on cubs in game?

[octavian]

Do the bears in-game currently "defensively attack" (I'll accept this term), though?

Well, seeing how if you stay away from them they don't chase you out of spite across the map, I'd say yes, they are defensive, wolves too. Get too close, they attack, stay away, they don't. Nothing else but defensive.

[jessrm89]

I haven't encountered enough bears to get an idea for their behavior range yet, but once a wolf detects you in-game, it begins pursuit with intent to attack -- not what I'd define as defensive. No warning behavior, no way to back off; it's as if you stepped into an animal's sight range, even at a fair distance, and it immediately launched into predatory mode. (I can only assume this is what's occurring in the game mechanic, as we have no at-a-distance interactions with wolves yet; they seem to not notice us at all until they're activated, such as it is.)

Pretty action game-y, and hardly appropriate for a realism mode. You clap your hands loud at a solitary wolf, even at a distance, and they're likely to take off. I assume that as soon as you move into its programmed detection range, if you don't do something to scare it off or outrun it, a bear behaves the same way.

[octavian]

Since some guy at Hinterland said survivor AIs any discussion of gameplay is pointless for me as we have no idea whatsoever what that means and how it will be implemented. If once a month an NPC will pop up on the map that will change everything, there would be no such thing as wolves balanced separately and AIs separately. Ask yourself how the NPC(s) and wildlife would or could interact for example.

[jessrm89]

Seems even more important to discuss gameplay re:AI behavior in a wish list forum as they continue to develop this feature. Excited for it either way.

Personally, I hope for a realism mode with less aggressive wildlife, but increased wildlife interactivity, no matter the range. You might still tangle with deadly wolf aggression, for example, if you're all in desperate need of meat, and a pack shows up to a kill you've made.

Bears... well, if they're still hungry for me, I guess I'll be eternally hoping for bear spray in the camping offices.

[AmericanSteel]

Seems even more important to discuss gameplay re:AI behavior in a wish list forum as they continue to develop this feature. Excited for it either way.

Personally, I hope for a realism mode with less aggressive wildlife, but increased wildlife interactivity, no matter the range. You might still tangle with deadly wolf aggression, for example, if you're all in desperate need of meat, and a pack shows up to a kill you've made.

Bears... well, if they're still hungry for me, I guess I'll be eternally hoping for bear spray in the camping offices.

I think solving the bear problem just needs a bit of randomness in their investigation/pursuit behavior. Right now they just mope off after you. So you keep them in range and kite them to where ever. If they added a random action into the mix, say every 20 seconds or so, it would change completely. The bear mope off after you for a bit and then: continues on at pace, wanders off, runs off, charges, stands still, etc. Now kiting has become problematic at best. You get to close and the bear charges, all bets are off. While they are still a calorie bomb, they are a calorie bomb that can go off in your face.

I think wolves are a bit to much of fire and forget, forgetting what they were doing until you came alone. I would love to come over a rise and see a wolf chowing down on a deer. Right now you get charged. To have the wolf growl, bark or even lunge and retreat would be nice options. All of them would point to realistic animal behavior that "Hey, this is my food. Back off!" Right now it is simply acting from moving meat source to the next moving meat source.... even if it was full. Having a recently fed wolf simply growl and menace or simply trot off would be a nice change of pace. Instead of the kill switch being stuck in the ON position.