Snowballs in Hell


Drifter Man

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2 hours ago, Drifter Man said:

I've never had such setup. I'm not sure how much I can help, but this is what I've found so far:

Thanks.  I did look very carefully, several times.  Then rerolled and got the same setup  (naturally, lol).  Maybe one of those other spots you mentioned had a mag lens for me.

I did make it to the lower loading screen cave and scouted it:  no warmer spot that I could find on Interloper.   I haven't had a good enough start yet to check the upper cave.

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8 minutes ago, Ruruwawa said:

Thanks.  I did look very carefully, several times.  Then rerolled and got the same setup  (naturally, lol).  Maybe one of those other spots you mentioned had a mag lens for me.

I did make it to the lower loading screen cave and scouted it:  no warmer spot that I could find on Interloper.   I haven't had a good enough start yet to check the upper cave.

That's really odd. I could swear I've always had one of hacksaw, hammer or lens in the Mountaineer's Hut or in the fishing hut nearby.

I've just been to the upper cave and it indeed has a warmer section. It is by about 6°C warmer than the rest, enough to survive in even in poor clothes.

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Snowball 30 just died during a reality check on the snow shelter idea and on my plan as a whole.

First, getting the deer skins turned out to be a massive undertaking. It took me about 4 days to skin just two deer (one stolen on the lake, plus one pre-spawned carcass at the Wing). Then I healed and collected some firewood, plus made a trip to the Engine to get clothes from the container. I reached the last step below the summit on Day 8 and built a snow shelter. Problem #1: The game is very, very particular about where it allows you to build one. There is a little cave with some firewood and rope below the summit, which literally beckons you to settle down there. Alas - no way to build a shelter in this place, for no obvious reason. Eventually I returned to the cave and built it at the entrance, although there was no protected position for a fire.

Problem #2: It just isn't warm enough. Having waited the night out in the cave, I slipped into the shelter on the next day with 11 hours of daylight left, now completely exhausted. Felt temperature inside: -11°C. At that moment I realized I was dead.

Conclusions:

  1. Forget about the skins and go to the summit as soon as you can. It will be too cold later on.
  2. Better timing is needed. It took me about 5 hours to get from Mountaineer's Hut to the place under the summit. Then about 2 hours to make fire, tear clothes and build the shelter. At that point I want to have about 8 hours of daylight left so that I can rest in the shelter and conquer the summit during the night. Next time I must set out with 2-3 hours of darkness left, whether it's cold or not.
  3. The shelter won't let you survive later in the game. Mountaineer's Hut is the only option.
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4 hours ago, Drifter Man said:

The shelter won't let you survive later in the game. Mountaineer's Hut is the only option

This is because of the sheltered fire, right?  Seems like you'll be back to gathering wood for rest/healing again.  

Oh, for a bedroll.

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On 1/13/2017 at 4:45 AM, Ruruwawa said:

This is because of the sheltered fire, right?  Seems like you'll be back to gathering wood for rest/healing again.  

Oh, for a bedroll.

I can't say I was very logical in that conclusion, and that I was too early to give up, fall asleep and die. I checked again:

  • Mountaineer's Hut gives +10°C on air temperature, the bed gives additional +5°C. Total +15°C.
  • Snow shelter gives +15°C on air temperature, plus additional 3°C when you sleep. Total +18°C.

Therefore, snow shelter is better than the Hut. If I felt -11°C inside the shelter (not sleeping) with, say, +4°C bonus from clothes, then there was outside air temperature -30°C. At 11 hours of daylight left it was a cold morning, but I often go to bed in the Hut with 9-8 hours of daylight left, burning fire until then. Maybe if I had waited for a little longer, I would have survived. In fact, I would have thrived.

I checked how the temperature bar works. 100% of the bar is fully depleted in ca 30 in-game minutes if the felt temperature is -15°C. Let's say the bar decreases at the rate 0.222% / 1°C / minute. Then, for different felt temperatures, the temperature bar takes the following time to run out:

  • -15°C... 30 min
  • -14°C ... 32 min
  • -13°C ... 35 min
  • -12°C ... 38 min
  • -11°C ... 41 min
  • -10°C ... 45 min
  • -9°C ... 50 min
  • -8°C ... 56 min
  • -7°C ... 1 h 4 min
  • -6°C ... 1 h 15 min
  • -5°C ... 1 h 30 min
  • -4°C ... 1 h 53 min
  • -3°C ... 2 h 30 min
  • -2°C ... 3 h 45 min
  • -1°C ... 7 h 30 min

