The new HUD looks awful


Fluffy23

Should the new HUD be added to the long dark  

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15 hours ago, Gleudal said:

i really appreciate all the changes, that hinterland did anounce with the upcoming update, but I also strongly disagree with this HUD. I think that the small pictures for health, cold, fatigue, thirst and hungar should stay as they currently are. I like the rest of the radial menu, i guess it will be good, but those 5 pictogramms look aweful. They are inaccurate, because they have different sizes and shapes and they are smaller. All in all they make it harder, not easier for me to know how much of the current state is left.

There should be at least a HUD option to retain the current bars.

Pls Hinterland! Pls dont take my percentages!

I'm also very scared by this new HUD, it doesn't come by itself either. They never answered the feedbacks about the new pollution elements they were introducing while picking up objects, the save wheele, the icons in the backpack etc. They clearly want to add details to everything while retaining some kind of minimalism but are loosing a clear view in the mean time.

This would be the culprit, as you said I don't care about the radial but I'm really scared that those icons will replace the numbers. I really hope and want to doubt that they would do such a thing. But even if they don't do that adding them to the radial is again another strange polutions that wasn't needed.

I also don't like how they look tout court. They have some kind of fine and unclear detail, I guess they like this kind of things on console. I don't want to complain so explicitly about someone else job but I think they only reflect poor taste.

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I don't disagree with it, it's still the developer's choice and they can to whatever they want, but I do prefer the current 'style' of the HUD/radial menu. Same as some other people, I like my bars.

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2 hours ago, Fluffy23 said:

The HUD was first posted on April fools day as a joke https://mobile.twitter.com/RaphLife/status/848268336123084800

Now they have taken this horrible design and put it on The long dark website!

 Okay, and...? If you quote someone, you should consider addressing the content of the quotation. ;)

 I will however reply to your words. The "joke" screenshot as you call it, was under the label "Messing around" as in, trying some new things - at least that's the way I read it. Yes, it was April 1st, but that doesn't mean that everything said or done on that day is false or a joke. People do actual work on that day and say serious stuff too. Apparently, he wasn't joking. Fine...not a foundation for your rejection regardless.

 Finally, "horrible design" is subjective and we are now back to my words you quoted, which you can simply re-read to save me some time.

 FWIW, I don't mind the look of it personally, but can't say much more until I've actually used it.

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2 hours ago, Fluffy23 said:

If they keep the tab HUD the same way. I'll be happy.

Quick question mate. So, in the end, if all your assumptions end up being the wrong ones... wouldn't you feel a bit ashamed of how you behaved about this topic in particular? 

Seriously, just relax. Even if you lose some bars in a HUD... do you really feel that is worth getting angry about it? Anger leads to all short of illness, don't let it consume you (I feel like Yoda :D)

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1 hour ago, Carbon said:

 Okay, and...? If you quote someone, you should consider addressing the content of the quotation. ;)

 I will however reply to your words. The "joke" screenshot as you call it, was under the label "Messing around" as in, trying some new things - at least that's the way I read it. Yes, it was April 1st, but that doesn't mean that everything said or done on that day is false or a joke. People do actual work on that day and say serious stuff too. Apparently, he wasn't joking. Fine...not a foundation for your rejection regardless.

 Finally, "horrible design" is subjective and we are now back to my words you quoted, which you can simply re-read to save me some time.

 FWIW, I don't mind the look of it personally, but can't say much more until I've actually used it.

^ THIS! :D Thank you @Carbon.

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We've only shared a snapshot of the newly proposed UI -- there's a lot more to it that I hope we'll get to dive into more with the upcoming Faithful Cartographer additions.

Limiting your feedback to "horrible" doesn't give us much of a starting point for discussion (not everyone here is doing that, I realize. Thank you for that). 

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5 hours ago, Docterrok said:

I'm afraid I'm going to have to apply the age old saying on this subject... "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"

 Not sure if that adage applies to unfinished art. "If you don't like it, don't change it"? Aside from this, its a screenshot! We have no idea how it works, what it feels like or how it plays. Its like judging a car by the color.

 I think that this highlights one of the problems with early access: people get used to things that might change. The game we have been playing all this time is unfinished, unreleased and therefore still fluid and in a state of flux. I suspect that when the big release comes and many things we have become accustomed to are different, there will be a similar wave of antipathy toward some altered aspects; its human nature but that doesn't mean its right.

 Hinterland are making the game they want to make and so far, their game mechanic and art style decisions have been stellar, so let's just give them space to do their thing.

