On sleeping, rest and condition and why they need tuning.


pi972

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I can sit around watching TV or playing games all day (doing no physical activity at all) and still i'm tired at the end of the day to still get 7-8 hours of sleep. If you are awake for long enough your going to be tired and sleep. 

 

the current sleep system is a fix to a problem that didnt need fixing. Who really cares if someone plays the game and just sleeps all day? seems like a pretty boring way to play but if someone wants to do that then why should I or anyone else care? 

 

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1 hour ago, pi972 said:

Not talking about outdoors, in the open. Certain caves or the dam can reach very high "feels like" temperatures even without a fire. I'm not sure why you think this is a good scenario: Here I am, in a perfectly warm cave, with a full belly, actively dying of exhaustion, yet I can't sleep because I'm afraid the ground might be a bit cold. As a result, I literally die from exhaustion (or am forced to go out into a blizzard to look for shelter, because surely that's better than sleeping on the floor).

 

Did you even read my post? I can sleep 7 hours a day and be fine, absolutely zero extra tiredness the next day. I can also sleep for 12 hours and be fine. So why is it that our character can only sleep for a fixed amount of time? If my ingame character sleeps for 7 hours, he'll wake up tired, not at full energy. Meanwhile he is phisically incapable of sleeping for 12 hours, even if he just got mauled by a bear and is barely holding onto life. I don't need to argue about this any further, I can just call it what it is: Stupid.

As for cabin fever, go read my post about it if you want to.

 

I'll tell you what this game is really about: An immersive survival experience. Everything in this game is meant to make me feel like I'm really a hardened survivor doing their best to stay alive in northern Canada. Some of its features, however, are incredibly gamey and gimmicky. They do nothing to increase our immersion or the authenticity of the setting, and unless they make gameplay more fun or enjoyable (they don't), they should be removed. If I'm to die, let it be because I made a mistake, or didn't prepare enough. Not because a wolf tore my bedroll to shreds and my character is afraid of sleeping in warm caves.

 It should feel gamey and every game has gimmicks (though I'm not sure what that means in this context). How about the geomagnetic storm? Not gimmicky enough? Of the wildlife that is so vicious? Or that deer can survive -70C grazing on a barren iced-over lake? That I would find edible rabbit meat in an oven? That all of the corpses are men? That a fully-clothed corpse wouldn't provide clothing for me to take? How many gimmicky, gamey things shall I list?

 " If I'm to die, let it be because I made a mistake, or didn't prepare enough." I believe that this is indeed why you die. All of my deaths have been a result of one of these as I suspect are most players' deaths. Not finding matches or a bedroll or having the bedroll torn apart by wolves may be just bad luck, not an indicator of the game being broken. It could easily be argued that these are indications of the game working perfectly which takes me back to my initial argument in this thread, that these things are just wants, not needs.

 I think fundamentally we don't disagree as much as I take exception to the level of urgency or importance implied. If we could sleep on the floor then fine, I would. But we can't, so I don't. It's a slippery slope - surely you can see this - that allowing this and that but not that or this....it's an unending Pandora's Box that is simply best left closed, or in this case, limited. Any one of us could wish for ten things we'd like, but as with absolutely every game out there, things get decided for us and while we might not agree, it is the rules set and parameters laid out that makes a game a game. Besides, if it's not one thing its another; people are insatiable and as I said, things get too messy when trying to please everyone. One might think that their ideas are above reproach or too novel to be disregarded, but this too is just a fancy.

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1. Maybe we're playing on different difficulty levels. Anyhow, the fact that you are in a place where you cannot sleep is indeed likely due to a prior poor decision or just unlucky RNG. Those are the breaks and you die. It happens in RL all the time. Still no real argument for change.

No. It does not happen IRL. At no point in real life did a person have their bedroll ruined and decide to die of exhaustion instead of sleeping on the floor. Like I said, this is a ridiculous situation. If I'm to die because my bedroll got ruined, then it should be from the hypothermia I got from sleeping on the floor without taking the proper precautions. NOT because I'm afraid of sleeping on the floor.

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2. "I can...". Good for you, but your character in the game can't. Yes, I read your post but I disagree. If your in-game character sleeps 7 hours - if that is indeed what the algorithm or code states they need to be fully rested - then they will not be tired. At all. The end. As I have already stated, sleep is not the only in-game solution to convalesce.

