Wolf fighting controls not intuitive...


LDbubba

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Been playing TLD for a while now (6+ real hours), mostly on the hardest level, and I think I only just figured out how to fight off a wolf!

The problem lies in the fact that during a "fight" you have precious little time to read the instructions, and even if you do, it's not clear what the actual process is.

From what I can see now, you need to repeatedly click the LMB to build-up strength, the click the RMB once to "use" that energy in an attack. Flailing with the RMB only does not seem to accomplish anything, and is probably equivalent to petting the wolf! ;)

I'm not sure how you can better explain these controls in the context of the game, other than with some kind of tutorial, but that takes away from the immersion of the game. The problem lies in that the control mechanism, although unique and smart, is not easily understood, and could lead to a lot of unnecessary frustration.

Maybe the devs though that panicked clicking would somehow make it more exciting, but I think it just leads to confusion and annoyance!

Personally, I assumed that it would make more sense to hold the LMB to build up strength, and then release it with the RMB. This general mechanism is used in a lot of sports games that require a swinging/backswing motion (baseball, golf, bowling, etc). The rapid clicking requirement to build "strength" is not intuitive since if you don't do it, there is no apparent effect. Conversely, a "click & hold" would immediately show growing strength, and would be far more intuitive.

Also, "attack" of any kind is always LMB in any game, so the controls are reversed, right off the bat! ;)

The UI should be: hold RMB to swing your arm back to wherever desired (blow strength), then LMB to release the blow. Thus, repeated left-clicks would be little more than a weak jabs (with an appropriate sound effect to illustrate it...)

Going full-circle, the instancing of a wolf attack is disjointed and irksome since there no way to "prepare" for an attack, even though you know one is coming. If I could have the knife/hatchet ready to strike as the wolf approached, it would be a far more realistic and rewarding experience.

I guess it goes hand-in-hand with the building-instancing metaphor, but it does make attacks feel a bit "scripted and canned", kind of like a Nintendo DS Pokemon battle! (the problem being that DS Pokemon is not an immersive 3D environment!)

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I do agree that it should be

1) right mouse click repeatedly to build strength

2) left mouse click to use the built up strength

Its six of one and a half dozen of another though. I've never fought a wolf, you? Maybe you're suppose to left click first. Maybe you're not "building strength". Maybe you ARE hitting the wolf with small hits with the left click looking for a window to right click with the "final blow" of the attack.

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I do agree that it should be

1) right mouse click repeatedly to build strength

2) left mouse click to use the built up strength

I'm not sure that the repeated clicking is needed, or intuitive. Just make it click & hold to gain "power", been done many times before in many different games.

FYI, once you understand how it currently works (spam LMB, click RMB, rinse & repeat), it's pretty easy to fend off a wolf attack, but the underlying point is that it should be intuitive enough that the player figures it out during the first attack, and not a few dozen attacks later, or making the player revert to looking up a "help" page!

The "power/backswing" concept could be used for wood chopping (fun!), and that would be a logical "tutorial" to the defense mechanism.

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I'm not sure that the repeated clicking is needed, or intuitive. Just make it click & hold to gain "power", been done many times before in many different games.

I'm not sure the devs are at all interested in doing what's been done before.

FYI, once you understand how it currently works (spam LMB, click RMB, rinse & repeat), it's pretty easy to fend off a wolf attack,

So what's the issue? Learning any new games controls is part of the learning curve of the game.

but the underlying point is that it should be intuitive enough that the player figures it out during the first attack, and not a few dozen attacks later,

Because people should intuitively know how to fend off a major threat (wolf (ves)) in a survival game? I'm not sure I agree with this logic.

or making the player revert to looking up a "help" page!

No one is forcing the player to look up help pages or maps on the web, they did it of their own volition. Many gamers do this though because they like to be l33t, cheat, or otherwise spoil their own experience by gaining information through other ways, not their own. Its a shame and unfortunately its a trend, people that can't think for themselves, but that's a whole other bag of worms we won't get in to.

The "power/backswing" concept could be used for wood chopping (fun!), and that would be a logical "tutorial" to the defense mechanism.

I wouldn't say "fun!" but this is a decent idea. It doesn't break immersion and it doesn't require popups or on screen text telling you how to do something. I like it. The only issue I see with it is that on both my first and second play throughs on Stalker, I was killed by wolves long before I got a chance to chop any wood. It would suck if I'd known how to kill the wolves the first time I encountered them. Yeah I died but it was really tense and amazing trying to figure it out.

It would probably work for the story mode of the game though and by the time the player chose to play sandbox, they would already know how to interact from experience.

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I'm not sure the devs are at all interested in doing what's been done before.

So what's the issue? Learning any new games controls is part of the learning curve of the game.

Because people should intuitively know how to fend off a major threat (wolf (ves)) in a survival game? I'm not sure I agree with this logic.

The are all illogical arguments....

It's like you're saying that since every other first-person game uses "W-S" key presses to move forward & backwards, it's "unoriginal" and should be avoided.

Learning unique game processes (like repair, harvesting, etc.) is challenging and makes sense. Learning "novel" control methods, not so much...

Generally speaking, if there's already a game control method that is intuitive and has been proven successful many times over, then use it! (universally, LMB = hit/shoot something!)

