Travois aka pulling your own weight

[piddy3825]

Considering all the loot and goodies a player can accumulate, it's hard for me to leave stuff behind when I move camp to a new location or map but weight matters when you travel especially carrying a heavy backpack.

Enter the Travois:

The basic construction consists of a platform or netting mounted on two long poles, lashed in the triangular shape which was dragged by the pointed end.  Sometimes the base or blunt end of the frame was stabilized by a third pole bound across the two poles. The travois was traditionally dragged by hand, sometimes fitted with a shoulder harness for more efficient dragging.  A travois could either be loaded by piling goods atop the bare frame and tying them in place, or by first stretching cloth or leather over the frame to hold the load to be dragged. Although considerably primitive, on the type of territory where the travois was used (forest floors, soft soil, snow, etc.), it is possible for a person to transport more weight on a travois than can be carried on the back.

So, two poles lashed together with a leather or cloth harness that you can load your stuff up on and drag it all to another location?  Sold!  I think that would be a neat craftable item.  Two fir limbs, one branch, two deer hides 4 pieces of cloth and 8 pieces of gut to fabricate.  now capable of dragging additional 25 kilos of stuff.  

Yeah, i know, hard to drag thru a cave or across the trestle, so you would have to abandon it when you change maps. It would still be there when you cross back, maybe a little more worn from exposure, but that seems reasonable to expect.  I would expect to build one or more in each map area.  

Thanks for reading!

[Carbon]

 Agreed.

 It really does seem like something that one would naturally and almost immediately construct in such a scenario as TLD presents.

 When supplies exist in two modes, one of short-term (need or existence) and the other of long-term, one is thus both asked to lose and yet also retain elements of continuance. For example, food forces one to move yet the need to retain curing hides, firewood, jerry cans of fuel and the like are items of continuance, then it becomes something that is not only necessary but of practicality. What one needs short and long term co-exist and one cannot continue without the other, then an agent that allows this is one that isn't even a consideration, but a reflex.

 I too have left areas carrying that which I found to be most important - and indeed it was, as evidenced by my having survived - only to revisit the previously abandoned location to discover that what I had left behind would have spared me much discomfort in replenishing upon arriving in a new location. Thus, what I left behind was as important as what I had taken, but on a different timeline.

 Although it is nice to return to an old haunt and find a stash of important items remaining, I would much rather have been able to either take them to my final destination or, as you say, to the edge of a given area where a far more convenient personal cache could be established.

 As it currently stands, it furthermore makes a good argument for establishing bases in particular areas with many connecting points to other areas and strategically chosen spots therein. This is one reason I chose PV as my late-game final base; it is one of the most 'connected' areas and has locations that are somewhat equidistant from said connectors. The Farmstead is ideal in this way; getting to ML, CH and TWM all involve journeys of similar distances and all of these locations are rich sources of supplies.

[Frozen guy]

Totally agreed with this thread ! +1
Moreover this travois would fit completely with the idea of "new-Neolithic" era in the game (with fur clothes, makeshift bow....)

[Erkkipappers]

I think we need skiis too.

[EricTheGreat12]

On 4/21/2017 at 11:25 PM, piddy3825 said:

So, two poles lashed together with a leather or cloth harness that you can load your stuff up on and drag it all to another location?  Sold!  I think that would be a neat craftable item.  Two fir limbs, one branch, two deer hides 4 pieces of cloth and 8 pieces of gut to fabricate.  now capable of dragging additional 25 kilos of stuff.  

So how would this translate to the weight that the player is carrying? If the player let's say is carrying a total of 20 kilgs. on this travois, it would surely mean that he's carrying part of this weight. Would we divide it in half?

[piddy3825]

13 hours ago, EricTheGreat12 said:

So how would this translate to the weight that the player is carrying? If the player let's say is carrying a total of 20 kilgs. on this travois, it would surely mean that he's carrying part of this weight. Would we divide it in half?

Actually, the amount of weight being lifted is proportional to the length of the poles, I really dumbed down the weight in my post because IRL the lift potential is staggering but for the sake of gameplay i wanted to keep it much simpler.   This illustration I found in an old hunting forum may shed some additional light to better answer your question.

The table below shows the force in pounds  needed to lift 180 pounds of weight with different length travois poles.  For all pole lengths, calculations assume the load is 180 lbs and the center of gravity is 30 inches from drag point. 

Effort Required to Lift 180 Pound Load with Varying Pole Lengths

Pole Length	Effort to Lift
(Feet)	(lbs)
8	57
9	50
10	45
11	41
12	38
13	35
14	33

So if you are looking at these numbers, for example.  with 8 foot poles, lifting 180 pounds feels like lifting 57 pounds, but if you cut the poles to 14 feet long, then the same 180 pound load only feels like 33 pounds.
For you physics professors, technically, once you raise the end of the pole to waist height, the horizontal vector and length have become shorter, so the effort to raise the load is slightly higher. Also, the calculations show the longer the pole, the lighter the load, but that does not take into consideration the weight of the poles themselves. Depending upon center of mass and length, 20 lb poles would increase the weight to be lifted by 3 – 5 lbs each.  

