suggestion about archery


Vinceofpyrenees

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only if crouching invisibility effect goes away. otherwise way too easy

I say modify it all the way..

-remove adding to the archery skill for making bows or arrows.

-move that skill to a crafting skill as it should be

-get bonus skill points when you hit with the bow, and minor skill points when you miss an actual target(so you can't cheat it). reason being, you learn from misses as you do from hits. you adjust the trajectory etc so you actually do learn.

-same can be said with the rifle, you do learn from misses and cleaning it does not help your skill much.

just my $.02 which is worth... well nearly $.03 Canadian.... ;-)

 

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It is actually rather difficult to use a bow when crouched, or sitting for that matter.

When drawing a bow, you load the weight onto the muscles of the back. When standing, this is relatively easy because you have better leverage, but when you are sitting, it can be relatively difficult, due to decreased leverage.

I'm not saying it is impossible, just more difficult.

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Personally, I find that being able to shoot while crouched seriously detracts from the challenge of the game. I think it should not be possible even at level 5 and have believed this ever since the archery skill was introduced. God forbid it becomes possible at a lower level.

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12 hours ago, AZHockeyNut said:

only if crouching invisibility effect goes away. otherwise way too easy

I say modify it all the way..

-remove adding to the archery skill for making bows or arrows.

-move that skill to a crafting skill as it should be

-get bonus skill points when you hit with the bow, and minor skill points when you miss an actual target(so you can't cheat it). reason being, you learn from misses as you do from hits. you adjust the trajectory etc so you actually do learn.

-same can be said with the rifle, you do learn from misses and cleaning it does not help your skill much.

just my $.02 which is worth... well nearly $.03 Canadian.... ;-)

 

You're right for the skill system. "It's not because I clean my car every day that I will become michael shumacher". ( just for the example, I don't do that^^).

But archery books yes.

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On 04/02/2017 at 2:13 AM, mystifeid said:

Personally, I find that being able to shoot while crouched seriously detracts from the challenge of the game. I think it should not be possible even at level 5 and have believed this ever since the archery skill was introduced. God forbid it becomes possible at a lower level.

why exactly would it take away from the challenge? irl shooting while kneeling is more stable than standing, while the shot might be weaker but more precise. atm shooting while running up on the target is a lot easier than shooting from one place so i dont think it would change anything on difficulty. 

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4 hours ago, vargata said:

why exactly would it take away from the challenge? irl shooting while kneeling is more stable than standing, while the shot might be weaker but more precise. atm shooting while running up on the target is a lot easier than shooting from one place so i dont think it would change anything on difficulty.

The easy answer is for you to reach level 5 and see for yourself. And please do not make the mistake of comparing this to real life.

"Shooting while running up on a target" might be successful when chasing a deer and it ricochets off a boundary and heads straight for you but how many rabbits or wolves have you killed with this method?

Let's examine what happens in a large open area such as on the ice in Coastal Highway - where rabbits and deer will always run away from you -  before and after level 5 is attained.

1. The level 1, 2, 3, or 4 archer

a) Rabbits. It will be very difficult to hit a rabbit without first crouch walking close to the rabbit, standing and shooting. Very soon after you stand, the rabbit will spook and run away but the act of standing will change the point at which you are aiming so before you stand you must guess where you will be aiming after you stand. It is not hard to be wrong.

b) Deer. As for rabbits - crouch walking is necessary and then an estimation must be made prior to standing as to where you will be aiming. However unlike rabbits where any hit is fatal, deer can be wounded and then run for miles. In order to achieve a fatal shot it is best to approach the deer head on so that any hit is more likely to be in the head or the front of the chest.

c) Wolves. Although you can run up to the wolf and then kill it as it charges, a high degree of success will require much more practice than crouch walking close to the wolf before standing and shooting. Once more a guess must be made as to the final aiming point after you stand. There are a few outcomes:
(i) Undershooting. The wolf will usually spook and run away.
(ii) Hit. The wolf will die or run away wounded, possibly critically.
(iii) Overshoot. The wolf will usually charge and although you may have given yourself the room for another shot, this situation will often end in a struggle. Usually with bad consequences.

