suggestion Ideas for forging mechanic

[TheHunter280]

Hello, I want to share ideas for the forging system because it's underused and could give some interest for late game.

1-Implementation of forging skill

The skill should work one hour for a skill point

Level 1 : Already what we have, possibility to make hatchet head in 10 hours, knife blade in 5 hours, pry bar in 3 hour, heavy hammer head in 6 hours,can reforge tool to repair them,possibility to forge weld unusable scrap metal to make resusable scrap metal with a 75% loss and 50% chance to break.

Text : You don't know what you are doing by beating hot steel and you break easily your work plus you waste a lot of usable steel. Watch out to not burn you

Level 2 : Require 15 skill point, 10% time reduction for metal working (include fishing hook and grinding), 5 fishing hook for one scrap metal and forge welding resusable scrap metal with a 50% loss

Text : You begin to know how the metal and forge welding work and beginner error are less frequent but breaking is still a mystery and you still loose some steel

Level 3 : 50 skill point required, 15% time reduction for metal working, 10 fishing hook per scrap metal, 35% breaking chance, 25% loss when forge welding, all your handmade tool degrade 10% slower

Text : You can now call yourself a blacksmith, you see when the metal break, the loss are small and you don't waste time on incertitude

Level 4 : 100 skill point required, 20% time reduction for metal working, 15 fishing hook per scrap metal, 20% breaking chance, 10% loss when forge welding, all your handmade tool degrade 20% slower

Text : You are a pro efficient machine at forging and your steel is tougher and harder

Level 5 : 175 skill point required, 25% time reduction for metal working, 20 fishing hook per scrap metal, 10% breaking chance, 10% loss when forge welding, all your handmade tool degrade 25% slower

Text : The steel is bent by your will and all that limit you is the material

All those texts are just crappy idea from mine

2-Item that could be implemented

Charcoal because yes, there is a quicker way to make fuel for forging than waiting coal to respawn in mines : You can have from burned out camp fire in minuscule quantity or making it in a self made structure for charcoal making

-Weight 75% less than the initial weight of the fire wood in a portion of 0,25 Kg

-150min/Kg and 15°C by each portion

-Can't start with it

A skill book for forging. Handy if we don't want to burn fuel. Give you 10 skill point for 10 hours of research

Grinding stone. That's how things were grinded before limes. Slower than simple tools for grinding 15% time penalty, as fast as a wetstone to sharpen, weight 0.1 Kg and findable outdoors (rare)

Handle for respective tool. Always cool to have spare when it will broke, any kind of fire wood will make it and can be made on the field

Blades and heads. I don't want my hours of work lost because my handle broke

Every forged tool should have a different skin because the lootable hatchet, knife and hammer are weak when it come to sturdiness and maintaining and to ease the identification

The lootable hatchet don't have a hole in, it make the handle irreplaceable and it suck when it come tong term. It's still a good swedish style head

The lootable hunting knife have a pull tang which become loose inevitably and replacing a new handle is harder since you have to carve the inner

Forged knife must have a full tang and heads with a hole in it

3-New mechanics

Those simple and quality tools need some interest. I assume there is a set of tool for quit everything in those boxes (files), you must have them since how can you put a cutting edge on a blade without it except if you are a master or a troll physic. Using them to sharpening blade

-Grinding take 6 hours level 1 with simple tools to put a cutting edge on a cutting tool

-Forge welding need a hammer and a forge running and it take 1,5 hours to forge weld 1 Kg of unusable scrap metal at level 1

-Breaking is a restart from zero to make the tool desired. I know it's boring and frustrating to see RNG ruin your day

-A condition percentage for each : handle, metal part and sharpness

Handle : Not reparable and can be scrap for reclaimed wood. No difference when it come to effectiveness or condition for the firewood chosen except in weight

Metal part condition : Must return to a forge to repair it with a scrap metal for one hour, 20% condition gained at each operation

Sharpness : 0% dull (20% time penalty, it cannot get duller than that), 25% sharp enough (10% time penalty and dull 50% slower), 50% Fair (Like what we have now), 75% Sharp (10% time reduction, dull 25% quicker), 100% razor blade (20% time reduction, dull 50% quicker)

Minor idea and though on this suggestion

I think it could be a base for forging, adding more tools, object and a lot of thing.

As you see it's a big suggestion, so I except it will take 6 to 12 month at least. If it goes on a update I will name it "Glowing sparkle" or "Iron will" just for fun

Thank you to have read this whole post pass a good day and don't hesitate to give your feedback and ideas

[Rolandtigerfish]

Love it.

