Snowballs in Hell


Drifter Man

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On Thursday, July 06, 2017 at 7:35 AM, JAFO said:

To which I would add, I've noticed that 6kg of cooked venison will light up one scent bar. As @Drifter Man has mentioned earlier, even though it doesn't light up a scent bar, 5kg of cooked venison still gets a wolf's attention pretty well. So it seems logical to assume a linear progression of "attractiveness" based on the amount of cooked meat you're carrying. In which case, an acceptable threshold to carry might be 2kg of cooked meat at a time. Maybe 3kg if you're feeling adventurous, or don't have far to go. I've seen it mentioned a few times in the past year or so, that being upwind of a wolf will definitely increase their detection range too, so wind direction is also worth taking into account.

 

 

It's another lame poorly implemented mechanic. It should not be based on number of individual pieces, but total mass or volume of scented items.

I often cancel meat eating near the end to save small morsels of meat as bait. Six 0.06 kilograms of meat should not create the exact same level of scent attraction as 6 whole kilograms of meat, yet it does in game.

It shouldn't be based on x number of x items. It should be based on total weight of raw, or cooked, or uncured items.

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2 minutes ago, JoE Smash said:

Six 0.06 kilograms of meat should not create the exact same level of scent attraction as 6 whole kilograms of meat, yet it does in game.

Damn.. I wondered about that, but hadn't checked. Thanks for investigating.

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7 minutes ago, JAFO said:

Damn.. I wondered about that, but hadn't checked. Thanks for investigating.

No problem, m8. I wasn't really trying to investigate, it kind of happened by accident while fiddling with my meat supply.

As it stands now, due to the six piece mechanic of scent and attracting wolves, I figure you get the most bang for your buck by carrying five pieces of big cooked salmon. No scent bar even though with salmon you could be hauling 15 kilos of meat...

I haven't verified this is the case officially as I don't have 5 big pieces of salmon currently....but I think it might work as I stated....

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27 minutes ago, JoE Smash said:

I figure you get the most bang for your buck by carrying five pieces of big cooked salmon. No scent bar even though with salmon you could be hauling 15 kilos of meat...

No scent bar doesn't mean you're not a wolf-magnet.. just that you don't stink enough to light up a bar. I'd recommend carrying only 2 pieces.

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1 minute ago, JAFO said:

No scent bar doesn't mean you're not a wolf-magnet.. just that you don't stink enough to light up a bar. I'd recommend carrying only 2 pieces.

I was just trying to further show the problems with the current mechanic. Six pieces equal the first scent bar perriod regardless of meat weight. So five little pieces of unfinished meat don't produce a scent bar, neither will 5 pieces of coho salmon each weighing much over 1 kilo. So you could carry five 3-5 kilo pieces of salmon and it treats it the same as five tiny 0.06 kilos of bait

 

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So much fascinating information turns up here over the few days I was away!

On 05/07/2017 at 9:52 PM, Ruruwawa said:

That's what I'm saying.  It's a game, not a reality simulator, and the wind blowing at you to force you out of your sheltered spot is one of the challenges built into the game.

It is evil wind then... I once said that Nature in TLD is not out to kill you, it just is there and you have to adapt. Apparently I was wrong. Thanks for sharing!

On 06/07/2017 at 8:39 PM, JAFO said:

From this, I gather that you're not aware that you can harvest tools (quality or simple), for 3 scrap metal.

That's right, I wasn't aware of that. Thanks!

On 10/07/2017 at 1:59 PM, Troxism said:

Do not think the fire duration bonus for being outdoors is based on location, it seems to have to do with temperature change around the fire (which basically means time) combined with fire bonus of the fire itself up to some kind of cap, but I have never done a detailed analysis to figure out exactly what is going on. Sometimes you get a huge bonus in a fishing hut, sometimes you get almost nothing. Sometimes I've even gotten the bonus in the Mountaineer's Hut fireplace, but have been unable to consistently replicate this. Idk, it's probably the least known mechanic in this game overall (and most people not knowing about it is why they tend to struggle with cabin fever; if you know about it you realise you should make every fire outdoors anyways which pretty much solves Cabin Fever before it starts in most cases). Most people just never pay attention to fire duration and details of that sort.

That explains why the fire duration bonus is inconsistent between fires... this information could be key to Snowball survival. I'll investigate on a lower difficulty level and see if I can find any patterns.

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I tried to make various fires in the fireplace, outside MH, and in the ice fishing hut on Crystal Lake, measuring the duration bonus. I found no bonus in the fireplace (but I could swear I once measured a small 10% bonus there) and the outdoor fire was equivalent to the fishing hut. There was no dependence on the size of the fire, the temperature it was giving away, or the fuel used. But I've found a consistent dependence on the air temperature (that is, on the air temperature away from the fire).

