Rethink the Sleeping System


Gleudal

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Hej hej,

how realistic is the sleeping system? I mean do we have an alarmclock from the very start always with us to wake us up (electrical :) )? Like I said in another thread before I dont like freezing to death without getting any sign of warning. But whats the explanation for planning my sleeping hours exactly? I think here should be done some work. Also i dont like the current system where i need to play cards for two hours before i got to sleep again only to start 100% awake for the next morning. Its inconveniant and unrealistic.

Some Thoughts: 

1. could find a mechanical alarm clock (needs to be winded up) to plan the sleepingtime exactly, would not be possible without

2. wake up after a random time when we rested up at least to 75% or so - would make coffee a really important item if you really should not fall asleep, because sleeping would take longer than it would be good for you

3. wake up from several events:

- storm - you would hear the noise and not just stay sleeping, come on

- cold - not exactly sure how the human body works on extreme conditions, but IRL I wake up, when i feel cold

- attack - already implemented

- sometimes noise of (close) animals (could also be an element to not get sleep, because its to loud, same with storm, would also depend on level of tiredness)

- injuries and pain

- psychological events (if something like this will be implemented; waking up from terrible scenes crossing your mind)

- sunshine into your face (one of the better ways to wake up, i guess)

- beeing sleepless or having problems to get sleep during full moon (could be applied with the seasonal changes)

4. making it harder to stay awake when completly entired

- events where you pass out for a short time could happen

- would be able to combine with a level of how strong your will is

- extreme events that keep you awake (idk hurting yourself to feel the pain to not be able to sleep or something like that)

5. with those events there should be a difference or rebalancing of the current tiredness system (i can burn my tirednessbar within 3h or so, if i want; with climbing even faster) Its a difference if you are unable to sprint or cant hold your eyes open

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1. What if you forget to wind it up ? Also it is possible to train oneself by following certain sleep regime, and even go to sleep and wake up at preset times without any external help.

2. Different people have different sleep needs, some can go on with just 4 hours, others need full 10. Also, exhaustion, sleep regiment and various conditions can affect it greatly. Didnt get whole part about coffee, as either interpretation i could come up with dosnt make much sense.

3. Coming on, i sleep best when its raining or storm outside. I generally dont have much problems with sleep, but during those events i sleep like a log.

Irl you wake up when you feel chilled, not cold. Freezing shares a lot of common traits with sleep, so there is a reason why people who are freezing also tend to become sleepy.

Noise goes into same category with storm and self-conditioning. When i was younger i had period when i couldnt go to sleep without radio playing. Took awhile to get rid of this habit.

If injury occurred prior to going to sleep, depending on nature of injury it may have no effect on sleep.

No, just no. Pls, no psychological thriller crap. Its absurd and completely unnecessary.

Erm, full moon ?!!?!!? Seriously ?

4. For any of that to occur protagonist must be really tired, like going 3-days-without-sleep tired. Hel run out of health before that. "Will" has nothing to do with that, its mainly chemical issue, and unless person is trained to withstand tiredness, then he will just pass out and slide to sleep from there.

Hurting yourself is not particularly effective way of keeping one awake as it stimulates nervous system that is already jammed. It would have extremely limited and short effect.

5. Current tiredness system is crap. Plain and simple. Pretty muh every aspect of it is weird.

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2 hours ago, Dirmagnos said:

1. What if you forget to wind it up ? Also it is possible to train oneself by following certain sleep regime, and even go to sleep and wake up at preset times without any external help.

the current system works like having such a alarm clock. but i guess they are not standard equipment of any bushplane, so i was trying to find an explanation to it. 

I guess not everyone is from day zero trained like that, at least i am not. especially i would never be able to plan exactly 2 hours rest after a wolf attacked me and i survived a blizzard close to death and i traveled several miles with 30kg luggage. I would sleep like a stone. Thats my point.

2 hours ago, Dirmagnos said:

2. Different people have different sleep needs, some can go on with just 4 hours, others need full 10. Also, exhaustion, sleep regiment and various conditions can affect it greatly. Didnt get whole part about coffee, as either interpretation i could come up with dosnt make much sense.

3. Coming on, i sleep best when its raining or storm outside. I generally dont have much problems with sleep, but during those events i sleep like a log.

Irl you wake up when you feel chilled, not cold. Freezing shares a lot of common traits with sleep, so there is a reason why people who are freezing also tend to become sleepy.

