Misuke

Two-handed hatchet

22 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

How about this?Two-handed hatchet will be like normal hatchet but it will be more rare and will harvest faster than normal hatchet!

But for this our character will be getting more tired with using this,so sometimes better will be using normal hatchet than Two-handed.

My idea to look of  two-handed hatchet will be just longer that normal,and instead of grey head of hatchet will be red.

How about idea?Write in comments what are you thinking about it.;)

Edited by Misuke
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I have often thought that having a larger axe would be beneficial. I don't think a "two-handed hatchet" is the idea I would go for, but rather a proper "felling" or "splitting" axe. Some points for gameplay integration:

  • Faster than a hatchet (less time to harvest similar wood sources)
  • Harvest larger wood sources (fallen trees, etc... which with a hatchet would be nearly impossible)
  • Cannot harvest smallest sources (breaking branches into sticks would be a waste)
  • Cannot harvest carcasses
  • Requires more energy to use (fatigue rises faster, more calories used)
  • Heavier than a hatchet (obviously...)

Something like this would open up new avenues for harvesting firewood sources with greater efficiency, but at the cost of some functionality. Making it harder, or even impossible, to repair would also help balance the benefit of having it.

3091_american-made-felling-axe.jpg

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I will define that a two handed hatchet is the equivalent of the bastard sword. Can be used with one or two hand but meant to be used with two handed

I suggest for your two handed hatchet to

 -Slightly heavier (2 kg)

 -Don't spawn (Any proper woodchoper wouldn't use such a  mimetic tool on a daily basis) 

 -They have to be crafted with simple tools, a hatchet head and 2 fir firewood in 2 hours

 -Can switch to a hatchet with simple tools and 1 fir firewood in 1.5 hours

 -Bigger penalties for fine jobs (Carcass harvesting and crafting)

 -Can't be used in a wolf struggle

 -Less time needed for firewood foraging and piercing ice

 -Use less energy than a hatchet over all (Two arms and a longer handle)

 

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Hatchets are, in all reality, pretty shit at doing much in the way of meaningful work. Full-sized, or even 3/4 sized, axes are infinitely better in almost every single way.

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Posted (edited)

19 hours ago, Boston123 said:

Hatchets are, in all reality, pretty shit at doing much in the way of meaningful work. Full-sized, or even 3/4 sized, axes are infinitely better in almost every single way.

Apart from slinging in your pack and trekking for miles in the snow. Larger axes tend to be specialised (splitting or felling - you do get general purpose axes but you sacrifice performance compared to a specialised axe). The hatchet sacrifices even more performance for much better portability. Yes, you're likely expend a little more energy in using a smaller axe compared to a bigger one, but you spend a lot less energy in carrying it around.

I always have a small hatchet in my hiking pack, but I'd _never_ consider a taking a larger one on a camping or hiking trip.

My little hatchet is devilishly sharp - I can shave hair off my arm with it after sharpening. I've taken a tree down with it (about 10" trunk) and it's sharp enough to make feather-sticks or deflesh a hide. While it isn't great for big meaty work (and it's terrible at splitting; too sharp) it's a tremendously versatile tool and, at 568g, it weighs exactly as much as a (UK) pint of water. I love my little axe.

While I think the addition of a larger axe in the game would add realism (there are log stoves everywhere, but not a splitting axe or log pile to be found) I don't think making firewood easier to get would make the game better. It isn't hard to come by and doesn't take long to gather in useful quantities.

 

Edited by Dug
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I think an axe should be added simply because 

A. It would be nice to have a melee weapon to use against wolves and bears

B. The logo for the game has one in 

Perhaps in the story you go on this long quest only to find an axe at the end to use to do something super amazingly cool in an awesomely insane firefighter style possibly at your beloved house base that you spend ages stashing supplies in only for you to have to break down the door and rescue your resources in order to make it through the long dark that is the night time backdrop for this event that will look so awesome as a movie kind of like the shots of floating sparks from The Revenant followed by a humbling song with subtle character breathing followed by a gentle piano piece accompanying the long dark credits for this really cool and awesome game that we are all waiting for.