 To comment on what I can see in the screenshot: the new HUD looks lighter, less chunky and less 'holding your hand' explanatory, in a good sense. The old HUD established the ideas of thirst, hunger, etc, but was needlessly 'in-your-face' in this explanation, a bit too obvious and lacked subtlety. The new icon system, coupled with a less chunky, more blended radial menu, one that doesn't take you 'out of the game' so much, and seems more fitting, almost an apparition, a ghostly, translucent overlay, as if made of a whisp or dusting of snow. The icons are clear as to what they pertain to, and will *hopefully* maintain the color change to red as things get low. Clean, simple visual indicators without on-screen text; minimalist, which is a better fit for the game.

But, Let's just wait and see before we make claims for or against anything.

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17 hours ago, Patrick Carlson said:

Limiting your feedback to "horrible" doesn't give us much of a starting point for discussion (not everyone here is doing that, I realize. Thank you for that). 

Current - good(or at least decent, in either case, better than new one), new concept - bad(each have their own reasons, but many people dont like it).

Personal preference - id like fully customizable slots in radial menu and more of them, at least 2 more circles. Purpose(presumable) of the radial menu is to make things easier and faster, but in current version i have often to do same amount of clicks as with accessing inventory and half the stuff that i would like to have there is not even present(so it kinda fails at it most basic function). At the same time there are options that i dont use(i refuse to use snow shelter on principle, as it is still ridiculously op in right situation, at ridiculously low cost) and there are actually empty slots, that i would love to fill with something.

11 hours ago, Carbon said:

 Not sure if that adage applies to unfinished art. "If you don't like it, don't change it"? Aside from this, its a screenshot! We have no idea how it works, what it feels like or how it plays. Its like judging a car by the color.

Unfinished ? What exactly is unfinished about it ?

And yes, its screenshot, of remodeled visual representation of feature that is already presented in the game. People are not complaining about how radial menu works, but about how it looks. Assessment that can easily made based on one screenshot.

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 I think that this highlights one of the problems with early access: people get used to things that might change. The game we have been playing all this time is unfinished, unreleased and therefore still fluid and in a state of flux. I suspect that when the big release comes and many things we have become accustomed to are different, there will be a similar wave of antipathy toward some altered aspects; its human nature but that doesn't mean its right.

Fact that people get used to things has, yet again, nothing to do with the fact that people dislike how new hud looks. People may be used to some horrible feature and when its improved, then everyone will cheer for that change, even tho they got used to old bad one already.

Parasites are fairly dated feature, yet i would be cheering for it removal or change, and something as ridiculous as "but im used to it" wouldnt even cross my mind.

In general fact that game is in EA doesnt mean that every aspect of it WILL change, it is merely implied that it MAY change if necessary. And even if change is needed, it doesnt mean that result of that change will be better than previous iteration of this feature.

So yeah, dont fix what is not broken. And while radial menu is far from being particularly useful, new version of it neither fix this issue nor improve on it in any way.

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 Hinterland are making the game they want to make and so far, their game mechanic and art style decisions have been stellar, so let's just give them space to do their thing.

Except that they are making game for others to play. If it would be some private project, then nobody would be complaining. And stellar...not so much... Further it goes, more features i see that i dislike, while many old issues are not being addressed in any way.

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 To comment on what I can see in the screenshot: the new HUD looks lighter, less chunky and less 'holding your hand' explanatory, in a good sense. The old HUD established the ideas of thirst, hunger, etc, but was needlessly 'in-your-face' in this explanation, a bit too obvious and lacked subtlety. The new icon system, coupled with a less chunky, more blended radial menu, one that doesn't take you 'out of the game' so much, and seems more fitting, almost an apparition, a ghostly, translucent overlay, as if made of a whisp or dusting of snow. The icons are clear as to what they pertain to, and will *hopefully* maintain the color change to red as things get low. Clean, simple visual indicators without on-screen text; minimalist, which is a better fit for the game.

New HUD looks partially transparent, that means that on bright background it will be barely visible and, by extension, pretty much useless. By "holding your hand" you probably refer to fact that it looks less informative(always a good thing, having a bunch of icons that you have no idea what they mean) and obvious. Old HUD brought player stats only on press of a button, stats were well defined and conveyed their purpose without pointless clutter. That reference to "out of the game" is so absurd that i have no idea on how to reply to it(its from same retarded category as "immersive" huds with nothing on them). Then there was some crap about dust, snow, whipering, etc, that means literally nothing. Icons in current version of HUD is as clear as what they pertain to, and without stickmen that nobody have any idea what are referring 2. They are also sharp and easy to read, without all that transparent crap. And last sentence refers to far more to current HUD, rather than concept of a new one.

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55 minutes ago, Dirmagnos said:

Unfinished ? What exactly is unfinished about it ?

And yes, its screenshot, of remodeled visual representation of feature that is already presented in the game. People are not complaining about how radial menu works, but about how it looks. Assessment that can easily made based on one screenshot.