[Nyarlathotep]

On 1/19/2017 at 5:21 AM, TheHunter280 said:

As you see it's a big suggestion, so I except it will take 6 to 12 month at least. If it goes on a update I will name it "Glowing sparkle" or "Iron will" just for fun

Thank you to have read this whole post pass a good day and don't hesitate to give your feedback and ideas

Excellent suggestions. Forging is an artform, and it would be great to see more detail applied to this aspect of the game.

[Pillock]

I think a forging skill makes absolute sense, given the other tasks that already have the skill system attached to them. In fact, and this has been suggested before, I think the whole forging ability should be gated behind an initial research book - so you can't do it at all until you have unlocked it by reading. Forging metal tools is not something you should be able to just do if you've never been educated in it first. I think the same goes for making hunting bows as well. Your first attempts would be so bad that the end product would probably be totally unuseable. I think you should need a skill level before you even attempt it.

[nicko]

On 1/19/2017 at 4:51 AM, TheHunter280 said:

A skill book for forging

good start many other cool ideas too. well worth watching.

[Nyarlathotep]

I don't think gating the skill behind a skillbook is a good idea, RNG has been known to play some nasty tricks on players. True, forging is not something you should succeed at the first time, and maybe that should be reflected in heavy penalties for early forging attempts, ie: quality of item/forge times etc..

[Ohbal]

2 hours ago, Nyarlathotep said:

I don't think gating the skill behind a skillbook is a good idea, RNG has been known to play some nasty tricks on players. True, forging is not something you should succeed at the first time, and maybe that should be reflected in heavy penalties for early forging attempts, ie: quality of item/forge times etc..

Not all in game loot is RNG, some items are hand-placed or have a 100% chance of spawning somewhere in the map. Just wanted to throw this here before you discard the skill-behind-book mechanic (which I find interesting). 

[SteelFire]

5 minutes ago, Ohbal said:

Not all in game loot is RNG, some items are hand-placed or have a 100% chance of spawning somewhere in the map. Just wanted to throw this here before you discard the skill-behind-book mechanic (which I find interesting). 

I was going to say the same thing, except then I thought about the fact that we now have two forges. So, do we then need more then one book or does the book have to be located in a region outside of DP or FM?

[Pillock]

1 minute ago, SteelFire said:

I was going to say the same thing, except then I thought about the fact that we now have two forges. So, do we then need more then one book or does the book have to be located in a region outside of DP or FM?

The way I look at it, you already need to go and find the hammer before you can forge. On Interloper it's on a different map from the forge itself, but on the other modes it can spawn in the same region. Neither DP nor FM are very big, in terms of searching for them. I wouldn't have any issue with the metal work book being located somewhere near the forge (perhaps not in Interloper?). There's usually more than one of each book in the world as it is?

2 hours ago, Nyarlathotep said:

I don't think gating the skill behind a skillbook is a good idea, RNG has been known to play some nasty tricks on players. True, forging is not something you should succeed at the first time, and maybe that should be reflected in heavy penalties for early forging attempts, ie: quality of item/forge times etc..

In any case, I don't think you'd need to be worried about not finding it, or even about not being able to forge at all. It's pretty far from necessary, given how many ready-made hatchets, knives and arrow heads are available to find - plus the fact that these tools aren't even necessary for your character's survival anyway. Interloper is always the exception, but I doubt many people would object to that being made harder. It's supposed to be extremely difficult.

[TheHunter280]

OP is here to reply to your post

3 hours ago, Pillock said:

In any case, I don't think you'd need to be worried about not finding it, or even about not being able to forge at all. It's pretty far from necessary, given how many ready-made hatchets, knives and arrow heads are available to find - plus the fact that these tools aren't even necessary for your character's survival anyway.

@Pillock It's true. Tools loot is very generous, branch and sticks are easily findable, renouvelable, doesn't require tools and ready to use, magnifying lens are infinite. Tools are just confort for late game

8 hours ago, Pillock said:

I think a forging skill makes absolute sense, given the other tasks that already have the skill system attached to them. In fact, and this has been suggested before, I think the whole forging ability should be gated behind an initial research book - so you can't do it at all until you have unlocked it by reading. Forging metal tools is not something you should be able to just do if you've never been educated in it first. I think the same goes for making hunting bows as well. Your first attempts would be so bad that the end product would probably be totally unuseable. I think you should need a skill level before you even attempt it.

I've read the topic about it made by Vulp and it was not very detailed and exhaustive to my taste

From what I think the game is a "as much realistic survival situation" so if my character don't have any clue on how to forge it he/she will try to reproduce a design that really work until it work. I don't see any problem, that's how we did when it was our first try and it's by forging that we become blacksmith

6 hours ago, Nyarlathotep said:

I don't think gating the skill behind a skillbook is a good idea, RNG has been known to play some nasty tricks on players. True, forging is not something you should succeed at the first time, and maybe that should be reflected in heavy penalties for early forging attempts, ie: quality of item/forge times etc..