Try to read that in one breath

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, Dug said:

I always have a small hatchet in my hiking pack, but I'd _never_ consider a taking a larger one on a camping or hiking trip.

I too would always bring a small hatchet on a camping/hiking trip, but would never even consider a felling or splitting axe as part of my gear. For most uses in camping and hiking, a hatchet is all you're ever going to need, and bringing anything larger would just be overburdening yourself without a noticeable benefit. But this can't be considered as a true camping/hiking scenario. We're not here for fun, we have to survive. My rationale behind adding a felling or splitting axes to game is not necessarily about making gathering firewood easier (it's easy enough already imo), but rather to offer an alternative method with a slightly different balance (eg., time spent vs energy used vs resources gathered). As we've said, bigger is not always better, and just because you have access to the larger axe does not mean you always should/would use it. I don't know, maybe it's one of those ideas that sounds good in my head, but doesn't pass muster in reality lol.

28 minutes ago, henroe32 said:

I think an axe should be added simply because 

A. It would be nice to have a melee weapon to use against wolves and bears

I mean, that would require an actual melee combat system in the game, outside of struggles. In order to effectively use a larger axe for melee, you need both hands on it. This would mean actually being able to hold it in-game (like we do the rifle and bow), and use it as a weapon in some kind of melee FPS fashion. That isn't in the game, and I expect that it would be very difficult to implement after the fact. As it is, we have wolf/bear struggles, where our character automatically uses the best weapon available to him/her (against wolves, nothing you can do against the bear). When the wolf is on you, you essentially only have one hand free to use a weapon, while the other one is desperately trying to hold the wolf back from biting out your tender throat. With only one hand free, a larger axe would be effectively useless as a melee weapon because you would have no room or strength to swing it and build momentum, which is where a large axe gets most of its power. At such close range, and in such circumstances, the knife or hatchet are much more effective weapons.

Edited by DragonXIII
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7 hours ago, Dug said:

Apart from slinging in your pack and trekking for miles in the snow. Larger axes tend to be specialised (splitting or felling - you do get general purpose axes but you sacrifice performance compared to a specialised axe). The hatchet sacrifices even more performance for much better portability. Yes, you're likely expend a little more energy in using a smaller axe compared to a bigger one, but you spend a lot less energy in carrying it around.

I always have a small hatchet in my hiking pack, but I'd _never_ consider a taking a larger one on a camping or hiking trip.

My little hatchet is devilishly sharp - I can shave hair off my arm with it after sharpening. I've taken a tree down with it (about 10" trunk) and it's sharp enough to make feather-sticks or deflesh a hide. While it isn't great for big meaty work (and it's terrible at splitting; too sharp) it's a tremendously versatile tool and, at 568g, it weighs exactly as much as a (UK) pint of water. I love my little axe.

While I think the addition of a larger axe in the game would add realism (there are log stoves everywhere, but not a splitting axe or log pile to be found) I don't think making firewood easier to get would make the game better. It isn't hard to come by and doesn't take long to gather in useful quantities.

 

 

1) It isn't "a little more energy" comparing a hatchet to an axe, it is a lot. And for the amount of energy you spend using a full-sized axe compared to a hatchet, you can do 3-4 times the work. 

In the long run, axes are more efficient.

2) Your hatchet is too sharp for any meaningful work.

3) How long did it take you to cut through that 10' tree? More importantly, why are you cutting down a 10' tree in the first place?

4) I have a general-purpose 3/4 axe that weighs, at most, 2 lbs. It does, quite literally, everything a hatchet can do, only better: fells, chops, splits. 

Hatchets are, and will forever remain, next-to-useless in my book. Whatever benefit you get from portability is hilariously offset by the light weight (which isn't a plus), which means you need to put in extra energy to do meaningful work. Whatever energy you "save" in carrying the thing around will be used up using the tool anyways, so in that case, why not spring for a little extra weight and 4x the effectiveness?

Whatever works for you, mate. If your toy is effective for you, go for it.

