Basic Bed

[Ice Hole]

I play interloper for the challenge but one challenge that does not seem right is there is no way to sleep in a house with no bed except if you posses a bedroll.. 

There are many suggestions concerning bedrolls and it seems that a basic bed should be crafted from simple materials. 

The snow shelter can provide a place to sleep for five cloth and fifteen sticks but only outside. 

My suggestion is allow a snow shelter to be crafted indoors and call it a basic bed.  Not portable just as the shelter.

[Jolan]

I would love to be able to craft a makeshift bedroll out of bedding from houses.  Make it less warm and/or heavier than the down bedroll.  Maybe less durable?  As an example there's 3 sets of bedding in the Pleasant Valley farmhouse.  

After all, other than the zipper there's not much difference between my non-down sleeping bag and a full sized comforter.  Actually I've jury rigged a perfectly fine sleeping bag out of a set of sheets, blanket and comforter.  

[Sharky]

I think it would be nice if we could craft a basic sleeping quilt out of cloth and cat-tail stalks. 

[DragonXIII]

I mean, I agree with the premise of this suggestion, which seems to be a way to sleep indoors if you don't have a bedroll or bed, but I can't say I agree that building a bed the same way you build a snow shelter would be the way to go. For one thing, there's a big difference between a snow shelter and a bed, and that's tools. You can easily build a snow shelter in real life with your bare hands and nothing else, it just takes time. A snow cave, for instance, is exactly what it sounds like, a cave dug out of snow. Granted, they take longer to build properly than the 45 in-game minutes it takes to build the snow shelter, but you can do it and it isn't even that complicated. A bed, on the other hand, would require at least a hammer and nails, in addition to your sticks and cloth (if indeed sticks and cloth make a sturdy bed).

@Jolan's idea of a makeshift bedroll would be great, or even just allowing us to sleep at any time through the camp craft menu. Whether you should or not is a whole other question, and of course, sleeping without a bedroll should come with its own penalties. I believe I mentioned this in another thread, but this is a similar topic. Sleeping on the floor could result in slower fatigue recovery (less per hour slept), being able to sleep only a maximum of 6-8 hours instead of 12, or even just capping the maximum amount of fatigue you can recover without a bedroll or bed (like, the bar will only ever fill to 75%, to reflect your discomfort).

[Ice Hole]

14 hours ago, DragonXIII said:

A bed, on the other hand, would require at least a hammer and nails

Cloth can be turned into strips for lashing.

 

When considering this idea of a makeshift bed I initially began with the premise of a bedroll crafted from cloth instead of animal skin.  The idea percolated for a while until I recently found out that sleeping in a snow shelter was a possibility.  I never ever use the snow shelter but just recently read the wiki and began experimenting.  Still cannot see a proper use for them.  There are areas that have outdoor caves similar to the Cave in TWM could benefit but have not tried it.

A makeshift bed that uses the same mechanics of snow shelter would seem a quick approach to solve this issue.  A model of the bed would be needed and code for placement of the bed indoors.  Time, materials, and warmth bonus all apply.  The decay rate is also there along with item deconstruction.

Another benefit of the makeshift bed would allow reading, mending and eating in bed.  Makeshift beds placed inside caves is another area that could be utilized and results in a cabin fever solution.  The mechanics for the snow shelter allow characters to be inside and still make fires.  With code that already exist and applied to the makeshift bed results is a relatively easy win win.

The easy way would be as you already suggested to enable the sleep icon anywhere and just restrict the applied bonus. Any method for sleeping indoors and in caves without a bedroll would be acceptable to what already is available in the game.

 

[Ice Hole]

Bump
The Wintermute update has us using a bed that looks like a pile of leaves. This is something akin to the threads initial idea.

We need to sleep and having a temporary makeshift bed is what we yearn.

An idea is to restrict the number of hours that can be slept in such a cruddy bed.

[odizzido]

I don't have a bedroll in the game I am currently playing which means my character can't sleep if I am going on a long journey unless I am lucky and find a bed.....if we could just sleep anywhere that would be lovely.

[nicko]

7 hours ago, Farrgin Ice Hole said:

Bump
The Wintermute update has us using a bed that looks like a pile of leaves. This is something akin to the threads initial idea.

We need to sleep and having a temporary makeshift bed is what we yearn.