Second assumption: The normal rate at which air temperature changes during the day between 13 and 5 hours of daylight left is something like 2-3°C per hour (can vary for sure). Let's take 2.5°C / per hour for example. If I went to sleep in the shelter at felt -11°C, with the sleeping bonus I had -8°C. Under these circumstances, I began freezing after about one hour and, since my condition was at 40%, I was dead two hours later, just as the felt temperature was about to return to positive levels.

melting_snowballs.png

Had I gone to sleep at felt -9°C (= -6°C with the additional bonus), just one hour later, I would have nearly missed the bottom of the temperature bar 2.5 hours later, and I'd be back at full temperature bar after 6 hours of sleep. With the help of tea, which I drank before falling asleep, I would have recovered to nearly 80% and been fit to continue to the summit.

Snowball 31 will be smarter than Snowball 30!

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It's more like +1-1.5C per hour of daylight (peaking at 5) not 2-3. But that is just from personal observation, so maybe I am wrong.

Also to note to anyone following along: the temperature bar drains much faster on Interloper then on Stalker/Voyageur at the same 'Feels Like' (Pilgrim is about half the speed of Voyageur/Stalker).

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23 minutes ago, Troxism said:

It's more like +1-1.5C per hour of daylight (peaking at 5) not 2-3. But that is just from personal observation, so maybe I am wrong.

Also to note to anyone following along: the temperature bar drains much faster on Interloper then on Stalker/Voyageur at the same 'Feels Like' (Pilgrim is about half the speed of Voyageur/Stalker).

I confirm that air temperature bottoms at 13 and peaks at 5 hours of daylight. I observed values about -30°C in the morning and -10°C in the afternoon, but that was on Voyageur. I have to check again.

I should add a disclaimer here: Use my conclusions at your own risk :) They yet have to be field-tested.

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@Drifter Man Good data and really excellent visualization.  Thanks for sharing!

The thing about exhaustion, it's much "cheaper", condition-wise, than freezing.  1/hr (just like starving).   So on a cold day you could wait until tomorrow for better sleeping weather, if your condition was otherwise good.

 

39 minutes ago, Timber Wolf said:

I think I may have found something you will be interested in......

if this is the spot I think it is....

 

"Bear" style cave on Andre's Peak?  The temp bonus you mention is not the "back half" bonus of the large open caves, just the "no windchill" bonus all caves enjoy.  Still, looks like a good spot, if it doesn't cost too much condition to get to food and fuel spots.  I use a similar setup in FM, works great.

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That's the place @Ruruwawa

2 minutes ago, Ruruwawa said:

"Bear" style cave on Andre's Peak?  The temp bonus you mention is not the "back half" bonus of the large open caves, just the "no windchill" bonus all caves enjoy.  Still, looks like a good spot, if it doesn't cost too much condition to get to food and fuel spots.

You're right.  I was just figuring that out.  That the cave bonus is less on Interloper, seems to be only 2 C.  But the fire should be very protected.  And the indoor cave is nearby.

 

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11 hours ago, Ruruwawa said:

The thing about exhaustion, it's much "cheaper", condition-wise, than freezing.  1/hr (just like starving).   So on a cold day you could wait until tomorrow for better sleeping weather, if your condition was otherwise good.

Subjectively, I think it goes faster than starvation. I remember that my early snowballs that exhausted themselves from climbing tried to start a fire in low condition to avoid hypothermia but suffered serious loss of condition from exhaustion while warming up. But in my situation, I could definitely have waited for 1-2 more hours.

11 hours ago, Timber Wolf said:

I think I may have found something you will be interested in......