It's ridiculous that the upper limit for someone's amounts of sleep is 7 hours then. I'm not talking about me, let me rephrase that: Normal humans do not sleep for a fixed amount of time. Normal humans can sleep anywhere between 7-10 hours and not feel any negative effects. We're playing as a bush pilot, not a robot.

 

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4. Game. This is the operative word. It should feel gamey and every game has gimmicks (though I'm not sure what that means in this context). How about the geomagnetic storm? Not gimmicky enough? Of the wildlife that is so vicious? Or that deer can survive -70C grazing on a barren iced-over lake? That I would find edible rabbit meat in an oven? That all of the corpses are men? That a fully-clothed corpse wouldn't provide clothing for me to take? How many gimmicky, gamey things shall I list?

I'm not sure why you feel the necessity to willingly misunderstand my argument. When I talk about gamey or gimmicky features, I'm not talking about the geomagnetic storm, because that never negatively impacts your game experience. I'm not talking about the excessively vicious wildlife, because it actually positively impacts the gameplay - IRL wolves rarely attack humans, and that would make for a boring game. I'm also not talking about deer surviving extreme temps, or all the corpses being men, or the rabbit meat found in ovens, because you KNOW those don't negatively impact gameplay, so I'm not sure why you even mention that. I am obviously talking about silly gimmicks that take me out of the game and kill my immersion. Things like waking up 3 hours earlier than I intended to, then having to play cards in the dark for 2 hours, so that I can sleep for another one - Because if I had not done that, I would have been too tired to endure a full day of walking around. I am talking about (and I keep mentioning this but you won't get it) dying of exhaustion because my character is unable of sleeping on the floor, despite the fact that a normal human would obviously try to. 

 

I'll explain for the last time: My issue is not with dying. My issue is not being able to do something that any normal human would be able to do, in this situation, that would have saved my life.

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 Mate, choose RL or the game; the discussion is taking on a schizophrenic nature right now. The game isn't a reality sim and the avatar in the game isn't supposed to be like you or me. Similar in many respects, but not the same.

 You're cherry picking. That's why I don't accept your argument. Taking things you interpret subjectively as negative improbabilities and separating them from things you interpret subjectively as positive improbabilities is no basis for a valid argument. If you want to argue reality vs. the game, then let's do that, but you are no arbiter of what is or isn't off the table nor about what is good or bad within the game.

 I find the current sleep mechanic to be a compelling aspect of game play as does Hinterland apparently. Thus, who's opinion has more credibility? You can prop your ideas up with RL all you want, but given that TLD isn't a RL sim, your support is gone. Even further, it isn't just RL you want to employ, but your personal RL, making your argument even less valid.

 You seem to wish to be misunderstood or your posts not read, but that isn't the case. Your posts and ideas are simple enough but first, not sound arguments, only opinions and second, thus refutable.

 If your issue is "not being able to do something that any normal human would be able to do", then I suggest not playing games at all. There isn't a game out there - sim or otherwise - that successfully and fully emulates reality.

 

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Hey Folks, no need to take things personally over differences of opinion! Try to stay civil. Especially since "reality vs gameplay" tends to ignite very passionate arguments. 

Also, try to avoid being facetious. Comments like:

6 hours ago, Carbon said:

 If your issue is "not being able to do something that any normal human would be able to do", then I suggest not playing games at all. There isn't a game out there - sim or otherwise - that successfully and fully emulates reality.

are not helping anyone. 

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15 hours ago, Carbon said:

Mate, choose RL or the game; the discussion is taking on a schizophrenic nature right now. The game isn't a reality sim and the avatar in the game isn't supposed to be like you or me. Similar in many respects, but not the same.

Thats not really an argument. Youre simply dismissing his argumentation with no good reason.

15 hours ago, Carbon said:

Taking things you interpret subjectively as negative improbabilities and separating them from things you interpret subjectively as positive improbabilities is no basis for a valid argument. If you want to argue reality vs. the game, then let's do that, but you are no arbiter of what is or isn't off the table nor about what is good or bad within the game.

Everything in life is subjective, viewed thru prism of own experience. There are some hard truths, but none of them are questioned here. What you are writing is nonsense.