2. The level 5 archer

a) Rabbits. There is no need to stand so you can crouch walk close to the rabbit and fire with no fear of spooking the rabbit. You can aim directly at the rabbit. There is no guessing as to where your aim might end up after you stand up. It is so easy to kill rabbits that it is not even necessary to stop moving while you aim and fire.

b) Deer. As for rabbits. The deer will not spook until you are ridiculously close, there is no aim adjustment and no need to stop crouch walking while you aim and shoot. Unlike the lower levels, the level 5 archer can now approach from side on and have a good expectation of a fatal head, neck or chest shot. Head on shots are now almost always fatal. Deer have become sitting ducks.

c) Wolves. Again you can aim directly at the wolf and now it often actually helps to not stop moving while you aim and fire. The outcomes:
(i) Undershoot. As before the wolf will run away but since it has not seen you, it is more likely to run straight past you allowing a second shot at very close range.
(ii) Hit. As before. A hit is a hit. However, with no aim adjustment and a total lack of fear, your chances of a hit are vastly improved. Think about it: no fear wolf hunting.
(iii) Overshoot. Unlike before, the wolf will continue on, oblivious to you, allowing you to take another shot at your leisure. The wolf is toast.

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I have gotten pretty good at hunting with the bow thru many games. I hit rabbit regularly even at level one. takes a lot of practice and games but yeah you can do it. I almost always shoot down hill whenever possible and alter my approach to most every target that way. for me, don't know why, downhill is easier to guess where to aim.

 

and very well thought out answer @mystifeid

 

:)

 

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1 hour ago, mystifeid said:

The easy answer is for you to reach level 5 and see for yourself. And please do not make the mistake of comparing this to real life.

"Shooting while running up on a target" might be successful when chasing a deer and it ricochets off a boundary and heads straight for you but how many rabbits or wolves have you killed with this method?

Let's examine what happens in a large open area such as on the ice in Coastal Highway - where rabbits and deer will always run away from you -  before and after level 5 is attained.

1. The level 1, 2, 3, or 4 archer

a) Rabbits. It will be very difficult to hit a rabbit without first crouch walking close to the rabbit, standing and shooting. Very soon after you stand, the rabbit will spook and run away but the act of standing will change the point at which you are aiming so before you stand you must guess where you will be aiming after you stand. It is not hard to be wrong.

b) Deer. As for rabbits - crouch walking is necessary and then an estimation must be made prior to standing as to where you will be aiming. However unlike rabbits where any hit is fatal, deer can be wounded and then run for miles. In order to achieve a fatal shot it is best to approach the deer head on so that any hit is more likely to be in the head or the front of the chest.

c) Wolves. Although you can run up to the wolf and then kill it as it charges, a high degree of success will require much more practice than crouch walking close to the wolf before standing and shooting. Once more a guess must be made as to the final aiming point after you stand. There are a few outcomes:
(i) Undershooting. The wolf will usually spook and run away.
(ii) Hit. The wolf will die or run away wounded, possibly critically.
(iii) Overshoot. The wolf will usually charge and although you may have given yourself the room for another shot, this situation will often end in a struggle. Usually with bad consequences.

2. The level 5 archer

a) Rabbits. There is no need to stand so you can crouch walk close to the rabbit and fire with no fear of spooking the rabbit. You can aim directly at the rabbit. There is no guessing as to where your aim might end up after you stand up. It is so easy to kill rabbits that it is not even necessary to stop moving while you aim and fire.

b) Deer. As for rabbits. The deer will not spook until you are ridiculously close, there is no aim adjustment and no need to stop crouch walking while you aim and shoot. Unlike the lower levels, the level 5 archer can now approach from side on and have a good expectation of a fatal head, neck or chest shot. Head on shots are now almost always fatal. Deer have become sitting ducks.