@Nyarlathotep Me too I don't like to be blocked to initiate a manual task because I haven't read a book. I like your idea on heavy penalties for early attempts and it's first time, right ?

4 hours ago, SteelFire said:

I was going to say the same thing, except then I thought about the fact that we now have two forges. So, do we then need more then one book or does the book have to be located in a region outside of DP or FM?

@SteelFire I think that any place with a workshop should have a chance to spawn the forging book, because forging is a skill that every crafter would want to know. It would be quit detailed to see that the family in the Farmstead wanted to have a forge and there is no forge

[cekivi]

Cool idea @TheHunter280 (and welcome to the forums if I haven't said so already)

My two thoughts:

I would like to see forging gated behind some sort of skill book/NPC training. While most people know it can be done... very few people know how to forge effectively. For instance, how hot do you need a forge for it to actually work? The game prevents you from trying to shape steel when it's too cold but what if it allowed you to waste your time to fail the forge check when you try? I'd also prefer fishing hooks to not be forgable items at all since you can make a fish hook from almost anything thin and sharp. Same with arrowheads but that seems to be a lost cause at this point

As a compromise I'd suggest being stuck at the "0" skill level until you find a skill book. Only then could you begin leveling up. Alternatively, you could make it so skill books decrease leveling times and make it take far longer to progress in skill.

 

For point #2 I like the idea of a more in depth tool degradation system. One was already proposed a while back regarding sharpening (see below). Also, requiring a tool box to put a rough edge on your forged tools is a great idea! It'll give the tool box some more uses aside from being a source of scrap metal and lantern repair.

 

[TheHunter280]

@cekivi

23 minutes ago, cekivi said:

Cool idea @TheHunter280 (and welcome to the forums if I haven't said so already)

Thanks, you already told that to me but it's cool

49 minutes ago, cekivi said:

I would like to see forging gated behind some sort of skill book/NPC training. While most people know it can be done... very few people know how to forge effectively. For instance, how hot do you need a forge for it to actually work? The game prevents you from trying to shape steel when it's too cold but what if it allowed you to waste your time to fail the forge check when you try? I'd also prefer fishing hooks to not be forgable items at all since you can make a fish hook from almost anything thin and sharp. Same with arrowheads but that seems to be a lost cause at this point

As a compromise I'd suggest being stuck at the "0" skill level until you find a skill book. Only then could you begin leveling up. Alternatively, you could make it so skill books decrease leveling times and make it take far longer to progress in skill.

 

That's pretty much the knowledge of an average person. IRL the metal must be at minimum red to be ready being worked. That's what we assume when it come to scrap metal for fishing hook and those arrow are so small that it could be made from a metal plate with a hacksaw but RIP forge if the only thing to forge improsed tools, I could include a knife to be made in a workshop but it would be quite OP for the game. From my experience making one from a steel plate with a hacksaw, files, hammer, planer and drill it would around 50 hours of work if I haven't used mechanical tools

I like this idea even if I hate to be restricted because balance

53 minutes ago, cekivi said:

For point #2 I like the idea of a more in depth tool degradation system. One was already proposed a while back regarding sharpening (see below). Also, requiring a tool box to put a rough edge on your forged tools is a great idea! It'll give the tool box some more uses aside from being a source of scrap metal and lantern repair.

 

We all want that because this tool condition is just a general state and there should be condition% for sharpness, handle condition, metal part condition displayed for each tool responding those criteria (Prybar don't need change for condition% because it's a unique piece of steel)

Give them some love to the toolboxes or make them great again

Already read it and it's a very detailed topic for it's subject aborded

[cekivi]

3 minutes ago, TheHunter280 said:

@cekivi

Thanks, you already told that to me but it's cool

 

Cool. I sometimes miss people when they change their avatar

[Nyarlathotep]

I am a metal worker, so I assume that certain things should be common sense when working with it, so I went and asked my wife "what would you do if you wanted to melt metal"? 

First thing she said, was that she would go have a poke around in my shed for a torch... [work smart, not hard, lol] 

So I then reformed my question to: "if you had anything at your disposal [aside from my workshop] what do you think you would need to melt metal'?

She said she would need to get bellows and a furnace to get the fire hot enough... In my books, that's not a bad start... and she did not need to run around looking for a book to know that either.