15 hours ago, Carbon said:

Thus, who's opinion has more credibility? You can prop your ideas up with RL all you want, but given that TLD isn't a RL sim, your support is gone.

For someone who cant help himself but to dismiss other people arguments on premise of them being subjective conjectures, you seem to have no problems to do it yourself. Extensively.

15 hours ago, Carbon said:

Your posts and ideas are simple enough but first, not sound arguments, only opinions and second, thus refutable.

You havent provided any sound arguments either, just a bunch of demagoguery. And dismiss his experience on basis of literally nothing.

Every your argument is basic solely on either personal subjective preference or conjectures that do not qualify as argument at all.

"Its just a a game" is not a valid argument. At least no more than "Mars is a planet", as it does neither support nor refute any point of view. It means nothing. "Its not a sim..." - so *censored* what ?

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On 6/6/2017 at 10:40 PM, continuity said:

I'm not sure that the goal is realism, it seems to be that enjoyable/challenging gameplay is taking precedence over realism in many mechanics in the game.

The current mechanics for sleep (and other things) work but there is always room for improvement.
I've played quite a few games but prefer first-person games where where aim of the game is not killing/disabling everything you come across. 
So on that note I hope the goal, for Voyageur difficulty at least, is realism, because of the many games I've played, The Long Dark is the best one at simulating a survival situation in an interesting environment.

Sleeping on the snow or on the floor inside buildings should be allowed but with drastic penalties (to include character death).
I believe the snow shelter is a makeshift bed for the snow, right? (I've never used one).

As some here have already mentioned, it should be possible to break down cardboard boxes or even wood crates to make a makeshift bed of some sort, but only inside buildings. They wouldn't provide much warmth of course, but one could assume that sticking a few boxes together to sleep inside of like a hobo might provide 0.2 C of warmth in a building where the ambient air temperature is below zero Celsius or less. Sleeping on wood slats on the floor may provide 0.1 C of insulation simply because you are not on the frozen floor.

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11 hours ago, Dirmagnos said:

Thats not really an argument. Youre simply dismissing his argumentation with no good reason.

 It wasn't an argument, but a dismissal. :)

11 hours ago, Dirmagnos said:

Everything in life is subjective, viewed thru prism of own experience. There are some hard truths, but none of them are questioned here. What you are writing is nonsense.

 The OP was talking about aspects of the game which weren't in line with reality. I pointed out many things that are this way. The OP then stated that they were fine because they didn't negatively impact game play. To this I said it was cherry picking, only choosing evidence that supports one point of view while ignoring contrary evidence. If one is looking for 'reality' in TLD, then search as hard as you like, there is very little there.Then claims were made that the 'reality' which they were comparing the game to was their own, not mine or yours. That, along with the claim that any aspect  negatively impacts game play was as you now say, is wholly subjective.

11 hours ago, Dirmagnos said:

For someone who cant help himself but to dismiss other people arguments on premise of them being subjective conjectures, you seem to have no problems to do it yourself. Extensively.

 The sentence you quoted to which this serves as a reply provides no evidence of your claim. My claims were supported by the game itself; this was the context in which I made the statement you quoted, though you did manage to make it nonsensical by removing the preceding statements. Odd to do that as the truncated version still doesn't serve your intended purpose.

11 hours ago, Dirmagnos said:

You havent provided any sound arguments either, just a bunch of demagoguery. And dismiss his experience on basis of literally nothing.

Every your argument is basic solely on either personal subjective preference or conjectures that do not qualify as argument at all.

"Its just a a game" is not a valid argument. At least no more than "Mars is a planet", as it does neither support nor refute any point of view. It means nothing. "Its not a sim..." - so *censored* what ?

  I think you meant to quote the OP. You are summarizing my arguments against their claims nicely. And my oh my, you are certainly talking the talk. Not sure about the walk, but you seem to be getting the nomenclature down. ;)

 Look, I can see that you may feel empowered to jump in to the fray by my being chastised by a mod, but do see that the mod may be right about my standing on the line of forum decency (which, in claiming I was being facetious they are not; I was being quite serious. A bit of a jerk, certainly, but not facetious) but in their saying nothing about the discussion per se, they are taking no side. So, that you chose to jump in at this point may seem like a safe move, I can assure you that your post adds nothing to either side of this discussion - you are quite alone and well off-topic (I am not the topic) - and I will not back away from a discussion in fear of being outnumbered.