Fact that people get used to things has, yet again, nothing to do with the fact that people dislike how new hud looks. People may be used to some horrible feature and when its improved, then everyone will cheer for that change, even tho they got used to old bad one already.

Parasites are fairly dated feature, yet i would be cheering for it removal or change, and something as ridiculous as "but im used to it" wouldnt even cross my mind.

In general fact that game is in EA doesnt mean that every aspect of it WILL change, it is merely implied that it MAY change if necessary. And even if change is needed, it doesnt mean that result of that change will be better than previous iteration of this feature.

So yeah, dont fix what is not broken. And while radial menu is far from being particularly useful, new version of it neither fix this issue nor improve on it in any way.

Except that they are making game for others to play. If it would be some private project, then nobody would be complaining. And stellar...not so much... Further it goes, more features i see that i dislike, while many old issues are not being addressed in any way.

New HUD looks partially transparent, that means that on bright background it will be barely visible and, by extension, pretty much useless. By "holding your hand" you probably refer to fact that it looks less informative(always a good thing, having a bunch of icons that you have no idea what they mean) and obvious. Old HUD brought player stats only on press of a button, stats were well defined and conveyed their purpose without pointless clutter. That reference to "out of the game" is so absurd that i have no idea on how to reply to it(its from same retarded category as "immersive" huds with nothing on them). Then there was some crap about dust, snow, whipering, etc, that means literally nothing. Icons in current version of HUD is as clear as what they pertain to, and without stickmen that nobody have any idea what are referring 2. They are also sharp and easy to read, without all that transparent crap. And last sentence refers to far more to current HUD, rather than concept of a new one.

 I've omitted your reply to Patrick as I can't speak for him.

 First, thank you for taking the time to reply in such detail. Always good to have meaningful conversation.

 Now, as for what is or isn't being done behind the scenes, that's anyone's guess right now. Nobody knows the full list of changes being made or what is being addressed, changed or altered.

 That people get used to things and generally reject new things is very relevant here. It is a long-proven fact that this phenomenon exists and has a very strong effect; it is one of many cognitive biases that influence and guide our thoughts. Your comparison of the HUD to parasites is flawed; the two have no relationship by which to be compared. Apples and waffles mate and while I am all for a good metaphor or simile, I just don't see either.

 You are partially correct about what can or cannot be discerned from a screenshot but where I would take issue is that we are unaware of the implementation. For example, we don't know if elements of it will always be on-screen. Looking at the current system, they likely won't or perhaps will be a toggle (I think the developers want to keep the screen clear of this until 'requested' by the player). Second, we can't see the dynamic elements. The icons at the bottom may likely change to red as the bars currently do; if so, I think that will add much to their presentation, the information they provide, the level of detail of that information (granularity) and the speed at which that can be relayed. That they go down instead of to the left makes more sense to me; they 'drain' now, in a visual manner making the transmission of information faster and more meaningful to the player.

  The removal of on-screen text from a HUD is always a good thing (less truly pointless clutter). Players don't even read the text anymore because they are trained to know the order of the bars and which means what. Developers spend inordinate amounts of time on this type of thing; silhouette or outline of an icon is critical for players to get information quickly without confusion. Don't forget that we are 'veteran' players already; many new players will come to the game when it launches and they are being spoken about here. It is not less meaningful at all. Quite the opposite in fact, but in a different way. If text were the best way to transmit messages, then why are emojis so popular? Its because of more than just convenience or laziness and while this is just one example, it represents the tip of a much-researched iceberg of information; tl;dr: text isn't always the best way to transfer information, particularly in a video game. Finally, on that point, icons need no translation. Yes, its a big deal if you consider the big picture.

 You employ the word "retarded", so I assume you will miss the finer nuances of this next bit, as you did with what I wrote earlier, but I assure you that anyone with any sense of the aesthetic will relate to my words well enough. When I speculated that the HUD perhaps takes one 'out of the game', I meant that the HUD seems separate from it; it is too defined, too solid, slapped over the screen. The new HUD is actually part of the game, more organic and suited to what's behind it and thus 'fits' into the game making its presence less intrusive or removing, to keep with my earlier words. I hope too that they incorporate more of a 'fade-in' and 'fade-out' to it when called up and taken down; this will be even less 'jarring' and again promote it as being less intrusive. The new HUD seems to be made from snow and while the words I employed earlier may mean nothing to you, again, I think this may speak more about you than the words themselves or my having used them. I'm not trying to insult you, but I think this is a valid point to make and you did admit to having no idea what I meant.

 I assume the new HUD will have shadowing enough to make all of its elements visible against a while background. If this were not so in a game that features miles of it, well, that would be Hinterlands breaking a truly elementary rule. It was shown here against a dark background to give us a clear look but it will function just as well against a snow drift in-game. That you assume they hadn't thought of this is again revealing.

