If/when its implemented what do you want out of the pistol?

[cekivi]

44 minutes ago, deathbydanish said:

I think the idea here should be that the revolvers are meant to be a short range self defense weapon, for example if the game had a Colt Python with the 2 inch barrel, it should be hilariously hard for an unskilled shooter to hit anything past 7 yards. So as not to break the immersion, I would think that it would be more appropriate for the revolver to spawn in areas that it is likely to be found in real life, for example the Camp Office or Trapper's Homestead, I don't expect to happen upon a revolver while walking out in the open in Forlorn Muskeg.

I know that's what they're intended for but a gun that weak would be unable to wound anything severely enough to deter it from eating you. You'd still be better off with the flares, torches and flare gun already in the game.

If an additional firearm is added I'd just like it to be a) useful and b) appropriate for the setting.

[deathbydanish]

1 hour ago, cekivi said:

I know that's what they're intended for but a gun that weak would be unable to wound anything severely enough to deter it from eating you. You'd still be better off with the flares, torches and flare gun already in the game.

If an additional firearm is added I'd just like it to be a) useful and b) appropriate for the setting.

Well that's the beauty of those .357 magnum revolvers, at 7 yards or less, a good solid hit to the vitals of a wolf for example will put it down.

" The .357 Magnum has adequate power for hunting CXP2 game (deer, for example) at short range (50 yards maximum), providing the shooter has the skill to get a suitable hunting bullet into the vitals with the first shot. It also has a sufficiently flat trajectory to engage a rifle toting criminal at 100 yards or more, something to keep in mind for protection in the field or during an urban insurrection. Only a magnum handgun shoots flat enough to realistically oppose even a short range rifle."

.357 magnum

Just for reference, apparently CXP2 game includes black bear in the ~300lbs. range.

" CXP2 class game are generally light framed animals with relatively thin skin and light muscles and bones. These are primarily deer, antelope, sheep, goats and black bear. They typically range from about 51 pounds to perhaps 300 pounds. According to the Winchester Ammunition Guide rapid, controlled expansion bullets are best for this class of game. In appropriate calibers the Federal Hi-Shok, Hornady Interlock, Nosler Ballistic Tip, Remington Core-Lokt, Sierra Pro-Hunter and GameKing, Speer Hot-Cor, Swift Sirocco, and Winchester Power Point are proven performers."

CXP guide

For balance purposes I would say make those .357 mag rounds really rare though like 2-3 per map, let the regular .38 spl rounds be more common but make them more like bear ticklers, than bear stoppers.

 

[cekivi]

A .303 Lee Enfield can't stop a bear in this game so it is very unlikely for any handgun round too

[deathbydanish]

1 hour ago, cekivi said:

A .303 Lee Enfield can't stop a bear in this game so it is very unlikely for any handgun round too

Perhaps it might be time to retune that particular aspect? I would make accuracy more difficult to achieve, I feel like in the context of this game, the muzzle energy of the .303 British is more than adequate to put down the bears you encounter, but at the same time it should only do so if you actually hit vital areas. Same thing with that magnum revolver, if you somehow miss and hit the haunches of the bear at 7 yards or less then yeah expect to be mauled, but if you are lucky enough to get the head for example neither the .303 British or the .357 magnum at 7 yards or less is lacking in muzzle energy.

 

[cekivi]

16 minutes ago, deathbydanish said:

Same thing with that magnum revolver, if you somehow miss and hit the haunches of the bear at 7 yards or less then yeah expect to be mauled, but if you are lucky enough to get the head for example neither the .303 British or the .357 magnum at 7 yards or less is lacking in muzzle energy.

 

That's just the thing: the head is the worst spot to aim for. The target is too small and the skull normally too thick for even a decent caliber rifle to have a chance of hitting the brain. That's one of my biggest complaints about the current hunting mechanic: it perpetuates the head shots = critical trope of video games. In reality you'd unload the entire clip into the heart/lungs and hope you do enough damage so the animal doesn't run too far.

[deathbydanish]

4 minutes ago, cekivi said:

That's just the thing: the head is the worst spot to aim for. The target is too small and the skull normally too thick for even a decent caliber rifle to have a chance of hitting the brain. That's one of my biggest complaints about the current hunting mechanic: it perpetuates the head shots = critical trope of video games. In reality you'd unload the entire clip into the heart/lungs and hope you do enough damage so the animal doesn't run too far.

Oh yeah it'd have to be such a rare occurrence/lucky shot that you're not going to be able to do it with regularity. If the .303 British in the game is of the full metal jacket type though, that would make it ideal for penetrating the bear's skull. I've actually been looking for AR500 plate to do target shooting and everything I have seen so far tells me that 1/4" will not withstand .30 caliber rifle rounds inside of 100 yards, I can't imagine a bear's skull being hit at less than 7 yards by a .303 British FMJ would fare any better. In any case though maybe add a heartbeat and breathing mechanic, you can be fairly certain of a shot if you are benchresting your rifle, but trying to do it offhand with an apex predator coming at you should illict the involuntary fight or flight response, which should give you a good chance to miss, even at near point blank range. Maybe have that chance decrease as your shooting skill goes up.