An idea is to restrict the number of hours that can be slept in such a cruddy bed.

I think the idea here is that there is no where else to sleep maybe in story mode. unless you found a magic bed roll?

[nicko]

2 hours ago, odizzido said:

I don't have a bedroll in the game I am currently playing which means my character can't sleep if I am going on a long journey unless I am lucky and find a bed.....if we could just sleep anywhere that would be lovely.

Well in survivor mode, this is what it makes it more exciting.  You need to plan your long journeys.

[Ice Hole]

4 hours ago, nicko said:

You need to plan your long journeys.

When playing survivor why is it acceptable to sleep in a snow shelter outside made from rags and sticks and not on the floor of a cave with some pine boughs as pictured above?

[Hotzn]

From a realism perspective, it would make sense to be able to sleep anywhere - possibly at the risk of dying from hypothermia or at the cost of less recovering from injury/fatigue (depending where you decide to do it). But beware - being able to sleep anywhere would seriously alter the game balance on every map. Especially with higher difficulty settings, you need to plan your trips carefully, and part of this planning is the question where to sleep. Being able to sleep anywhere will make things a lot easier, even if sleeping in unpleasant places comes at a cost. Looking back at the development of TLD, adding new options for the player has always resulted in a loss of difficulty/challenge. That is the reason why Interloper had to be introduced at all. Adding new options always needs a counterbalance, or in other words: If we are given the possibility to sleep anywhere, other aspects of the game need to be made more difficult.

It's the same with eating snow - something which realistically one should be able to do. If the ability to eat snow was introduced - which is debatable - it would make the game easier, even if eating snow would come at a cost (eg risk of hypothermia and/or bacterial infections). Because now you can't make water without fire, and the necessity of fire would be circumvented if we could just eat snow. So the game would offer more options to solve a problem, and more options usually make everything easier.

[CaveDweller]

7 hours ago, Hotzn said:

being able to sleep anywhere would seriously alter the game balance on every map. Especially with higher difficulty settings, you need to plan your trips carefully, and part of this planning is the question where to sleep

Exactly. The bed outdoors idea has been broached many times. There are several things that are never really addressed, and I'm not certian they can be, these being game balance:
- as noted above by Hotzn, especially with reference to planning journeys (critical to Loper's challenge)
- with regard to short-term vs long-term games (re. 'I play for the initial vertical progression challenge' vs 'I want to live forever in a survival sim')
- in relation to other mechanics already in place e.g., cabin fever.

20 hours ago, Farrgin Ice Hole said:

The Wintermute update has us using a bed that looks like a pile of leaves.

Actually, this was in place before Wintermute. The same bed style could (and can) be found in the cave at the bottom of the Ravine.

On 17/03/2017 at 9:52 AM, Farrgin Ice Hole said:

I never ever use the snow shelter

Snow shelters come into their own in Loper when you have no bedroll AND cabin fever. This for me is a fairly regular occurrence, especially when doing speed-runs.

The other thing to consider is that TLD breaks the mould when it comes to open-world design games. Typically these games fall into one of two categories - 'open world' (an open map with graphically - but not mechanically - different regions/micro climates) and 'module-based' (discrete zones with unique content, quests, scaled levels of monsters etc. - resulting in different mechanics). TLD combines both of these modes - with an open map that is also divided into 'modules' (regions) that are discretely released and explorable. Here's the crux of the matter, each region has it's own distinct feel, behaviour and strategies for survival. Key to this is limiting the options (tools) that players have - which forces horizontal progression (using rules and tools in unique an individual ways).

The beauty is that each game mode provides a unique lens on these same sets of rules and tools, creating unique challenges. Adding any element/tool, no matter how small, dramatically changes how all of these elements interact. So, the fight over time for many long-term players has been to keep the tools and rules simple - as it is this which gives the game is beautiful mechanics.

Doesn't mean we can all have ideas (indeed I believe the ability to discuss ideas is critical to community building) but we should realistically expect many - if any - of the ideas to be implemented any time soon. The one thing I've not touched on above, as I've ranted  about it in other posts is the environment and weather as NPCs, and how the ecosystem they create in in region also requires careful balancing...but it is related!

[Ice Hole]

3 hours ago, CaveDweller said:

Actually, this was in place before Wintermute. The same bed style could (and can) be found in the cave at the bottom of the Ravine.

That is something I did not know.