Noise goes into same category with storm and self-conditioning. When i was younger i had period when i couldnt go to sleep without radio playing. Took awhile to get rid of this habit.

If injury occurred prior to going to sleep, depending on nature of injury it may have no effect on sleep.

No, just no. Pls, no psychological thriller crap. Its absurd and completely unnecessary.

Erm, full moon ?!!?!!? Seriously ?

 

thats funny, you re contradicting yourself: different people have different needs, I am alwas awake when it storms, you not. I am suggesting to implement varities like those in the game. 

When implementing such a different sleeping system you need to plan your sleep really carefully. coffee might become a vital part of this planning. thats it.

wouldnt you feel chilled before feeling cold when you start sleeping with positive temperature, but then it drops while sleeping? my point is, that i wanna wake up from this, to change my position to a warmer place, start a fire, whatever.

the psychology part: i dunno what i have to do in storymode yet, lets think of i killed somebody to get his food, cause i was starving. i wouldnd sleep the next night well. would you?

full moon: i am not thinking of some crappy werewolf-stuff. but I for example sleep bad at full moon, cause its brighter than usual. I am not the only one with this and its not random. if you are not such a person, be happy, it makes stuff easier. I am trying to find influences, that i know, not evrything might be worth implementing, but sorting out what fits into the game is part of the developers work.

2 hours ago, Dirmagnos said:

4. For any of that to occur protagonist must be really tired, like going 3-days-without-sleep tired. Hel run out of health before that. "Will" has nothing to do with that, its mainly chemical issue, and unless person is trained to withstand tiredness, then he will just pass out and slide to sleep from there.

yep, but stuff like that happens in TLD, so thinking about it, isnt wrong, right?

 

2 hours ago, Dirmagnos said:

5. Current tiredness system is crap. Plain and simple. Pretty muh every aspect of it is weird.

nice, that we have at least one mutual point here - so besides criticising my ideas, what are yours?

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15 hours ago, Gleudal said:

I guess not everyone is from day zero trained like that, at least i am not. especially i would never be able to plan exactly 2 hours rest after a wolf attacked me and i survived a blizzard close to death and i traveled several miles with 30kg luggage. I would sleep like a stone. Thats my point.

True, but its not that hard either. People have been going about their lives for thousands of years without having alarm clocks, and survived. For example i have an extremely annoying tune on my phone for alarm clock, so my mind adjusted and i actually wake up 10-15 minutes earlier. Purely to avoid listening to it. So it is possible to use own internal clock for own benefit, question is merely in motivation.

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thats funny, you re contradicting yourself: different people have different needs, I am alwas awake when it storms, you not. I am suggesting to implement varities like those in the game. 

Not really, as you specifically stated that player should wake up, not may wake up, from several events. To what i pointed out that different people have different reactions to same stimuli.

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When implementing such a different sleeping system you need to plan your sleep really carefully. coffee might become a vital part of this planning. thats it.

Relying on an extremely limited resource, that will also have limited effect and can have several mild negative side-effects, is not really best way to plan your life. Its like making alcohol vital part of your sleep cycle.

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wouldnt you feel chilled before feeling cold when you start sleeping with positive temperature, but then it drops while sleeping? my point is, that i wanna wake up from this, to change my position to a warmer place, start a fire, whatever.

Not necessarily, depending on how gradual cooling is.

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the psychology part: i dunno what i have to do in storymode yet, lets think of i killed somebody to get his food, cause i was starving. i wouldnd sleep the next night well. would you?

Yes, you would. When person is under extreme duress, especially when it comes to basic needs, then his brain chemistry changes. Few people are altruistic enough to let themselves die, while someone else get to live. It goes against our own nature.

You would sleep like a baby, because youre not hungry anymore, even if for just one night. Questions of morality will become irrelevant at this point.

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full moon: i am not thinking of some crappy werewolf-stuff. but I for example sleep bad at full moon, cause its brighter than usual. I am not the only one with this and its not random. if you are not such a person, be happy, it makes stuff easier. I am trying to find influences, that i know, not evrything might be worth implementing, but sorting out what fits into the game is part of the developers work.

People with such issues are absolute minority. Plus there are always curtains.

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yep, but stuff like that happens in TLD, so thinking about it, isnt wrong, right?

Why would it happen ? Current stats system dont even allow player to go that far.