I agree too that the hunting mechanic needs to be reworked, I've never gone hunting before in real life, but I have a feeling that I am not supposed to be able to post up by a cabin porch, shoot a bear at ~50 yards or less without it seeing/smelling me, run inside the cabin and lock the door, then after a few hours of card playing, be able to walk outside and see that the bear has bled out. I say that in jest, but really that doesn't even seem close to what hunting would be probably be like.

[cekivi]

2 minutes ago, deathbydanish said:

Oh yeah it'd have to be such a rare occurrence/lucky shot that you're not going to be able to do it with regularity. If the .303 British in the game is of the full metal jacket type though, that would make it ideal for penetrating the bear's skull. I've actually been looking for AR500 plate to do target shooting and everything I have seen so far tells me that 1/4" will not withstand .30 caliber rifle rounds inside of 100 yards, I can't imagine a bear's skull being hit at less than 7 yards by a .303 British FMJ would fare any better. In any case though maybe add a heartbeat and breathing mechanic, you can be fairly certain of a shot if you are benchresting your rifle, but trying to do it offhand with an apex predator coming at you should illict the involuntary fight or flight response, which should give you a good chance to miss, even at near point blank range. Maybe have that chance decrease as your shooting skill goes up.

True... if we were using FMJ. Hunting rounds though are typically hollow point or soft tip since you want them to mushroom and cause trauma. Otherwise you could only shoot the head as the bullet would just pass right through the soft tissues. The animal would still die from the injuries but it would take far longer.

The other difference is you're not shooting a flat plate: you're shooting a curved skull. A more accurate comparison would be shooting your 1/4" plate at a 45 degree angle. Please don't actually do this since the rounds would probably ricochet

[deathbydanish]

3 minutes ago, cekivi said:

True... if we were using FMJ. Hunting rounds though are typically hollow point or soft tip since you want them to mushroom and cause trauma. Otherwise you could only shoot the head as the bullet would just pass right through the soft tissues. The animal would still die from the injuries but it would take far longer.

The other difference is you're not shooting a flat plate: you're shooting a curved skull. A more accurate comparison would be shooting your 1/4" plate at a 45 degree angle. Please don't actually do this since the rounds would probably ricochet

That's what I've read too, there's a dual spring mounting system that holds the plates up, but the weight of the plate causes to angle downward, so when hitting the plate, any bullet fragments *should* angle down into the dirt.

Also I think you'll get a kick out of this. I had chosen the partition rounds, but I simply did not bring enough gun. If I had a .30+ caliber rifle, I probably would've gotten through and gotten the heart, but even if I had missed, that second hail mary shot might've stopped the bear's charge, albeit at a very uncomfortable ~25 yards.

[cekivi]

Sadly I can't open the link on my work computer. I'll have to wait until I'm home.

[Boston123]

It is almost certainly going to be a .38 Special revolver. That round is, by far, the most common revolver round worldwide. If anything else, it might be a .357, but that can also chamber .38S (the reverse is not true, however!).

In reality, contrary to what many believe, .38S is more than capable of killing wolves and deer, especially the +P and HP loads. They are in the same "category" of animal as humans. You, of course, need to have proper shot placement.

And, of course, I would love for the current hunting mechanic to be redone. Shooting animals in the head because it is "more effective" makes me cringe. Oh, and can a .303 rifle actually do what a .303 rifle does, please? .303 was used to take down elephants, for Christ's sake.

The challenge to using the rifle should be a lack of ammunition, not because it is akin to insulting the animals mother.

[deathbydanish]

On 2/3/2017 at 6:43 PM, cekivi said:

Sadly I can't open the link on my work computer. I'll have to wait until I'm home.

I just tried to open it, it looks like those links expire, the gist of it I was playing the one good Cabela's game, I loaded a .270 caliber rifle with partition rounds and tried to take a heart shot on a bear at ~75 yards. The .270 caliber round penetrates to a very comically shallow depth, the bear charges me so I wait until it is at ~25 yards so I take a hail mary shot aiming at its head, it hits the top of the head and deflects off the skull and my character gets run over forcing me to reload my game

[NorseRaven99]

I want a revolver to be added because it would add some diversity to weapons and it allows for the chance of killing a wolf or deer (or just acting in self defense) without having to carry a 4kg hunting rifle around. It would definitely be less accurate than a rifle, but cleaning, aiming, and earning skill points for it would go faster I think. Ammo ought to be scarer for the revolver than the rifle, probably because a revolver is a massive privilege to have.