 You added the disclaimer "if necessary" but this isn't the condition under which game element changes exist. Things change as the developers see fit. And "fit" is the word here; they saw the HUD as somehow contrary or not aligned with their vision of the game and fixed it. Furthermore, it isn't about something being 'broken' or 'fixed' in the 'not functioning' sense, it is about cohesion.

 Finally, I use the radial menu quite a bit. You may come back and claim that people use key binds, but I will counter-claim that I am used to it and hate change. :)

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4 hours ago, Carbon said:

That people get used to things and generally reject new things is very relevant here. It is a long-proven fact that this phenomenon exists and has a very strong effect; it is one of many cognitive biases that influence and guide our thoughts. Your comparison of the HUD to parasites is flawed; the two have no relationship by which to be compared. Apples and waffles mate and while I am all for a good metaphor or simile, I just don't see either.

Correlation does not imply ausation. The fact that this phenomenon exist doesnt mean that it is applicable in this situation.

And comparison to parasites is quite relevant, as it shows that removal/change of existing features does not imply outrage by players. In fact changing or removing bad features usually result in quite positive reaction from playerbase, regardless of age of those features. And at the same time, again, regardless of age of those features, fiddling with positive and/or working features generally generates negative reaction. Same goes for fiddling with features that may not work particularly well, but changes seem to make them even worse. Eg. "dont fix what is not broken(or at least dont break it further if it is)".

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 You are partially correct about what can or cannot be discerned from a screenshot but where I would take issue is that we are unaware of the implementation. For example, we don't know if elements of it will always be on-screen. Looking at the current system, they likely won't or perhaps will be a toggle (I think the developers want to keep the screen clear of this until 'requested' by the player). Second, we can't see the dynamic elements. The icons at the bottom may likely change to red as the bars currently do; if so, I think that will add much to their presentation, the information they provide, the level of detail of that information (granularity) and the speed at which that can be relayed. That they go down instead of to the left makes more sense to me; they 'drain' now, in a visual manner making the transmission of information faster and more meaningful to the player.

Of course we cant discern much from just one screenshot, therefore missing pieces are filled based on already exiting system.

Toggle or not, if this will replace current HUD screen, it will actually be a downgrade, as those icons, due to fact that they are smaller, will provide player with less information. So we get feature that works in similar fashion to current, but its worse. Bars are far easier to track and minimal changes in them are far better visible.

Not to mention that visual coherence of new HUD seems to be rather horrible. On one side we have lonely health bar, and then we have pictographs for basic needs(they could just add hart as pictograph for health). They visually conflict with each other - either all statuses should be pictographs or all should be icons. On top of that is progression, bar is horizontal, pictographs seem to be vertical. Etc. In general feels that HUD was just put together from random parts, lacking any unified logic.

Colors of those pictographs are also of little relevance, as yet again, it does not provide player with proper detail of information as it may needed for proper management of needs. There will be either gradients of color, that most people wont be able to discern or it will be just a bit red or a lot red, again, giving little details on what is going on. Compared to that bars are far easier to follow and give far better overview of player status. Numbers are of course best from that standpoint, especially if they are color coded, as secondary indicator, but bars are second best in that department.

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  The removal of on-screen text from a HUD is always a good thing (less truly pointless clutter). Players don't even read the text anymore because they are trained to know the order of the bars and which means what. Developers spend inordinate amounts of time on this type of thing; silhouette or outline of an icon is critical for players to get information quickly without confusion. Don't forget that we are 'veteran' players already; many new players will come to the game when it launches and they are being spoken about here. It is not less meaningful at all. Quite the opposite in fact, but in a different way. If text were the best way to transmit messages, then why are emojis so popular? Its because of more than just convenience or laziness and while this is just one example, it represents the tip of a much-researched iceberg of information; tl;dr: text isn't always the best way to transfer information, particularly in a video game. Finally, on that point, icons need no translation. Yes, its a big deal if you consider the big picture.

Removal of on screen text is bad idea in general, as it provides player with less information about his surroundings and his status. Then you went into a bit of completely unsupported conjectures.

And text is still the best way of transmitting messages, thats why it is still the most common and effective way of conveying information. And yes, emojis exist purely for convenience or laziness, because people are 2 lazy or 2 insecure to write proper message, as emojis usually lack context without text and often are used to reinforce message conveyed by text. Other than showing most basic emotions emojis are completely useless. Nobody, literally nobody, uses emojis for passing of any relevant information.