I agree with most of what your saying about game balance.  The only point is that when you are exhausted, pretty much anywhere is a a bed.  The game reflects this.  The beginning sequence has Will collapse from exhaustion after lighting a fire.  He awakes but his health and injuries are not rejuvenated.  The game always needs balance and I totally agree.

[CaveDweller]

5 hours ago, Farrgin Ice Hole said:

The only point is that when you are exhausted, pretty much anywhere is a a bed

I completely agree, but as has been counter argued here before, even with zero cooking skill most people could slice a piece of meat thin and cook it to leather - thus eliminating the chance of intestinal parasites. More to the point, most of the caves and shelters that give us immense warmth bonuses in the game would in real life be almost as cold as outside.

So, the designers pick and choose when to reflect life, when to imitate it and when to mechanise it (e.g. weather, sleep). Sleep (and tiredness) is a powerful mechanic in all modes of play - transcending difficulty levels. It's even more powerful than warmth in all modes except Loper - something that I think most people don't really consider.

It's not that I at all disagree with you, I just can't see how they could possibly touch the sleep mechanic without having to rebalance every mode!

[Pillock]

On 5/5/2018 at 4:08 AM, CaveDweller said:

It's even more powerful than warmth in all modes except Loper - something that I think most people don't really consider.

What do you mean by this? How is tiredness more powerful than warmth?

(I'm obviously one of the 'most' people!)

[CaveDweller]

@Pillock I am prone to hyperbole, always call me on it

But to answer your question - As you know warmth and tiredness are both resources. Their relative importance in part depends on the mode being played. For example, in Interloper warmth is insidiously difficult to control until you have reached stability. Even then it can be hard to control. In other modes though warmth is fairly quickly relegated to an inconvenience that is only sometimes considered. This is a reflection of the ease with with you can gear-up. Importantly:
- there are a variety of means by which you can obtain/control warmth
- often productive work can be done whilst warming
- due to the number of ways you can warm yourself the need is systematic, predictable and episodic/short-term.

As such its influence on the way in which we play, its direct impact on our behaviour as players, in all modes except Interloper is diminished. It instead becomes part of the pattern of daily life.

Tiredness however guides our actions in more subtle ways, limiting our choices and defining our daily actions at a far deeper level than warmth. Moreover the penalties associated with being tired are more extreme. For example, let's say I need to make it from Camp Office to Carter Hydro - do I run? Do I walk and freeze? Usually I'll walk and freeze as I can take freezing damage but can't fight a wolf off if tired. The threat of death from tiredness outweighs short-term loss of condition from freezing. Taking a more extreme example, let's say we're running the gauntlet. Planning your rest stops ahead of time is the only way you'll make it. Sometimes these will coincide with getting warm - but not always and not as an imperative.

Importantly:
- if you oversleep - or sleep at the wrong times you can quite quickly get so far out of rhythm that it is life threatening
- there are only a few ways of restoring tiredness (stim, coffee, sleep), of these the first two are limited and non-renewable and the third...well see the first point above
- as players we often react to cold/warmth but plan-ahead for tiredness and organise our days around it.

Now of course there are always exceptions to these observations. Take Geltaz for example - he often plans warmth ahead of time and carefully manages it as a resource. He's so familiar with the maps, distances and routing that he relegates tiredness to a functional mechanic. I don't honestly know how many of us could claim that!

[Pillock]

5 hours ago, CaveDweller said:

Importantly:
- there are a variety of means by which you can obtain/control warmth
- often productive work can be done whilst warming
- due to the number of ways you can warm yourself the need is systematic, predictable and episodic/short-term.

As such its influence on the way in which we play, its direct impact on our behaviour as players, in all modes except Interloper is diminished. It instead becomes part of the pattern of daily life.

Tiredness however guides our actions in more subtle ways, limiting our choices and defining our daily actions at a far deeper level than warmth. Moreover the penalties associated with being tired are more extreme. For example, let's say I need to make it from Camp Office to Carter Hydro - do I run? Do I walk and freeze? Usually I'll walk and freeze as I can take freezing damage but can't fight a wolf off if tired. The threat of death from tiredness outweighs short-term loss of condition from freezing. Taking a more extreme example, let's say we're running the gauntlet. Planning your rest stops ahead of time is the only way you'll make it. Sometimes these will coincide with getting warm - but not always and not as an imperative.