Thanks! But I've actually found the perfect place for a shelter. I know that your curiosity would get the better of you (as it did of me), so I won't post it here for now. I want you to have the same big grin on your face like I had when I found out :)

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16 hours ago, Drifter Man said:

I checked how the temperature bar works. 100% of the bar is fully depleted in ca 30 in-game minutes if the felt temperature is -15°C. Let's say the bar decreases at the rate 0.222% / 1°C / minute. Then, for different felt temperatures, the temperature bar takes the following time to run out:

  • -15°C... 30 min
  • -14°C ... 32 min
  • -13°C ... 35 min
  • -12°C ... 38 min
  • -11°C ... 41 min
  • -10°C ... 45 min
  • -9°C ... 50 min
  • -8°C ... 56 min
  • -7°C ... 1 h 4 min
  • -6°C ... 1 h 15 min
  • -5°C ... 1 h 30 min
  • -4°C ... 1 h 53 min
  • -3°C ... 2 h 30 min
  • -2°C ... 3 h 45 min
  • -1°C ... 7 h 30 min

If these numbers are accurate (or close to accurate), then it points to some fairly serious exploit opportunities. (Maybe such exploits are common knowledge, but I hadn't thought of it until seeing this!)

Is condition loss from freezing constant, regardless of felt temperature below zero, or does it drain faster the colder you are?

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22 minutes ago, Pillock said:

If these numbers are accurate (or close to accurate), then it points to some fairly serious exploit opportunities. (Maybe such exploits are common knowledge, but I hadn't thought of it until seeing this!)

Is condition loss from freezing constant, regardless of felt temperature below zero, or does it drain faster the colder you are?

It is constant (20% per hour, I think), regardless of felt temperature. -1°C and -60°C are the same in this respect. That's one thing that could be criticized, once I start freezing I'm not motivated to e.g. seek shelter from the wind unless it brings me to positive temperatures.

After hypothermia kicks in (2 hours of freezing), the rate of condition loss is doubled. At least that's how it worked last time I checked.

Hmmm ... understanding the mechanic can be helpful, but I don't see any potential for an exploit.

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31 minutes ago, Drifter Man said:

It is constant (20% per hour, I think), regardless of felt temperature. -1°C and -60°C are the same in this respect. That's one thing that could be criticized, once I start freezing I'm not motivated to e.g. seek shelter from the wind unless it brings me to positive temperatures.

After hypothermia kicks in (2 hours of freezing), the rate of condition loss is doubled. At least that's how it worked last time I checked.

Hmmm ... understanding the mechanic can be helpful, but I don't see any potential for an exploit.

In terms of clothes, really. It's not a major one unless you're carrying a lot of weight.

But it appears that clothing warmth bonus becomes less and less important the colder it gets. Which is pretty illogical. For example, if it feels like -10° when you're fully togged up, and shedding clothes would lose you 5° felt temperature, you might as well do it, since you're only losing 15 minutes in-game (which is only a matter of seconds real time?), while gaining the extra weight capacity and also saving your clothes' condition. All you need is a bare minimum to prevent frostbite.

Clothing warmth only appears to matter very much when the felt temperature is closer to 0, since that gains you several hours of non-freezing. And again, if you are already freezing, you're actually better off shedding clothes to save weight and clothing condition, which is totally counter-intuitive!

Basically, you need a clothing inventory that allows you to tip the felt-temperature balance above 0 when you're in your cave or sleeping, so that you can warm up. But gaining a few degrees warmth when it's -10° or lower anyway is a total waste! I think it might mean you can harvest more cloth for building shelters, perhaps, since the warmth gain you get from them is massively more useful than wearing that cloth as clothing.

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5 hours ago, Drifter Man said:

Subjectively, I think it goes faster than starvation. I remember that my early snowballs that exhausted themselves from climbing tried to start a fire in low condition to avoid hypothermia but suffered serious loss of condition from exhaustion while warming up. But in my situation, I could definitely have waited for 1-2 more hours.

Thanks! But I've actually found the perfect place for a shelter. I know that your curiosity would get the better of you (as it did of me), so I won't post it here for now. I want you to have the same big grin on your face like I had when I found out :)

but, but, we want to know now! (wails piteously)

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2 hours ago, romerabr said:

There is one thing that can help you.

Since TWM have few loading areas, the sticks and wood limbs don't respawn like in others areas, you need to move far away from the area of your base or save and reload the game to trigger the respawn. 

That's right, I'm reloading regularly because of that.

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Snowball 31 had a bad start, bad loot and blizzard on the first day. He died after a day and half when a wolf unexpectedly showed up at the rabbit run between the Mountaineer's Hut and the Landing Gear. Snowball 32 had a great start, concluded the first day at 100% and well supplied. He found great loot at the Engine - some good clothes and a lot of spares to be turned into cloth. The wolf guarding the Engine spotted him, but Snowball 32 thought he had enough head start to escape. After a few meters he sprained an ankle. End of story.

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