And yes, in many cases, icons require translation, as they, on its own do not contain any without context. Having an eye for showing how tired player is is NOT an obvious indicator, while word "sleepy" or "tired" is. And while player can get used to associate those icons with certain conditions, he does it only after learning meaning of those icons...presented in text. Icons are good only in supplementary or auxiliary form - without proper meaning given their usefulness is limited.

And pls, provide me with links to this "much-researched iceberg".

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 You employ the word "retarded", so I assume you will miss the finer nuances of this next bit, as you did with what I wrote earlier, but I assure you that anyone with any sense of the aesthetic will relate to my words well enough. When I speculated that the HUD perhaps takes one 'out of the game', I meant that the HUD seems separate from it; it is too defined, too solid, slapped over the screen. The new HUD is actually part of the game, more organic and suited to what's behind it and thus 'fits' into the game making its presence less intrusive or removing, to keep with my earlier words. I hope too that they incorporate more of a 'fade-in' and 'fade-out' to it when called up and taken down; this will be even less 'jarring' and again promote it as being less intrusive. The new HUD seems to be made from snow and while the words I employed earlier may mean nothing to you, again, I think this may speak more about you than the words themselves or my having used them. I'm not trying to insult you, but I think this is a valid point to make and you did admit to having no idea what I meant.

Aesthetic is irrelevant if HUD fails at it primary function - to convey information. Purpose of HUD is to provide player with information that would otherwise be available for him irl thru his other senses, like feeling of pain or cold. But in gaming replicating such sensory output is only possible thru audio-visual output - you cant feel pain from being gored, but you can see it effects by your health bar going down. Having no indicator of taking damage is like having CIPA in real life, as its exactly how it works - no pain, no pain, no pain, and then suddenly dead.

Thats why i call people who consider lack of HUD to be immersive, morons/imbeciles/retards, etc. You get my point. Its like saying that being blind or deaf(or having any of numerous conditions that affect any of our senses) is normal.

And how exactly do you define new HUD to be "organic", comapred to current one. By what measurements or conditions ? How exactly "made from snow" makes it more organic ?

I find it actually to be quite the opposite. I need to take just one peek and get all the information i need, as i have no time to spend an hour of ingame time "feeling" how im doing. Or contemplating if i have enough energy to do something based on this little crappy icon that due to it size prevents me from obtaining exact information regarding my condition.

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 I assume the new HUD will have shadowing enough to make all of its elements visible against a while background. If this were not so in a game that features miles of it, well, that would be Hinterlands breaking a truly elementary rule. It was shown here against a dark background to give us a clear look but it will function just as well against a snow drift in-game. That you assume they hadn't thought of this is again revealing.

Even on dark background it has extremely poor visibility. On a bright day, on white background it will be nothing but a smudge.

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 You added the disclaimer "if necessary" but this isn't the condition under which game element changes exist. Things change as the developers see fit. And "fit" is the word here; they saw the HUD as somehow contrary or not aligned with their vision of the game and fixed it. Furthermore, it isn't about something being 'broken' or 'fixed' in the 'not functioning' sense, it is about cohesion.

Games, at least in this instance, are build for public. And while developer vision is important, on its own its irrelevant, as if game do not fit into consumer expectations, then they will not buy it(or those who already own it will give it negative reviews, leading to less people even considering it), devs will have no money for development and whole sting with stall. Its a two-way street.

And new HUD is not particularly cohesive either, as it feels more like a bunch of random elements piled together without any common variable.

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Correlation does not imply ausation. The fact that this phenomenon exist doesnt mean that it is applicable in this situation.

And comparison to parasites is quite relevant, as it shows that removal/change of existing features does not imply outrage by players. In fact changing or removing bad features usually result in quite positive reaction from playerbase, regardless of age of those features. And at the same time, again, regardless of age of those features, fiddling with positive and/or working features generally generates negative reaction. Same goes for fiddling with features that may not work particularly well, but changes seem to make them even worse. Eg. "dont fix what is not broken(or at least dont break it further if it is)".

 Thanks once again for such a detailed response!

 It's a fair point, but the idea behind the phrase does not discount the potential of the familiarity heuristic being a factor. One would have to do an examination of other possible factors that would create resistance, in this case consider the deficiencies of the new HUD in comparison to the old. If we ask what the old does that the new doesn't then we can rule out influencing factors until we are left with only bias as an explanation to the resistance.