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I generally agree with the principle that the game shouldn't block you from doing things (like sleeping on the bare ground)  just because it would potentially be a bad idea: we as players should be allowed to make such mistakes, and be punished for them. However, the character himself does seem to know about the danger of sleeping on the ground: "I'd lay down right here if I thought I'd ever wake up again." There is also the issue of not wanting to obviate the importance of the bedroll as a piece of survival equipment by relegating its benefit to a mere few degrees of warmth bonus. There would have to be a hefty temperature penalty to sleeping on the ground, and perhaps also a sleep cap penalty so that you couldn't get a fully refreshing rest (you wake up in pain with a sore  neck/back before you're fully rested).

On allowing more sleep when injured, I think this could be done by simply changing the rest bar recovery rate so that it is slower if you are healing. It could also be capped, to stimulate to an extent that your sleep would be more disturbed than normal, depending on your condition. 

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16 hours ago, Wasteland Watcher said:

I hope the goal, for Voyageur difficulty at least, is realism, because of the many games I've played, The Long Dark is the best one at simulating a survival situation in an interesting environment.

 

11 hours ago, Carbon said:

If one is looking for 'reality' in TLD, then search as hard as you like, there is very little there.

I have to agree with Carbon on this one. Even though some aspects of the game resemble real life, there are these hard limitations, which keep remembering us that realism is not a prime goal of the game. These imposed limitations are totally artificial and bear no resemblance to real life. They are just the result of someone's thought that they were going to be good ideas, but many of us don't even understand why they would be necessary.
In this regard, the "problems" of not being able to [try to] sleep anywhere and not being able to [try to] climb anytime are similar limitations. If realism was of paramount importance, the player would be able to do these things wherever / whenever he (she) wanted, as in real life. Why not just let the physics do its job? In these cases, feeling the cold ground above you and feeling the weight of your backpack, respectively. For me at least, this approach would be far more enjoyable, far more immersive, and far more plausible. Why not do it? Oh, wait, I think I know the answer: it's because the current game's implementation choices "reflect better the experience Hinterland is trying to create". That seems their answer to almost every question made.

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8 hours ago, slackhideo said:

Even though some aspects of the game resemble real life, there are these hard limitations, which keep remembering us that realism is not a prime goal of the game.
These imposed limitations are totally artificial and bear no resemblance to real life.
They are just the result of someone's thought that they were going to be good ideas, but many of us don't even understand why they would be necessary.

Realism isn't the prime goal, surviving nature is. It's the obvious theme, and a big part the way Hinterland tells us this story is by 'allowing realism' to "bleed into" the Sandbox by presenting realistic answers to theoretical but realistic problems such as, "if I was freezing in the winter and had some matches, what would I do?" or "If I was sleepy but the floor is hypothermia-inducingly-cold and I-know-I-can't-lay-there-or-I-will-die, what would I do?"

Given our current state of technology there isn't software available (yet) that can perfectly replicate a "post-apocalypse real life survival situation" but Hinterland is doing an admirable job of making the best one available given the current tools.

And I am enjoying the ride :)
That's why it's necessary to keep making this game as realistic as possible. It may not be fun for you, but it sure as hell is for me :D

If you don't want a game that is "trying to be so realistic," there are literally thousands of games out there for you to play. The Long Dark is the one game I have found that "caters" to my desire to be on a "virtual camping trip in a frozen, harsh wilderness, without help."
Because The Long Dark is the only game that does this, I honestly am displeased by any suggestion that even hints of it deviating from this track. 

Finally, I think it's a fine thing when we 'beta testers' here point out things that seem odd such as "how come I can't sleep on a floor that will kill me if I, the PC game player, want to?" 
I think a part of the answers lies in the fact that we are role-playing someone with bushcraft experience who knows there are certain places unsafe to perform a simple action such as sleep.
We are role-playing someone who wants to live.