[JErosion]

A .38 Special seems like a rather Canadian Revolver to have. Although with Rabbits I could see the joys of having a .22LR, good for small game, bad for everything else. Although I wouldn't mind dealing with the headache of I found a Shotgun, but I've only found a few rifle rounds, a box of 22 and half a dozen 38s

[cekivi]

On 2017-02-04 at 2:57 PM, Boston123 said:

And, of course, I would love for the current hunting mechanic to be redone. Shooting animals in the head because it is "more effective" makes me cringe. Oh, and can a .303 rifle actually do what a .303 rifle does, please? .303 was used to take down elephants, for Christ's sake.

The challenge to using the rifle should be a lack of ammunition, not because it is akin to insulting the animals mother.

You mean in real life fired rounds don't disappear after after a few meters?!?

While a .303 makes an excellent hunting gun if it had it's real life stats it could kill everything in the game out to ~100m. Beyond that aiming with iron sights becomes progressively more difficult. Now a 22LR on the other hand....

It may be better as you suggest @Boston123 if the trusty ol' .303 were both super rare with limited ammo (so you can one-shot everything) and have the weaker caliber rifle for small game/wolf defence.

[deathbydanish]

On 2/6/2017 at 2:17 PM, cekivi said:

You men in real life fired rounds don't disappear after after a few meters?!?

While a .303 makes an excellent hunting gun if it had it's real life stats it could kill everything in the game out to ~100m. Beyond that aiming with iron sights becomes progressively more difficult. Now a 22LR on the other hand....

It may be better as you suggest @Boston123 if the trusty ol' .303 were both super rare with limited ammo (so you can one-shot everything) and have the weaker caliber rifle for small game/wolf defence.

I wouldn't mind going that route in terms of the ammo, I've been getting more interested in the older military surplus rifles and a common theme I see is shooting more modern ammunition out of a 50+ year old rifle, for example I read that you are not supposed to use modern .30-06 hunting loads out of a World War II era M1 Garand due to the vast difference in pressures produced. If those Enfields being used in the game are literally from World War II, then I can believe that using more modern .303 hunting ammo in a rifle that hasn't been maintained that well (imagine a lot of pitting and rust compromising the condition of the rifle) would be able to one shot an animal at close range at the expense of blowing out the barrel or destroying the bolt.

[cekivi]

1 hour ago, deathbydanish said:

I wouldn't mind going that route in terms of the ammo, I've been getting more interested in the older military surplus rifles and a common theme I see is shooting more modern ammunition out of a 50+ year old rifle, for example I read that you are not supposed to use modern .30-06 hunting loads out of a World War II era M1 Garand due to the vast difference in pressures produced. If those Enfields being used in the game are literally from World War II, then I can believe that using more modern .303 hunting ammo in a rifle that hasn't been maintained that well (imagine a lot of pitting and rust compromising the condition of the rifle) would be able to one shot an animal at close range at the expense of blowing out the barrel or destroying the bolt.

You'd be surprised. Those old rifles were engineered to be abused so they can take a lot of punishment and still fire. And remember you can still buy low velocity rounds for most rifles if over pressure/barrel stress is an issue.

[mattyboi]

A handgun? In Canada? Surely you jest.

[cekivi]

Welcome to the forums @mattyboi

While there are handguns in Canada they're much harder to get a hold of than in the US. Mainly because if you want to legally own one you have to possess additional licenses and go through background checks prior to purchase. Long guns on the other hand (like the .22LR which I keep advocating for) are rather abundant if you're not in the major cities.

[mattyboi]

19 hours ago, cekivi said:

Welcome to the forums @mattyboi

While there are handguns in Canada they're much harder to get a hold of than in the US. Mainly because if you want to legally own one you have to possess additional licenses and go through background checks prior to purchase. Long guns on the other hand (like the .22LR which I keep advocating for) are rather abundant if you're not in the major cities.

Thank you @cekivi. I was being partially facetious; I actually went to college for a couple years in Alberta and I had plenty of friends up there who had firearms. But yeah, handguns certainly aren't as prevalent as they are down here. I think I only know one person up there who has one, and I remember she had to go through a lot of permitting to get it.

[writeright1]

To introduce a handgun, perhaps the player could encounter police cars occasionally on the island and the gun or its ammo has a chance of spawning in the car or on bodies and if we ever encounter the main community on the island, there might be a police station where we could get more ammo.

[deathbydanish]

On 2/16/2017 at 2:19 PM, cekivi said:

You'd be surprised. Those old rifles were engineered to be abused so they can take a lot of punishment and still fire. And remember you can still buy low velocity rounds for most rifles if over pressure/barrel stress is an issue.

If I had found an Enfield indoors and assuming it was well maintained, then sure, I just saw a video of two guys in Georgia going to town trying to blow up a WWII era Arisaka with progressively higher and higher pressure handloads, so its not too far fetched in that scenario to imagine a WWII Enfield taking modern ammo. But as a matter of fact, in my most recent playthrough I had found the Enfield underneath the bridge next to the dam. I'm not sure how long its been out there, but if its been a while and it's been exposed to the elements and cold, I would consider it extremely suspect since the combination of cold and humidity came into play.