 

I don't think I really play like that.

For me (on Stalker or Stalker-esque Custom modes), I sleep in the night, and I go out during the day . I tend to be tired in the evening, which might mean I can't do certain activities then, but I don't I think I often regard tiredness as any particular threat to my character's life. I agree that managing tiredness is more of a factor in a day's planning, especially if there's rope-climbing involved - but I see that as more of an inconvenience than a threat to life. I'm perfectly happy to adjust or abandon a plan if conditions or circumstances don't agree with it, or if I've miscalculated something, or if I get side-tracked by something. (You don't have to go around climbing lots of ropes and travelling long distances in a short time.)

I don't take freezing damage as a matter of course, ever. I don't take any condition loss as a matter of course. Freezing causes much more rapid condition loss than exhaustion does, plus there's hypothermia and frostbite related to it. To me it seems that I'm much less likely to survive a wolf attack (or some other unexpected mishap) if my condition is already depleted than if I'm just a bit tired. I generally do everything I can not to go near wolves as a general rule, anyway.

I agree that in Stalker it doesn't take very long to find good enough clothes that freezing is not a huge problem on a normal day. But if I get caught out by the weather, my first concern is getting warm, not sleeping. I don't carry a bedroll with me ever, unless I'm rope-climbing a lot. If I'm travelling a long distance from a bed, I'd rather keep walking through exhaustion to get to somewhere warm, or hunker down in any place I can keep a fire going during a storm, even if I can't sleep there, because exhaustion doesn't cost much condition-loss, whereas freezing does. I carry coffee or tea as a temporary warmth-giver, not as an aid to tiredness, pain or infection (although they might be useful for those as a bonus).

In general, I take the view that if you keep yourself warm, you're not going to die - it's quite rare I die from anything other than the effects of freezing (have you ever died of exhaustion?). Keeping yourself rested, fed and watered is, I think, relatively less difficult than keeping yourself warm; and I'm pretty sure it's relatively less dangerous if you temporarily neglect rest, food or water than if you neglect warmth?

I'd say managing rest and tiredness is more powerful as a factor in determining the choices you make for day-to-day planning when you're in a good state of being - ie. doing what you want, when you want. But I'd say warmth is much more of an factor in emergencies, or when things are going wrong, which I think means it's more powerful in terms of the absolute survival of your character and your run.

[private duksworth]

this would be a good idea to have a basic bed as It would be easy to implement

[CaveDweller]

14 hours ago, Pillock said:

I don't think I really play like that.

 

I hear ya  everyone has their own style.

14 hours ago, Pillock said:

I'd say managing rest and tiredness is more powerful as a factor in determining the choices you make for day-to-day planning when you're in a good state of being - ie. doing what you want, when you want. But I'd say warmth is much more of an factor in emergencies, or when things are going wrong, which I think means it's more powerful in terms of the absolute survival of your character and your run.

I think we are actually making the same point! To put it another way, utilising tiredness is a strategic decision, where as cold is often a reactive decision.

I guess then that the issue lies in our interpretation of 'deeper'. For me strategic = more powerful. Cold may indeed be more powerful in an immediate sense, or typically at the start of a run when still gearing-up. I guess the 'answer' here also partially depends on when we stop measuring a run - is it 40 days or 500 days?

15 hours ago, Pillock said:

have you ever died of exhaustion?

Yes, many times. I tend to speed-run the start of my games regardless of mode. This means that I run a lot and leave nothing in the tank for wolf attacks or emergency-outs should the weather change. The hard part is if I get caught in a blizzard and can barely walk due to exhaustion - is it the cold or the tiredness that kills me? Sure I die from freezing, but that only happened as I couldn't get to safety in time due to exhaustion. A bit chicken and egg eh?

15 hours ago, Pillock said:

I don't take freezing damage as a matter of course, ever.

 I do, all the time. Condition to me is just another resource to be spent when you need it. I'd rather take 40% condition damage and harvest out that deer before it freezes solid than leave it a day or two...or do it in chunks. Sure I'll need to spend a couple of days recovering (in Loper, one good sleep in other modes). Granted, this would be in an already stable run...or one that was going well. The idea still stands though.

This turned out to be an interesting discussion!

[Wormer]

Sleep anywhere. No warmth bonus, no condition recovery, maximum fatigue regeneration 30%, don't let a sleep until fatigue is less than 10%.