All this aside though, personally, if i was going to make arrowheads, given the circumstances i would probably be more inclined to use flintstone, or even just sharpened shafts for rabbits. But there would need to be some serious game balancing to accommodate for this so that things did not become too easy. I firmly believe the diamond in this game is the struggle at the start, and to lessen or remove any of this, would be removing a great portion of this games charm.

Gating it behind a static placement of a required book just means you need to get to the same table in the same room in the same place on the same map [provided you don't get a [lucky?] spawn right next to the book]. 

edit: Getting to the forge in the Riken is already a very linear quest [as is above], which is sort of unfortunate in such a beautiful handcrafted world.

If forging metal was to be the only way to make my arrowheads, I'd much prefer starting with the basic knowledge of how to make them, but understand that the quality and performance of them would be appallingly shocking until i had much more time on the hammer, and hence, experience. It would give those with motivation, something to strive for and relish once it was achieved.

[Mel Guille]

Great post @Nyarlathotep, very thoughtful!

57 minutes ago, Nyarlathotep said:

Getting to the forge in the Riken is already a very linear quest [as is above], which is sort of unfortunate in such a beautiful handcrafted world.

Did you feel the same way about the forge in Forlorn Muskeg?

[Nyarlathotep]

6 minutes ago, Mel Guille said:

Great post @Nyarlathotep, very thoughtful!

Did you feel the same way about the forge in Forlorn Muskeg?

I keep dying in the muskeg, hehe.

I must admit, Its a beautiful place to die though, and i look forward to finally overcoming its challenge, especially now that i hear on the grapevine that there is a forge challenge hidden in there somewhere 

[SteelFire]

25 minutes ago, Nyarlathotep said:

I keep dying in the muskeg, hehe.

I must admit, Its a beautiful place to die though, and i look forward to finally overcoming its challenge, especially now that i hear on the grapevine that there is a forge challenge hidden in there somewhere 

Stop doing that. Silly.

 

38 minutes ago, Mel Guille said:

Great post @Nyarlathotep, very thoughtful!

Did you feel the same way about the forge in Forlorn Muskeg?

If you don't mind other perspectives... It wasn't as linear as finding the Riken, but it ended up not being as challenging as I expected. Had I not seen the update trailer and just blundered into the area, it might have been a challenge, but knowing I was entering a boggy area with weak ice laid the plan for my exploration.

 

Because of the area hazard, I decided that my initial plan would be to explore around the map edge first, to gauge how extensive the bog was and get a feel for the terrain. Randomly, I picked left when I got where I could venture away from the tracks. Ended up snow-sheltering over night at the overlook area due to taking a dip and thoroughly exploring the dry ground, but quickly found the farm the next day. Honestly, I didn't expect that. I figured the farm would be firmly stuck out in the bog somewhere, abandoned because it had been flooded out, and would take some probing to find the best access pathways.

[Nyarlathotep]

GAH ! i have read too much ! must... stop... reading... about.. muskeg...  

Seriously though, the muskeg has thrown her worst at me on a number of occasions, i need to tackle it with a little less curiosity and a little more preparation 

[SteelFire]

3 minutes ago, Nyarlathotep said:

GAH ! i have read too much ! must... stop... reading... about.. muskeg...  

Seriously though, the muskeg has thrown her worst at me on a number of occasions, i need to tackle it with a little less curiosity and a little more preparation 

OOPS!

Sorry, fixed that, my bad.

[Ruruwawa]

@SteelFire I think the muskeg forge is an easier trip too...

than the DP run.  I just travel the edges and step onto the ice as little as possible.  There are still wolves but they seem a lot easier to spot and avoid than in Crumbling Highway... much longer sightlines and few close obstacles.  This might be a tad slower than crossing the ice, but there are five caves in the zone, all on the edges.  It's nice having somewhere to warm up, especially on Interloper.

[SteelFire]

@Ruruwawa I would agree with that...

though I haven't done an Interloper run since FM was added. I know my quickest route from entrance to forge is across the ice/islands and I know the landmarks well enough I can do it even in bad weather, but that offers zero wind protection. So, yeah, in Interloper, unless I was lucky enough to get a good day, the longer, shoreline route would probably be prudent for windbreaks and shelter.

[CalNieDaGtarGuy]

17 hours ago, cekivi said:

I'd also prefer fishing hooks to not be forgable items at all since you can make a fish hook from almost anything thin and sharp. 

 

I would agree with this, but if they stay forgeable, would it really be necessary to forge 15 at one time? I have never been so determined to fish nor had that much cured gut on me at one time.

If there are research books, I think there should be a series of them, and they should take a long time to research (15 hours or more) because at beginner skill level, you would be getting into some pretty deep crap.