I could understand, if it was made more realistic(like for example player could go on and on and on without sleep, with various penalties mounting, till he hit complete exhaustion point, with severe penalties, visual glitches/hallucinations and progressive chance to pass out of the spot, regardless of where he is), then it would negative/positive conditions bonanza(eat well, and slowly gain fat, that act as both insulator and energy supplement on hungrier days, but if 2 much is accumulated, then it would start having negative effects, like faster tiredness loss and overheating), but in its current primitive state..meh.

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 Of all the superpowers that Will could have received from the geomagnetic anomaly - immunity to temperatures, super strength, an anodized skeleton, the ability to sleep without a bedroll -  he is gifted with an enlarged hypothalamus and advanced endocrine system, effectively turning him into Super Circadian Rhythm Man. With his hyper-awareness of time and total control over particular hormones, Will can will himself to sleep and wake at will.

 Cool! :ph34r:

 Or it's just a game mechanic. :(

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If i can go back to the first comment , i like everithing about getting wake up by anything and everything!! But falling asleep while being awake and up on my feet ... i dont buy it . Ive had weeks where ive had 4 hours of sleep for 6-7 days ( yes an in the infantry for the canadian forces ,r22r , recon training and basic training comes to mind ) so yes .. even when you think your battery is a 0 ... you still have minimum 40% left . 

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On 5/6/2017 at 8:33 PM, Boulay22 said:

If i can go back to the first comment , i like everithing about getting wake up by anything and everything!! But falling asleep while being awake and up on my feet ... i dont buy it . Ive had weeks where ive had 4 hours of sleep for 6-7 days ( yes an in the infantry for the canadian forces ,r22r , recon training and basic training comes to mind ) so yes .. even when you think your battery is a 0 ... you still have minimum 40% left . 

 The only thing to buy is into the game and all of the mechanics that comprise it! :)

 Really, it's not a reality sim in a strict sense, unlike your training!

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 6.5.2017 at 9:49 AM, Dirmagnos said:

True, but its not that hard either. People have been going about their lives for thousands of years without having alarm clocks, and survived. For example i have an extremely annoying tune on my phone for alarm clock, so my mind adjusted and i actually wake up 10-15 minutes earlier. Purely to avoid listening to it. So it is possible to use own internal clock for own benefit, question is merely in motivation.

you can set your inner alarm clock by standing up every day the same hour, might take a week or so. you cant say: body wake me up in 2hours. In TLD you dont stand up every time at the hour.

On 6.5.2017 at 9:49 AM, Dirmagnos said:

Not really, as you specifically stated that player should wake up, not may wake up, from several events. To what i pointed out that different people have different reactions to same stimuli.

well, i am no native englishspeaker, so i wasnt aware of this difference. "should" is phonetically in german much closer to what means "may" in english.

 

On 6.5.2017 at 9:49 AM, Dirmagnos said:

People with such issues are absolute minority. Plus there are always curtains.

just google it, its not uncommon. and there are a lot of indoor rooms without curtains.

 

On 6.5.2017 at 1:33 PM, Boulay22 said:

But falling asleep while being awake and up on my feet ... i dont buy it . Ive had weeks where ive had 4 hours of sleep for 6-7 days ( yes an in the infantry for the canadian forces ,r22r , recon training and basic training comes to mind ) so yes .. even when you think your battery is a 0 ... you still have minimum 40% left . 

ok, i trust you in this point, didnt made this experience.

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I find the sleep mechanism to be a pita as well. I just don't like the fact that I cannot sleep when I am left at 5-10% health after a bear attack because I am fully rested. I am pretty sure our hero doesn't feel like jogging and would much rather go to bed. This is part of the game challenge though.

You used to be able to sleep until healed. I am not sure which way I prefer it.

 

On ‎5‎/‎6‎/‎2017 at 7:33 AM, Boulay22 said:

If i can go back to the first comment , i like everithing about getting wake up by anything and everything!! But falling asleep while being awake and up on my feet ... i dont buy it . Ive had weeks where ive had 4 hours of sleep for 6-7 days ( yes an in the infantry for the canadian forces ,r22r , recon training and basic training comes to mind ) so yes .. even when you think your battery is a 0 ... you still have minimum 40% left . 

 

I have never seen anyone fall asleep standing up ether but I know of one guy for sure who fell asleep in the latrine. He didn't wake up till we had it fully on its side.

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