 Assuming that Hinterland knows what information needs to be provided to players and how to best present it - that they developed both HUDs in question, one of which you fully endorse supports this premise - it stands to reason that the new HUD achieves the same task functionally. If it didn't provide the needed information comprehensively and in a manner that best serves the player, Hinterland would not use it. Thus functionally, both HUDs are equal. This then leaves us only with the aesthetic or visual presentation, the form. Judgements of taste are of an individual nature and are therefore essentially beyond proof and practically inarguable. This takes us away from objective reasoning or questions of aesthetics and into psychology and how then does this fit into our HUD discussion? The best fit here is to turn to bias - the low-level word for "preference" - which takes us back to the familiarity heuristic. Having removed the question of function from the discussion we are only left with individual preferences, which cannot be argued precisely because they are unique to individuals and are furthermore based on preferences which are shaped by biases. Your point still stands, but the correlation as being the agent of causation is quite strong here and cannot be dismissed so easily. While I may not have proven conclusively that bias has indeed caused your dislike of the new HUD, I have made a credible argument that it just may be so. But nobody wants to give up on a discussion they have much invested in, right?

 Comparing the mechanic of parasites to the HUD doesn't work. One is by nature negative, threatening, to be avoided and thus disliked. It causes direct harm to the character and can be fatal, in this case, game-ending. The HUD is benign, has no action for or against the character, is sought-out, a necessary presence and is thus of a completely different nature. It is to compare a dislike for a street sign to a dislike of being hit by a car; that one dislikes both does not make them comparable. The only fair comparison in this situation is another UI element or something that has both function and form, which the parasites mechanic does not.

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Of course we cant discern much from just one screenshot, therefore missing pieces are filled based on already exiting system.

Toggle or not, if this will replace current HUD screen, it will actually be a downgrade, as those icons, due to fact that they are smaller, will provide player with less information. So we get feature that works in similar fashion to current, but its worse. Bars are far easier to track and minimal changes in them are far better visible.

Not to mention that visual coherence of new HUD seems to be rather horrible. On one side we have lonely health bar, and then we have pictographs for basic needs(they could just add hart as pictograph for health). They visually conflict with each other - either all statuses should be pictographs or all should be icons. On top of that is progression, bar is horizontal, pictographs seem to be vertical. Etc. In general feels that HUD was just put together from random parts, lacking any unified logic.

Colors of those pictographs are also of little relevance, as yet again, it does not provide player with proper detail of information as it may needed for proper management of needs. There will be either gradients of color, that most people wont be able to discern or it will be just a bit red or a lot red, again, giving little details on what is going on. Compared to that bars are far easier to follow and give far better overview of player status. Numbers are of course best from that standpoint, especially if they are color coded, as secondary indicator, but bars are second best in that department.

 

 The icons may be smaller thanks to an increased resolution for the screenshot (this was already alluded to in another post, I believe). In other words, perception. The scale may not be well-represented. Size does not diminish content. It may affect readability, but not the actual information conveyed. That they may be more difficult to see in the screenshot goes back to my first point, and who knows, they may be adjustable in scale. Another unknown. I agree that the heath bar is...off somehow, but I think that the status icons and radial wheel are well done and have already outlined why I believe this is so. However, due to the health bar, I am in general agreement with your assessment that something needs to change, but I believe it is the health bar alone that needs tweaking.

 That you like the bars is again an aesthetic, personal choice and has no objective foundation (unarguable). The new icons are equally capable of providing that information as easily and again as I have already stated, more cohesively. I think it is safe to say that Hinterland are going for a minimalist, text-free, numberless HUD (where less is more), a decision which I endorse. I suspect that it will be more convincing in action, as I do have faith in the team to continue to make excellent aesthetic choices. I will address how you feel about immersive HUDs later but will claim that this isn't so much about immersion as artistic cohesion.

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Removal of on screen text is bad idea in general, as it provides player with less information about his surroundings and his status. Then you went into a bit of completely unsupported conjectures.

And text is still the best way of transmitting messages, thats why it is still the most common and effective way of conveying information. And yes, emojis exist purely for convenience or laziness, because people are 2 lazy or 2 insecure to write proper message, as emojis usually lack context without text and often are used to reinforce message conveyed by text. Other than showing most basic emotions emojis are completely useless. Nobody, literally nobody, uses emojis for passing of any relevant information.

And yes, in many cases, icons require translation, as they, on its own do not contain any without context. Having an eye for showing how tired player is is NOT an obvious indicator, while word "sleepy" or "tired" is. And while player can get used to associate those icons with certain conditions, he does it only after learning meaning of those icons...presented in text. Icons are good only in supplementary or auxiliary form - without proper meaning given their usefulness is limited.

And pls, provide me with links to this "much-researched iceberg".