Interloper games are affected the most. Sure planning ahead places to have a rest is a big part of the game. But on interloper finding a place to rest is only a part of the problem. Rest without a health recovery looses most of it's benefits. I think that -30%-40% condition loss due to freezing on interloper is a norm, and often you lose more condition. Not being able to recover that part during the rest calls for problems. One day is probably affordable, the second such a "rest" and you dead.

I agree with CaveDweller that fatigue is of the more importance than your warmth. There main problem with low fatigue is the movement restriction. The first consequence is being unable to run from wolves. This can already be very difficult when overburden, not even saying when you're totally exhausted and can't run at all. Wolf attack on interloper is very severe, it is something that you want to completely avoid. Then when you're exhausted you usually won't go far away until the wolf returns to finish you off. The second consequence is like also mentioned by CaveDweller cold kills you fast because you can't get somewhere in reasonable time.

[Ice Hole]

On 5/8/2018 at 3:57 AM, CaveDweller said:

This turned out to be an interesting discussion!

I sure am enjoying reading it. 

I have another notion.  Maybe a bed is not really needed.  After all it is the resource of stamina that is really the point.  

Having died while in a nice warm cave with a fire and loads of woof, food and water and then watching my health tick down because I was tired is very frustrating.  If I could have snoozed through the storm I might have survived.

Snooze to Regain Stamina

Snooze anywhere to regain stamina only. 

Could that be a solution that does not unbalance gameplay? I certainly enjoy The Long Dark as a difficult survivor game.  it is one of the reasons that drew me to this title.  Maybe limit the length of snooze to a few hours only and available only when exhausted.

 

[Wormer]

Exactly! Better call it a snooze, that's the right name for this thing! But maybe you mean snooze to regain fatigue, not stamina? right? because stamina (running-meter) is useless when exhausted.

21 minutes ago, Farrgin Ice Hole said:

Maybe limit the length of snooze to a few hours only and available only when exhausted.

Either this or cap the maximum fatigue that you gain: 30% is more than enough, maybe less. Snooze is available only when exhausted or only when you have less than certain % of fatigue.

[Ice Hole]

28 minutes ago, Wormer said:

But maybe you mean snooze to regain fatigue, not stamina? right?

Good catch.  Snooze and be less fatigued. 

The gain could be 2% per hour maximum is 6% which allows the character a small chance to survive.

Snooze could have a chance of reduced mobility caused by cramps/muscle stiffness through improper sleep. 

Air temperature should be a factor and more the surface that the player is on. 

Insulation from a cold floor should  improve the player's odds.

This could also translate to other beds in the game and give reason for a player to choose the warm comfy bed over an icy bedroll.

 

[Pillock]

10 hours ago, Wormer said:

Sleep anywhere. No warmth bonus, no condition recovery, maximum fatigue regeneration 30%, don't let a sleep until fatigue is less than 10%.

 

8 hours ago, Farrgin Ice Hole said:

Snooze and be less fatigued. 

I really like this idea. I'd agree that you shouldn't be able to snooze unless you're very tired (10% rest sounds fine), and that regain should be capped around 30%. Plus I think it should be slower than 'proper' sleep and I wouldn't have any condition regain at all - or certainly no higher than normal waking condition regain (I normally have that switched off anyway). And, I think there should be a warmth penalty - if you're sleeping on the ground, you're going to be colder than if you're standing up and awake, given that you don't have any blankets or bedclothes.

Whether it's the ability to build improvised beds or just to allow you to sleep wherever you want, I do feel that something ought to be done in this regard. If only for this reason: it just feels absurd to be forced to build a snow-shelter and sleep in a hole in the snow covered with sticks and cloth, when you're standing right outside a bed-less hut or a cave. The fact that you can sleep anywhere you want if you're outdoors, but you can't do the same if you're indoors, forces you into taking an action that feels completely unintuitive and bizarre.

[cekivi]

23 hours ago, Pillock said:

The fact that you can sleep anywhere you want if you're outdoors, but you can't do the same if you're indoors, forces you into taking an action that feels completely unintuitive and bizarre.

All too true. I always dislike features that seem unnatural or unintuitive. For instance: there's a comfy chair in a house. Why do I have to go outside to sleep instead of crashing on the chair?