c) Wolves. Again you can aim directly at the wolf and now it often actually helps to not stop moving while you aim and fire. The outcomes:
(i) Undershoot. As before the wolf will run away but since it has not seen you, it is more likely to run straight past you allowing a second shot at very close range.
(ii) Hit. As before. A hit is a hit. However, with no aim adjustment and a total lack of fear, your chances of a hit are vastly improved. Think about it: no fear wolf hunting.
(iii) Overshoot. Unlike before, the wolf will continue on, oblivious to you, allowing you to take another shot at your leisure. The wolf is toast.

yeah, this is nice and all, except all wild should run from you even if crouch walking just later than when walking or running.
crouching does not make anybody magically invisible so it shouldnt ingame. if an animal looks at you and you are in their vision, they should run.

use trees as cover or slowly walk up on them from the back. watch for wind direction or they will smell you and run, dont step on sticks or they will hear you coming and run. etc

atm hunting is horribly simplified and disabling shooting while crouching isnt the solution imo... ohhh, and killed a ton of rabbits with this method, they arent only turning around at walls or rocks, they change direction randomly and they dont have to come head on to easily lead aim and finish them off while they try to pass by me. i never ever crouchwalked for hunting simply run in, spook all the animals around, they will start running randomly, pick the one tries to pass by me, lead aim and kill.

or, if i see just a single bunny i simply shoot it from the distance without even going close like this. at a snowy night oneshotting a bunny from out of spooking distance with a lvl2 archer.... 

and this is not at all difficult, i can do it any time. just a little guesswork.

 

what is weird for me. crouching makes you nearly invisible but in snow shelter bunnies are still running from you...

the guys should implement a vision cone, a noise radius and a threatening value and crouching should only give some bonus reduction on noise and threatening.

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On 2/3/2017 at 5:25 PM, Boston123 said:

It is actually rather difficult to use a bow when crouched, or sitting for that matter.

When drawing a bow, you load the weight onto the muscles of the back. When standing, this is relatively easy because you have better leverage, but when you are sitting, it can be relatively difficult, due to decreased leverage.

I'm not saying it is impossible, just more difficult.

As an avid hunter I can tell you it all depends on the style of bow.  In a sitting position drawing a simple curve bow like the survival bow is no more difficult. It does however take more time to bring to full draw until you get used to the movements. It does also significantly increase accuracy as your body has multiple points of contact to the ground making you more steady.

Where this really shows is in compound bows.  They have what is called a let off.  Where the draw weight is significantly decreased by a pulley breaking a line of set tension. To the degree of a compound bow set at 130 pound draw weight will let off down to around 50 pounds.

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10 hours ago, vargata said:

yeah, this is nice and all, except all wild should run from you even if crouch walking just later than when walking or running.
crouching does not make anybody magically invisible so it shouldnt ingame. if an animal looks at you and you are in their vision, they should run.

use trees as cover or slowly walk up on them from the back. watch for wind direction or they will smell you and run, dont step on sticks or they will hear you coming and run. etc

atm hunting is horribly simplified

I agree. And when they fix the other ten thousand unrealistic things in the game, maybe they can think about fixing that as well. Oh wait, they've said that challenge and not realism is their focus.

10 hours ago, vargata said:

ohhh, and killed a ton of rabbits with this method, they arent only turning around at walls or rocks, they change direction randomly and they dont have to come head on to easily lead aim and finish them off while they try to pass by me. i never ever crouchwalked for hunting simply run in, spook all the animals around, they will start running randomly, pick the one tries to pass by me, lead aim and kill.

or, if i see just a single bunny i simply shoot it from the distance without even going close like this. at a snowy night oneshotting a bunny from out of spooking distance with a lvl2 archer.... 

I have killed my fair share of rabbits from afar or as they run past me but my hit/shot ratio is higher if I crouch walk close first and I like to preserve the condition of my arrows.

But if you say that you have a 100% success rate doing otherwise then I can only envy your skill.

Do you enjoy this same success with wolves? You must because they're bigger. I would be curious to see how many wolves you have killed in a bow only game (eg Interloper) with long range shots and at what struggle/kill ratio. Are you playing Interloper btw?