 

 I could reiterate my previous point about how less is more but that would be pointless. As for my venture into conjecture, hardly. I don't know how much you know about game development (or design aesthetics in general) -  I am no expert on games but it has been a lay interest of mine for a number of years - but what I wrote is not conjecture. Text is the best method of transmitting certain kinds of messages yes, but not in this context. And context is the key here; repeated, non-unique transmission of information is best done graphically. Emojis are not around due to user laziness but the repetitious banality of the messages sent. We tend to have short, predictable 'conversations' with particular devices; cell phones are particularly unique in this area. They are clumsy to type on and people are often using them in situations where they haven't the time to write long streams of text. This, coupled with the tendency of non-unique repetition promotes a simple and more effective method; graphically. In the TLD HUD, why have text? I suppose I can only speak for myself when I say that I don't read the text above the bars anymore, nor do I read the text inside (slated, dry mouth, etc.). I don't need to read it and doing so would slow down the transmission of the information. The color change alone is enough to provide the reasonably precise approximation I need and I suspect that I'm not alone in this. It is anecdotal I suppose, but it seems that Hinterland concurs; text is out. A Google search for "PC game HUD" will clearly show that while text still has a role in some detailing (and of course, genre is a variable), icons are always larger, easier to identify with and again, after the player has learned the TLD HUD, I contend that words are needless.

 Using text means language and for developers, this means more money spent for translation. Pictures are universal however, exemplified by cell phones perhaps the best, but not exhaustively. The iPhone looks essentially the same no matter what country it is bought or operated in; icons serve everyone's purpose. Look at street signs, bathroom signs in stores, no smoking signs, do not enter signs...the world is brimming with instantly recognizable, non-unique, repetitive iconography (not words) for a good reason and PC games are no different. Reading is slower than seeing and reading takes far more effort (cognition) than seeing. Yes, players must learn; key bindings, mechanics; there is a lot we learn in a remarkably short time and included in this learning curve is the HUD. A fully open eye, a half-closed eye and a fully closed eye translate just fine. Yes, some granularity may be lost, but the bars are also somewhat vague in this way, at least no better or worse than a stomach icon that goes from fully filled in down to clear or empty again, assuming that the icons will be bigger (more readable) than they appear in the screenshot.

  As for proof, well I meant not only academic, but common sense, examples of which I gave above, but the document linked below would be a good enough start. Google can provide the rest of the iceberg. The principle is quite easy to find (maybe search for "non-diegetic" or "extra-diagetic" GUI/HUD elements, etc) and again, these are not my ideas; they are well-founded principles of design.

http://ptgmedia.pearsoncmg.com/images/9780321902498/samplepages/0321902491.pdf

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Aesthetic is irrelevant if HUD fails at it primary function - to convey information. Purpose of HUD is to provide player with information that would otherwise be available for him irl thru his other senses, like feeling of pain or cold. But in gaming replicating such sensory output is only possible thru audio-visual output - you cant feel pain from being gored, but you can see it effects by your health bar going down. Having no indicator of taking damage is like having CIPA in real life, as its exactly how it works - no pain, no pain, no pain, and then suddenly dead.

Thats why i call people who consider lack of HUD to be immersive, morons/imbeciles/retards, etc. You get my point. Its like saying that being blind or deaf(or having any of numerous conditions that affect any of our senses) is normal.

And how exactly do you define new HUD to be "organic", comapred to current one. By what measurements or conditions ? How exactly "made from snow" makes it more organic ?

I find it actually to be quite the opposite. I need to take just one peek and get all the information i need, as i have no time to spend an hour of ingame time "feeling" how im doing. Or contemplating if i have enough energy to do something based on this little crappy icon that due to it size prevents me from obtaining exact information regarding my condition.

 

 Every HUD, even the most poorly-designed HUD, conveys information; this is the very definition of a HUD and makes your condition under which one can disregard the aesthetic moot. I am very aware of the purpose of a HUD and contend that the aesthetic cannot be separated from the purpose of conveying information. If it could, then why not just overlay in Times New Roman plaintext "Your Thirst Level is seventy-eight percent depleted" or "Your Hunger Level is twenty-one percent depleted"? If we are not concerned with the aesthetic then the HUD is reduced to pure function. Even your beloved bars are an aesthetic choice. Show me a game where this is true; where the HUD has been designed quite outside the overall aesthetic of a game or where is serves no aesthetic purpose at all. You cannot. Find me a HUD that does not convey information (not a question of how well, but yes or no). Again, it is an impossible task.

 Organic. Do you want a definition within the context of design? I mean, its not my term; it is well known primarily in architecture but has been used as a descriptor for many design aspects in modern times. I suppose it could summarize as relating to the flow, line, shape and cohesion of an object and then how it suits, integrates or becomes a complimentary part of the environment in which it is situated. In this sense, perhaps my words acquire more clarity.

 The rest of this is just subjective taste again to which you are of course entitled to like what you might. This does not mean that it is 'right' or 'better' or even 'good' however, its just what you prefer. Why do you have to call people who are simply different from you anything at all? Seems puerile but that's your business. I'd prefer your not using it and certainly not towards me; that would end this and any further interaction between us.