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1 hour ago, Wasteland Watcher said:

Finally, I think it's a fine thing when we 'beta testers' here point out things that seem odd such as "how come I can't sleep on a floor that will kill me if I, the PC game player, want to?" 
I think a part of the answers lies in the fact that we are role-playing someone with bushcraft experience who knows there are certain places unsafe to perform a simple action such as sleep.
We are role-playing someone who wants to live

Fair enough, but that doesn't really explain why we can't sleep in a warm cave or house that happens to not have a bed.

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24 minutes ago, pi972 said:

Fair enough, but that doesn't really explain why we can't sleep in a warm cave or house that happens to not have a bed.

3 Celsius isn't warm :P

 

Edit: Okay but to reason a bit... if one is accustomed to the cold of Canada as we assume our protagonist the bush expert to be, being a fine Canadian and all, then I may assume that he or she could sleep if their clothes provided say...10 C of warmth on that 3 C floor.

I mean, 3 C is above freezing, right? However, disclaimer: this is my layman's opinion--I'm no survival expert or even experienced at living in the cold. Winters in coastal southern California growing up were around upper 50s F (~14 C), and here in Kanagawa, Japan the average Feb temp is 1 ~ 7 C.

 

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As others have pointed out you can still freeze to death in a warm room if the ground is cold. Air is a wonderful insulator and as long as its not moving you can stay relatively warm. Full contact with a cold surface (like the ground) will freeze you solid very quickly fire or no fire. That's why you can't sleep on the cold ground or cold floor: you will still become hypothermic. 

However, as has also been pointed out, there are many, many survival techniques for mitigating this. Inside you can sleep on a chair (or couch, or on the second floor, etc.). Outside boughs (piled at least 15 cm thick, more is better) will protect you from the cold. Conversely, you can build a massive fire to warm up the ground, move the fire away, and then sleep where the fire was and have the ground warm YOU for a little while. 

The closest compromise for this presently in the game is the snow shelter. Personally, I'd love to be able to harvest boughs (emergency bedding!) and sleep on furniture other then a bed... but so far the snow shelter is the best we've got. 

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2 hours ago, pi972 said:

Why stop at 10? The indoors temp can get much higher than that with good clothing, and that's without a fire going.

Very good point! I was just referring to some of the cold places with no bed like Carter Dam, but I'd totally forgotten about that fire barrel downstairs!
In cases where we can warm up the room we should definitely be allowed to sleep on the floor, just like I did almost every day in boot camp :P

Light up that fire barrel, break down some cardboard boxes, and throw em on the floor next to the burning barrel. Hopefully that would be enough to let you sleep without getting hypothermia.
Hopefully lots of warm, layered clothing as well.

 

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On 21/06/2017 at 8:49 PM, Wasteland Watcher said:

I hope the goal, for Voyageur difficulty at least, is realism

 

10 hours ago, Wasteland Watcher said:

Realism isn't the prime goal

Well, excuse me if I'm wrong, but it appears to me that you just dismissed yourself. Also, note that I used "a prime goal", not "the prime goal".

 

10 hours ago, Wasteland Watcher said:

Given our current state of technology there isn't software available (yet) that can perfectly replicate a "post-apocalypse real life survival situation"

To be honest, as a computer engineer, I doubt that we'll get there someday.

 

11 hours ago, Wasteland Watcher said:

If you don't want a game that is "trying to be so realistic," there are literally thousands of games out there for you to play.

I wonder if one could really interpret my comment this way, maybe I need to learn to write better. My point is actually the opposite: the game not being so realistic. For what it's worth, my favourite genre of games is simulators. But anyway thanks for the hint, maybe I'm annoying some people while commenting stuff that makes sense to me.

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 I don't see anyone here being offensive or barbarous (besides perhaps me, to a degree), so we should let go of that. It's a good discussion.

 What the game is trying to do is an emulation of reality; a reality of limited scope. To truly emulate reality within a game would take a herculean effort and I believe this is where VR will take us in maybe ten years, but there must first be a few revolutions in computing.

 It is through restriction and hemming protocol that TLD is compelling; if one could do as they please - like sleeping on the floor - the game would lose its tension and with it the release from overcoming stacked odds. Removing the hard limits would level the game out into a plain, an empty slog without reward.