[piddy3825]

14 hours ago, Erkkipappers said:

I think we need skiis too.

For sure, considering that you find Ski boots in the game... It would make sense that there might be some downhill ski's and maybe even some cross country ski's.  I often walk down a steep mountainside by traversing the fall line much like I would do if I was skiing a back country double diamond run, lol.  I would love to be able to just ski down from the summit all the way to Crystal Lake!

[Mugger]

5 hours ago, piddy3825 said:

Actually, the amount of weight being lifted is proportional to the length of the poles, I really dumbed down the weight in my post because IRL the lift potential is staggering but for the sake of gameplay i wanted to keep it much simpler.   This illustration I found in an old hunting forum may shed some additional light to better answer your question.

The table below shows the force in pounds  needed to lift 180 pounds of weight with different length travois poles.  For all pole lengths, calculations assume the load is 180 lbs and the center of gravity is 30 inches from drag point. 

Effort Required to Lift 180 Pound Load with Varying Pole Lengths

Pole Length	Effort to Lift
(Feet)	(lbs)
8	57
9	50
10	45
11	41
12	38
13	35
14	33

So if you are looking at these numbers, for example.  with 8 foot poles, lifting 180 pounds feels like lifting 57 pounds, but if you cut the poles to 14 feet long, then the same 180 pound load only feels like 33 pounds.
For you physics professors, technically, once you raise the end of the pole to waist height, the horizontal vector and length have become shorter, so the effort to raise the load is slightly higher. Also, the calculations show the longer the pole, the lighter the load, but that does not take into consideration the weight of the poles themselves. Depending upon center of mass and length, 20 lb poles would increase the weight to be lifted by 3 – 5 lbs each.  

I like the idea and the figures makes it a good point for including into the game,

But what about actually moving the Travois,

What kind of energy would it take to drag it about - after all it would only have pole ends digging into the snow/ice/dirt/roads?

I suppose it could be possible to attach blades of some kind (made from scrap metal)

[Crocket]

Perhaps the Travois could be the base model, or all seasons model, but personally I think I'd endeavour to build a Qamutiik if I had a few hundred days to kill in the northern Canadian winter wilderness!

[EricTheGreat12]

8 hours ago, piddy3825 said:

Actually, the amount of weight being lifted is proportional to the length of the poles, I really dumbed down the weight in my post because IRL the lift potential is staggering but for the sake of gameplay i wanted to keep it much simpler.   This illustration I found in an old hunting forum may shed some additional light to better answer your question.

The table below shows the force in pounds  needed to lift 180 pounds of weight with different length travois poles.  For all pole lengths, calculations assume the load is 180 lbs and the center of gravity is 30 inches from drag point. 

Effort Required to Lift 180 Pound Load with Varying Pole Lengths

Pole Length	Effort to Lift
(Feet)	(lbs)
8	57
9	50
10	45
11	41
12	38
13	35
14	33

So if you are looking at these numbers, for example.  with 8 foot poles, lifting 180 pounds feels like lifting 57 pounds, but if you cut the poles to 14 feet long, then the same 180 pound load only feels like 33 pounds.
For you physics professors, technically, once you raise the end of the pole to waist height, the horizontal vector and length have become shorter, so the effort to raise the load is slightly higher. Also, the calculations show the longer the pole, the lighter the load, but that does not take into consideration the weight of the poles themselves. Depending upon center of mass and length, 20 lb poles would increase the weight to be lifted by 3 – 5 lbs each.  

Interesting. If I would have passed high school science and math I would probably know what you know 

 

It wouldn't make sense though if the game made you cut a certain length of wood; how would you measure without this game becoming Cabinet Making version 2017 ?

[piddy3825]

16 hours ago, EricTheGreat12 said:

Interesting. If I would have passed high school science and math I would probably know what you know 

 

It wouldn't make sense though if the game made you cut a certain length of wood; how would you measure without this game becoming Cabinet Making version 2017 ?

yeah, it took me 3x to get a C in algebra 101, lol.   But, for the purposes of game play, I would presume that if the idea were to be adopted that the Dev's would just give us a standard length, for the sake of simplicity.  I'm okay with that.  this shouldn't be rocket science, right?  

[piddy3825]

19 hours ago, Crocket said:

Perhaps the Travois could be the base model, or all seasons model, but personally I think I'd endeavour to build a Qamutiik if I had a few hundred days to kill in the northern Canadian winter wilderness!

I had to look up Qamutiik, yes indeed, very good suggestion.  would for sure take a long time to craft, as compared to a crude travois that could be lashed together in 15 minutes. 

[nicko]

Both ideas sound good. Maybe the Qamutiik be a long term crafting option? and the Travois short term?

either way I think it might be a great idea for the TLD to add long term / mid /  short term crafting options. How? whos knows their the pro's

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Travois

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qamutiik

[Carbon]

 Skis are not a good idea; they will drastically alter many aspects of the game but most significantly map design. The current maps are not suited for skis and any future maps that would be made to accommodate them would be far too different from the existing maps, making them essentially incompatible within the game. One works on foot, the other on skis; sounds like a recipe for frustration and imbalance.