Your hatchet is only 3 times the weight of my everyday carry knife, just so you are aware. That...... isn't a good thing, not in my opinion.

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I think that maybe there's some discrepancy in terminology going on. What @Boston123 is referring to as a 3/4 axe, or Hudson Bay axe, is what I actually think of when I think of a "hatchet", and honestly is the type of axe that best fits the Long Dark's in-game description and carry-weight. "A small one-handed axe. Good for splitting wood. Can be used to hack meat in a pinch." Weighing in at 1.5 kg, or just over 3 lbs, the in-game "hatchet" doesn't actually match the definition of a hatchet at all, but it does perfectly describe a 3/4 axe. When I say that I would bring a "hatchet" with me camping or hiking, I mean the same kind of 3/4 axe, I just use hatchet as a generic term.

Interestingly, in many of the sources I have found, a true hatchet isn't even classified as an axe, but rather as a striking tool, owing to the fact that it has both a hammer-head and a cutting blade. Another point against the in-game hatchet being a true hatchet.

In the end, whether the in-game tool is a hatchet or a 3/4 axe is not the point of this topic, but whether a larger axe than is already in-game would provide any value. I still say it would, but like I said before, it might just be something that sounds good in my head without actually being beneficial in-game.

For anyone who's interested, here's an interesting article on axes: The 5 Types of Ax Everyone Should Know

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every camping kit anyone in my family owns has a proper hatchet, every house with a wood stove has a proper ax - so basically one suitable for hauling around over rough terrain and one suitable for a base camp.  I wouldn't mind having a proper ax for my base camp, but its the hatchet that's going on walkabout. 

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I kind of skimmed this thread, so I don't know if anyone mentioned it, but axes are on the roadmap. My only thing is that we shouldn't be able to chop down trees. It is impractical in every sense. When you really think about it, no one thinks, "Oh shoot, I just crash-landed in the wild... Better start building a cabin!" So many other games give the option to build a home base, but that is a bunch of unrealistic b.s. This is why I like TLD. It strives for realism beyond any other game, and I would like it to stay that way. 

Thoughts?

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By two handed hatchet I assume you mean (drumroll...) ax!

Three basic types of axes

1. Hatchet/Handaxe - roughly 1 foot handle, give or take a few inches.  Often under a pound.  Convenient to carry.  Not really effective for serious work.  Not really enough room for two hands.  

2. 3/4 axe - roughly 2 foot  handle, give or take a few inches.  Usually 2 to 2.5 lbs.  Sometimes called hunter axe, small axe, forest axe, hudson bay axe.  Idea is it is lighter and easier to carry (especially in a backpack) but still big enough to do some serious chopping

3.  Felling axe - generally a little over 2 and a half feet.   4 to 5 lbs.  This is the axe of choice for serious chopping...like chopping down trees all day.

There are other axes but they are more defined by having axe heads of certain shapes to do specialty work

Edited by akodo1
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On 2017-03-15 at 8:38 PM, Jolan said:

every camping kit anyone in my family owns has a proper hatchet, every house with a wood stove has a proper ax - so basically one suitable for hauling around over rough terrain and one suitable for a base camp.  I wouldn't mind having a proper ax for my base camp, but its the hatchet that's going on walkabout. 

fair enough, but a 'proper' axe to go with a wood stove is generally a splitting maul, which would be not useful in TLD. Splitting axes/mauls are good for spiltting cut lengths of logs, but absolutely terrible for cutting down a tree. (mauls tend not be we well sharpened, and the shape of the head is designed only for splitting, not chopping).

Check out Dragon's link to the 5 kinds of axes... it's well done :)

@Boston123, what do you mean, Dug's hatchet is too sharp for meaningful work? (purely curious)  My understanding is that the sharper the better for axes (so long as the bevel is kept on the proper angle)... being able to shave with it is just about right in my books...  (and Mors Kochanski's as well!)... That's how sharp I (try to) keep mine as well-- hatchet, 3/4 size (ish...), and felling. ;).   Which one of these I take really depends on the trek...  long days of fieldwork, I bring the hatchet just in case I need to knock some shrubs/small trees down to open up a heli pad etc.  The 3/4 fits in a day pack (or larger) comfortably for short to long hikes (depends on if i think I'll be better served by an axe or a saw though).  If I'm going to be canoeing, the felling axe comes along.