 As I said earlier in the thread, one should be careful what they wish for; pushing toward reality by righting wrongs would also require also letting go of that which benefits. That one sees a particular suspension of a reality as beneficial isn't an argument to support the removal of that which is seen as harmful; if one is subject to revision then so too must be the other. If we claim that sleeping on the floor should be included, then so too should the certain death that would accompany a vicious bear attack be included. It thus becomes a question of which reality should the game strive to emulate and in an almost infinite  regression, it becomes quite clear that the question is a fool's errand.

 So, we come back to the developers setting the version of reality, creating the field on which we play and making decisions not primarily based on what we want but what they want. Our job is to take the tools they give us and assist in making them more usable and to be fair, Hinterland have done a stellar job so far and they have my vote of confidence with fun field making.

 Is expanding the sleeping options a bad idea? Not at all and as I said earlier, if it were available, I would likely use it. The suggestion however, cannot come from an argument regarding any reality, nor from a place that levels any accusation at the current implementation. It's an idea, not a need; in truth, we don't know what we need because we are operating in Hinterland's reality and can only really know what we might want which takes us back to the mid-point of my post, the infinite regression.

 To compare the game to reality is inappropriate and to base criticism or even desire on a kinship with reality is a suspect notion with too many variables to take seriously. The reality is the confines of the game and this is the yardstick by which ideas should be measured. I believe that sleeping on floors of caves or structures would be detrimental to an aspect of the game that should be seen as more necessary than annoying.

 And I need to learn to write less. :(

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Also with caves sure the air temp might be warmer but I just presume that the ground / rock temp would be zero plus. either way you need pack your sleeping bag, makes sense to me! the coldness of sleeping directly on the ground would soon zap your body warmth. think about it. Either way you need a sleeping bag to erm sleep in this game it that simple :) or find a car or house bed.

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1 hour ago, slackhideo said:

I wonder if one could really interpret my comment this way

Obviously some could :P

And, I excuse you for being wrong. No problem, don't worry about it ;)

Off-topic but, "computer engineer" is very broad.  If you don't mind me asking, what's your specialty? 

I'm also an engineer  

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22 hours ago, slackhideo said:


In this regard, the "problems" of not being able to [try to] sleep anywhere and not being able to [try to] climb anytime are similar limitations. If realism was of paramount importance, the player would be able to do these things wherever / whenever he (she) wanted, as in real life. Why not just let the physics do its job?

huh, if your game character is tired in game yes you can sleep if not you cant. same with climbing so what is your point? what has physics got to do with anything?

to me it's pretty simple, if my my game character is tired i probably would not want to attempt a rope climb :)

 

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The thing about the current sleep/rest system is that it practically undos another mechanic introduced some versions ago: limited sprinting. Players and hinterland itself advertises that with limited stamina you have to choose carefully when to sprint and when to walk because you might need the stamina to outrun a wolf. That is true in theory but in reality there are two issues:

- without sprinting you spend more time outside, being exposed longer to low temperatures which is deadly on Interloper, especially past day 50
- do get a full night of sleep you need to be completely exhausted

Therefore the best advise right now is to sprint always all the time whenever you feel moderately safe from predators, because if you walk you will lose condition due to low temperature and you won't be exhausted enough to sleep through the night and regain as much condition as possible, so you loose double.

But even when I sprint as much as I can I often don't manage to exhaust myself completely so it has already become a ritual to jog around in the house or cave until my stamina is gone, rest for an hour, jog again and once I'm completely exhausted go to sleep for 12h.

I mean kudos to hinterland for trying to address the "hibernation problem" present in earlier versions but I don't like how they tried to fix it, because both Sleep/Rest and Cabin Fever are easily combated if you (have to) do stupid things like running around the house just to get exhausted when your condition is already very bad. C'mon guys, you can come up with better solutions or just pick one of the many suggestions offered in countless threads ;)

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4 hours ago, Wasteland Watcher said:

Obviously some could :P

Hahaha I have no words for that.

4 hours ago, Wasteland Watcher said:

And, I excuse you for being wrong. No problem, don't worry about it ;)

Oh so kind of you. Thank you very much indeed :P

4 hours ago, Wasteland Watcher said:

Off-topic but, "computer engineer" is very broad.  If you don't mind me asking, what's your specialty?

I agree that it is very broad, but it is what is written in my diploma. No problem, mate. I'm specialising in Machine Learning.

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