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It think it could be more clear to new players what buttons to push to fight a wolf. That still leaves enough to figure out about fights, like what weapons and clothes are best. IRL I wouldn't have to die a few times to figure out how to move my arm to punch something, so why would I have to die a few times to figure out what button does what?

But lets not forget that this game is still in early Alpha and both the mechanics and the UI are still being changed a lot. In the end I'm sure it will be more clear, whether this is done by some sort of tutorial, very intuitive controls or by using an UI that make it obviously clear the first time.

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I agree, I died very soon after my first wolf encounter and had no idea what I did wrong.

This also pertains to some other elements of the game, crafting/repairing for example. The "failed Repair" message dissapeared so fast the first few times I didn't even realize it happened, so I was blindly exploring thinking I knew how to play but was very wrong about alot of things for a good while. I didn't even know you can stockpile items in a drawer to come back to later!

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If you HAD left clicked with your first wolf encounter, you'd also died.

The thing is, left clicking, which by your logic, elloco999 is instinctual for attack and you can clearly see on the screen when you left click...the bar moves. So putting 1+1together, hitting left click repeatedly is like slashing at the wolf. When its charged up you hit right click one time to release it or possibly stab with a stronger attack.

If you did have to hit right click first, uninstinctually... nothing would in fact happen.... huh....

CS 1.6 and CS Source have done this before. Left click is slash, right click is stab and more powerful. So a game that is massively popular has done something similar before and it makes complete sense to me and others.

Still are all my arguments are illogical? ....Probably...

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The thing is, left clicking, which by your logic, elloco999 is instinctual for attack...

I never said that...

...and you can clearly see on the screen when you left click...the bar moves. So putting 1+1together, hitting left click repeatedly is like slashing at the wolf. When its charged up you hit right click one time to release it or possibly stab with a stronger attack.

Ehm, no. Left clicking is not slashing at the wolf as it does absolutely no damage to the wolf. It is building up strength for when you right click to hit. It's like moving your arm back a little further with each click so you can put more force into your blow.

Repeatedly right clicking without using left clicking to power up is like slashing.

If you did have to hit right click first, uninstinctually... nothing would in fact happen.... huh....

Actually when I first fought a wolf in TLD rapidly right clicking was the best way to get the wolf of ASAP. I could get a wolf of in seconds and usually took less than 10% damage. It certainly did more than only left clicking and it still does as only left clicking does absolutely nothing. Only right clicking on the other hand does do damage but with the current version it will probably not be enough to kill the wolf or chase it off unless it was already half dead.

CS 1.6 and CS Source have done this before. Left click is slash, right click is stab and more powerful. So a game that is massively popular has done something similar before and it makes complete sense to me and others.

Maybe, but that isn't the way it works in TLD.

Still are all my arguments are illogical? ....Probably...

I never said your arguments were illogical.

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I was addressing LDbubba because ...he said that? Are we paranoid? :P

@elloco999, I do appreciate you clearing up the defense mechanic as I thought the only way it worked was right clicking to build to a full bar and then right clicking. Thanks.

And remember, just because you think everyone is out to get you, doesn't mean they aren't.

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I tend to agree it could be a bit more intuitive.

as for the back and forth I think one thing to keep in min Lux is that this is play test feedback and not playtest fact lol

everyone is going to have their own opinions. You made some good points as well, but i think the way you responded just made it seem like you were picking apart the OP's opinion. It seem a bit more "no you are wrong" instead of "here is my different opinion, but thats just me

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After I forced myself to hunt wolves without a Rifle for the last 30 days of my playthrough, I can say that the controls do make sense as they are: you need to click much more and faster with the left button and my index finger is more accustomed to click fast than my middle/ring finger. I guess that's the reason why the devs chose it to be this way. Mind you, you don't have eternal time to build up your strength for an attack, the wolf does not wait for you to be ready. So speed is the essential factor determining how much the wolf will damage you.

With some training you won't lose a fight against a wolf, as long as you start the fight with 100% condition and proper cloths he sould not get you below 50%. left-left-left-right, left-left-right, left-right, wolf runs away with <20%. I figured that you should only build up full strength on the initial attack, then attack faster with less force. I even fended off two wolves in stalker yesterday with this method and won both fights with 40% cond left.

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I agree it is fine as it is. I only play on stalker mode and I've also fought off two wolves simultaneously albeit with only about 29% condition left afterward. A third may have been (and probably sHOULd be fatal) and it really leaves you in a bad way which for fending off 2 wolves at the same time feels spot on, IMO

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As an older player, I generally deplore a fast click experience, but in this game it is a fairly rare in RL game time, Fifty hours in and surviving an attack it always depends on luck.. The fast click is a punctuation to your death that thankfully you do not have to perform in other parts of the game.

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I was addressing LDbubba because ...he said that? Are we paranoid? :P

@elloco999, I do appreciate you clearing up the defense mechanic as I thought the only way it worked was right clicking to build to a full bar and then right clicking. Thanks.

And remember, just because you think everyone is out to get you, doesn't mean they aren't.

Well, my name was the only one in your post so I felt you were addressing me. My apologies.

And if you think everyone is out to get you, your safest bet is to assume they are :D And in TLD, if they walk on 4 legs are very furry and howl a lot, shoot first and ask questions later.

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