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Even on dark background it has extremely poor visibility. On a bright day, on white background it will be nothing but a smudge.

 How do you know this? Are you privy to information that nobody else is? On this point, you nor anyone else has anything to say. Again, if you think that Hinterland would make such a silly error, then I guess you just need more faith in their ability to make the HUD visible in-game. That's what you're saying here: that they will design and use a HUD that cannot be read in-game. Really? Come on...

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Games, at least in this instance, are build for public. And while developer vision is important, on its own its irrelevant, as if game do not fit into consumer expectations, then they will not buy it(or those who already own it will give it negative reviews, leading to less people even considering it), devs will have no money for development and whole sting with stall. Its a two-way street.

And new HUD is not particularly cohesive either, as it feels more like a bunch of random elements piled together without any common variable

 

  You seem to feel that Hinterland owe you more than a game, that you have a share or stake in this beyond being a consumer. They don't and you don't. Sure, your feedback may be useful and your support is important, but don't read too much into that. Art is always precariously balanced between expression and commerce to which most artists in history will attest. I believe that games are art before anything; Raphael had a vision of an experience and needed other artists to assist him in that realization. Of course the team needs money - we all do - but it isn't what makes me get up in the morning, nor do I believe it is what is the primary motivator for the team. Yes, I'm idealistic, but I would rather be that than be anesthetized and cynical in life.

 Your last sentence has already been discussed; aside from the health bar, I disagree.

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23 hours ago, Karl Grylls said:

I think this poll is corrupted. It says 36 members have voted, but behind the bars there stand 16 and 18. That makes 34. Wtf?

It's probably a moderator sabotaging the poll, because he really wants the new HUD in the game.

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On 06/05/2017 at 0:53 AM, Ohbal said:

Quick question mate. So, in the end, if all your assumptions end up being the wrong ones... wouldn't you feel a bit ashamed of how you behaved about this topic in particular? 

Seriously, just relax. Even if you lose some bars in a HUD... do you really feel that is worth getting angry about it? Anger leads to all short of illness, don't let it consume you (I feel like Yoda :D)

If all my assumptions end up being wrong and the HUD turned out to be good I wouldn't fell ashamed. Because I'd be too busy enjoying the update then to care about this topic.

But if the HUD turns out to be horrible then I will not bother paying for all the story mode seasons that hinterland creates in the future. I'd just download them from a third party website instead.

 (Don't take that as a threat hinterland. You have already taken over 1 million dollars from others)

 

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2 hours ago, Fluffy23 said:

If all my assumptions end up being wrong and the HUD turned out to be good I wouldn't fell ashamed. Because I'd be too busy enjoying the update then to care about this topic.

But if the HUD turns out to be horrible then I will not bother paying for all the story mode seasons that hinterland creates in the future. I'd just download them from a third party website instead.

 (Don't take that as a threat hinterland. You have already taken over 1 million dollars from others)

 

 Very classy.

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10 hours ago, Fluffy23 said:

If all my assumptions end up being wrong and the HUD turned out to be good I wouldn't fell ashamed. Because I'd be too busy enjoying the update then to care about this topic.

But if the HUD turns out to be horrible then I will not bother paying for all the story mode seasons that hinterland creates in the future. I'd just download them from a third party website instead.

 (Don't take that as a threat hinterland. You have already taken over 1 million dollars from others)

 

I think that is very illegal.

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10 hours ago, Fluffy23 said:

If all my assumptions end up being wrong and the HUD turned out to be good I wouldn't fell ashamed. Because I'd be too busy enjoying the update then to care about this topic.

But if the HUD turns out to be horrible then I will not bother paying for all the story mode seasons that hinterland creates in the future. I'd just download them from a third party website instead.

 (Don't take that as a threat hinterland. You have already taken over 1 million dollars from others)

 

Discussion of game piracy goes against our posted community guidelines. And beyond that, it's just plain unfriendly. 

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11 hours ago, Fluffy23 said:

if the HUD turns out to be horrible then I will not bother paying for all the story mode seasons that hinterland creates in the future. I'd just download them from a third party website instead.

Since hinterlands is considering having a modding community it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to say that someone will make a mod to fix the awful HUD. If hinterlands is dead set on this bad HUD then it would not be too much more for you to just go to the steam workshop and download a mod rather than pirate the game.

Honestly getting mod support is one of my most anticipated features because that would allow the community to add things that hinterlands just doesnt have time to fix or implement (such as maintaining a good UI, rebalancing certain mechanics, new content etc.). Once we get modding you should be able to change most anything you want which should both fix most complaints for the game and maintain a community for years after release as mods produce more content. i mean for crying out loud morrowind is 15 years old now and still has an active community due to mod support. minecraft and skyrim are 5 years old (which is still old for a game) and they both have an active community.

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