It has been my experience that after running up to four deer in the open that they will all run away from me and the directions taken are not so random. They will never try to run past me. Maybe I'm wrong though and should change my tactics. On the other hand, by doing this I will not be able to kill two deer per day right next to a sheltered cooking spot.

pv_hunt.jpg

In one 200 day Interloper game I spent 170 days in Pleasant Valley and experienced 160+ blizzards. Temperatures rarely ever rose above a felt like -17°C.

Where I kill something is always my first consideration.

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4 hours ago, AZHockeyNut said:

I have gotten pretty good at hunting with the bow thru many games. I hit rabbit regularly even at level one. takes a lot of practice and games but yeah you can do it. I almost always shoot down hill whenever possible and alter my approach to most every target that way. for me, don't know why, downhill is easier to guess where to aim.

I can't stand downhill shots. Wolves always get me. You seem to be consistently completely the opposite to me which is actually pretty refreshing.

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8 hours ago, mystifeid said:

And when they fix the other ten thousand unrealistic things in the game

to get back to op, they wouldnt have to fix ten thousand unrealistic things to make crouching shots viable. only remove the stupid thing that you can walk up to 3 meters to a deer or rabbit if you are crouching. its silly. crouchwalk should give you like 2-3 steps extra when the wild can see you and more when you are behind them but not like now... if thats done, crouchshooting could become a thing. would actually be more difficult than the current way. you advocating to keep a mechanism in the game that makes it actually easier, instead of fixing crouchwalking and removing an artificial block. and no, nobody has 100% rate i guess and i dont want to have that, that would again be too easy. i have more like 30% which still means every 3rd arrow kills.

8 hours ago, mystifeid said:

Oh wait, they've said that challenge and not realism is their focus.

but... the current crouchwalking, even with the requirement to stand up actually takes from the challenge instead of adding to it and its even more unrealistic... realism and challenge are NOT against each others

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@vargata, once again let me agree that crouch walking close to prey should not be feasible. I just don't think it's on the agenda just yet. Most people seem to find learning to hunt with the bow to be very difficult.

Things get worse in Interloper when rapidly deteriorating health from exposure to the cold adds significant pressure. And where if you want a wolfskin coat, you must kill wolves with the bow. They aren't such friendly fellows anymore either. More pressure.

Frankly, I think that if you are playing Interloper, then you are doing exceedingly well to be able to survive with a 30% hit rate. I don't think I could.

Let me conclude by saying that if you can suggest any way to make the game harder then I will generally be all for it. The intention behind my original statement - to which you have objected at length - was to increase the difficulty.

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6 hours ago, mystifeid said:

@vargata, once again let me agree that crouch walking close to prey should not be feasible. I just don't think it's on the agenda just yet. Most people seem to find learning to hunt with the bow to be very difficult.

As someone who has not had time to game in over a month I can only agree with this statement. ^_^

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On 2/3/2017 at 4:25 PM, Boston123 said:

It is actually rather difficult to use a bow when crouched, or sitting for that matter.

When drawing a bow, you load the weight onto the muscles of the back. When standing, this is relatively easy because you have better leverage, but when you are sitting, it can be relatively difficult, due to decreased leverage.

I'm not saying it is impossible, just more difficult.

the majority of deer I have hunted through the years most have been taken while I was sitting 

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15 minutes ago, dbldrew said:

the majority of deer I have hunted through the years most have been taken while I was sitting 

Again, not impossible.

Plus, using a compound bow, as the majority of bowhunters today hunters do (I do not want to assume anything about you personally) tends to be easier in general than using a "real" bow....

.... my prejudices may be showing.

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8 hours ago, Boston123 said:

Again, not impossible.

Plus, using a compound bow, as the majority of bowhunters today hunters do (I do not want to assume anything about you personally) tends to be easier in general than using a "real" bow....

.... my prejudices may be showing.

yes compound bow but even with a 80% let off I'm still drawing 70lbs at some point in the draw. I doubt a survival bow would be anywhere close to that.. maybe a draw weight of 35-40lbs would seem reasonable. So in regards to drawing while sitting or crouched I dont see that it would matter and probably be easier with the survival "real" bow 

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