Edited by toebar
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@toebar We're talking axes not mauls.  And I don't know what the general population does but my family gathers wood from their properties and one of the tools is an ax.  Its the first entry the article you so dismisively told me to read.

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2 hours ago, Jolan said:

@toebar We're talking axes not mauls.  And I don't know what the general population does but my family gathers wood from their properties and one of the tools is an ax.  Its the first entry the article you so dismisively told me to read.

A maul is just an axe designed for splitting wood-- they're not mutually exclusive terms.  In terms of firewood gathering, most people cut down trees with a saw (usually a chain saw these days but a felling axe would work), and then buck it up to length that fits in the wood stove with a saw (a felling axe would work but would take way too long-- and you'd waste a lot of wood chips), and then split the logs (for drying and again for size) with a splitting axe/maul.  That's why I said that a maul usually goes with a wood stove.

I didn't intend it to be dismissive-- :) I just found it to be an informative summary.

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19 hours ago, toebar said:

fair enough, but a 'proper' axe to go with a wood stove is generally a splitting maul, which would be not useful in TLD. Splitting axes/mauls are good for spiltting cut lengths of logs, but absolutely terrible for cutting down a tree. (mauls tend not be we well sharpened, and the shape of the head is designed only for splitting, not chopping).

Check out Dragon's link to the 5 kinds of axes... it's well done :)

@Boston123, what do you mean, Dug's hatchet is too sharp for meaningful work? (purely curious)  My understanding is that the sharper the better for axes (so long as the bevel is kept on the proper angle)... being able to shave with it is just about right in my books...  (and Mors Kochanski's as well!)... That's how sharp I (try to) keep mine as well-- hatchet, 3/4 size (ish...), and felling. ;).   Which one of these I take really depends on the trek...  long days of fieldwork, I bring the hatchet just in case I need to knock some shrubs/small trees down to open up a heli pad etc.  The 3/4 fits in a day pack (or larger) comfortably for short to long hikes (depends on if i think I'll be better served by an axe or a saw though).  If I'm going to be canoeing, the felling axe comes along.

The thinner the edge, the more likely it is to roll, chip or bend. And with an axe, the weight does most of the work anyways, so if you are using the axe correctly, you don't "need" it to be razor sharp. Putting in work to keep it that sharp is ultimately, in my opinion at least, a waste of energy. A "less-sharp" edge will be not measurably less effective, and take much less work to maintain.

Ultimately, it depends on what you are planning on doing with the tool. If I had a specialized felling axe, I would keep that thing sharper. I do not, however, and I have to keep my 3/4 axe generalized. Therefore, I am better off keeping the axe "less sharp", so it can be used to fell, buck and split as I need to. 

Of course, I am generally predisposed against hatchets anyways, so it just might be my bias showing. I also have a weird preference for both specialized and generalized tools. For example, I have both a folding bucksaw and a 3/4 axe that never leave my pack. Between the two of them, I can handle anything up to about a foot with little issue.

My sheath knife has a wider bevel than my folding knife, which is used for very specific tasks.

 

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35 minutes ago, Boston123 said:

The thinner the edge, the more likely it is to roll, chip or bend. And with an axe, the weight does most of the work anyways, so if you are using the axe correctly, you don't "need" it to be razor sharp. Putting in work to keep it that sharp is ultimately, in my opinion at least, a waste of energy. A "less-sharp" edge will be not measurably less effective, and take much less work to maintain.

Absolutely true--also, poor quality steel can also lead to these issues.    One of the keys here is maintaining a proper bevel angle so that you don't make the blade too thin when you sharpen it. 

While the weight does do the work, a sharper blade means less effort is required.  Still, I get what you're saying--  as long as it is *reasonably* sharp it will do what you need it to do.  Let's call it personal preference :) 

Hatchets are often used for finer work-- e.g.  feathersticks for tinder., so sharpness can be a real benefit for them.  A sharp knife can perform this task as well, so again it depends on the situation.

P.S. (off topic)  what kind of folding saw do you have?.... I'm in the market to replace my Bahco...

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Replace it with another Bahco? I love my Laplander; never found better for the price (although, to be honest, I haven't searched that hard). Love it almost as much as my little X5 hatchet. ;-)

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ok, not a replacement to be fair--  I have no complaint with it. :) I just need a second saw to keep with the camping kit instead of always transferring it between field work and camping...   

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On 3/20/2017 at 6:33 PM, toebar said:

Absolutely true--also, poor quality steel can also lead to these issues.    One of the keys here is maintaining a proper bevel angle so that you don't make the blade too thin when you sharpen it. 

While the weight does do the work, a sharper blade means less effort is required.  Still, I get what you're saying--  as long as it is *reasonably* sharp it will do what you need it to do.  Let's call it personal preference :) 

Hatchets are often used for finer work-- e.g.  feathersticks for tinder., so sharpness can be a real benefit for them.  A sharp knife can perform this task as well, so again it depends on the situation.

P.S. (off topic)  what kind of folding saw do you have?.... I'm in the market to replace my Bahco...

 I made it, kinda like this guy

http://poleandpaddle.com/tools/folding_bucksaws

 

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If I were attempting to survive in the conditions seen in The Long Dark. I would have all the axes I could lay my hands on as well as saws. The simple reason is that firewood is life in the far North. Plain and simple. Survival depends upon spending between 30% and 10% of your free time harvesting firewood; to do this job proficiently you need a sled, a saw, an axe and a splitting maul. Most people make use of gasoline to do this work because it is intensive. They use a snow mobile and a chain saw and that greatly reduces the amount of time they must spend cutting wood. If you are camping in a snow shelter, you probably have to devote the majority of your time to getting firewood to prevent freezing. You better have a good supply of fishing line, hooks and bait because that is your only hope for survival. That is the harsh reality of real life survival.

TLD is a game. If we get better tools for harvesting wood, it would only be because we are going to face longer and worse storms. I'm not keen to have longer storms unless we have much more serious crafting and unless cabin fever mechanic is changed.

As for energy expenditure, I would hate to rely on a hatchet; it is simply a tool that you can carry on a hiking trip in the summer. You would not carry one on an extended multi-day hike in winter; you would carry a light axe probably or a folding saw.

In the game you find sticks all over the place. That's another compromise; in winter, the sticks are covered by snow and they are wet. You must find standing dead wood in real life, you must fell it, you must buck it, you must split it and then you must make kindling and finally you must have tinder. If you don't have matches or lighters, you better have really good tinder that takes a spark nicely! Most of the cattails you can encounter in winter, are not that great; you should have harvested them earlier and dried them.

There is a Poll about wood harvesting tools. We should see how the results fare on that. Often we desire features that make the game easier; we forget that what we need are features that actually make the game much more challenging and complex!

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I finally found the Poll on wood harvesting items including saws of various types. The word "saw" is on an exclusion list, since it occurs so frequently however the word saws is searchable.

Wood saws and Other Wood Tools [POLL]

Moderator: It's a tall order, but there are probably several topics (that could be merged) on axes, saws and other tools as well as a discussion on the concepts of longer storms that require a large cache of firewood. I have noticed the expert players (on YouTube) are now building caches of sticks every time they venture out and they frequently cache them for when they need them in advance. So far, I haven't seen anyone survive long enough on Interloper to endure the really long and horrible blizzards that are surely to come as the Long Dark Winter gets far far worse. I really love the concept of progressive hardness as well as the concept of game heuristic tuning to meet the player skill level. Evil grin. This concept should satisfy the most jaded Interlopers who are not yet challenged enough. Apparently there are some who survive Interloper without benefit of clothing nor matches? I'm curious if there is a leader board or statistics that could demonstrate these experts (possibly those with insider knowledge) just to throw down the gauntlet.

Edited by SteveP
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