The data is for a Voyageur game 10-12 days old. I fitted it with a 2nd degree polynomial but I could use some more low-temperature data points to be confident about the fit - and I might not be able to get such data in Voyageur. Can anybody check in a long interloper game what the bonus is when air temperature is -40°C or lower? Method:

  • start a fire
  • stoke it up to a few hours
  • wait for say 3 H of fire remaining (exact hours)
  • record journal time and air temperature away from the fire
  • wait for 2 H of fire remaining (i.e. 1 hour of nominal fire duration later according to the UI)
  • again record journal time and air temperature away from the fire
  • report data here :)

The duration bonus varies throughout the duration of the fire (i.e. different amount of in-game time passes when the fire is reduced say from 3H to 2H and then from 2H to 1H). It also jumps up during a blizzard.

TLD_fire.png

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3 hours ago, Drifter Man said:

I tried to make various fires in the fireplace, outside MH, and in the ice fishing hut on Crystal Lake, measuring the duration bonus.

Very interesting post!  Based on player comments I think there may be a couple more factors affecting outdoor fire duration.

@selfless said this on reddit:

Quote

All fires on the long dark change when background temperatures change. Indoors this is not noticeable as the background temps are very stable. Outdoors can see wild shifts in temperature in just a few hours.

What happens is: when temperature goes up, fire duration goes up too. This apparent bug is actually intentional. Someone thought fire efficiency should vary based on how hard it the fire was "working". Then someone else decided the duration shouldn't go down when the world got colder cuz everyone would freeze to death in their sleep. Wise.

So unfortunately the effect is as variable as the weather. You could guess at it but you could be wrong. Big takeaway: put wood on a fire when the weather is coldest to maximize its effect on duration.

Also on reddit, @panic4u said this about making a fire that lasted 1000 hours (76 days!):

Quote

Fishing Hut fires burn 2x as long as you do not go indoors or leave the map. So 12 hours worth of sticks fuels your fire for 24 hours. I used a bedroll and slept in the toasty Fishing Hut for 76 days because when you sleep indoors the fire will no longer have the 2x bonus.

Just guessing here since I haven't tested it myself, but I don't think entering the Mountaineer's Hut would kill the bonus since, like a fishing hut, the world doesn't unload.  Sleeping in the mountaineer's hut might reset it, however.

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16 hours ago, Ruruwawa said:

All fires on the long dark change when background temperatures change. Indoors this is not noticeable as the background temps are very stable. Outdoors can see wild shifts in temperature in just a few hours.

What happens is: when temperature goes up, fire duration goes up too. This apparent bug is actually intentional. Someone thought fire efficiency should vary based on how hard it the fire was "working". Then someone else decided the duration shouldn't go down when the world got colder cuz everyone would freeze to death in their sleep. Wise.

So unfortunately the effect is as variable as the weather. You could guess at it but you could be wrong. Big takeaway: put wood on a fire when the weather is coldest to maximize its effect on duration.

I can confirm this trend except that I don't think it matters when you put wood on the fire. Whenever it is cold, the fire will consume the fuel at a slower rate, regardless of when exactly it was added to it.

16 hours ago, Ruruwawa said:

Just guessing here since I haven't tested it myself, but I don't think entering the Mountaineer's Hut would kill the bonus since, like a fishing hut, the world doesn't unload.  Sleeping in the mountaineer's hut might reset it, however.

I didn't check just being in the Mountaineer's Hut, but while sleeping there, the fire in the fishing hut burned at its nominal rate of 1 hour per 1 hour, i.e. without bonus. The fire may have defaulted to no bonus or accepted air temperature in the Mountaineer's Hut as input for its calculation. It is too warm to tell.

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4 hours ago, Drifter Man said:

The fire may have defaulted to no bonus or accepted air temperature in the Mountaineer's Hut as input for its calculation. It is too warm to tell.

This might be the key point.  Does the calculation use the 'native' air temp at the player's current location (i.e., the temp if there was no fire), even when the player is far away from the fire?

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22 hours ago, Ruruwawa said:

This might be the key point.  Does the calculation use the 'native' air temp at the player's current location (i.e., the temp if there was no fire), even when the player is far away from the fire?

Yes, that's the one thing I couldn't figure out from the test. In any case the bonus didn't count while I slept.

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  • Snowball 43: Started with a hammer. Found mag lens in the cave under the Summit. No hacksaw at the Summit. Aborted.
  • Snowball 44: Slowed down by blizzard during Phase 1, lost way on the way home due to poor visibility. Fell off a cliff and died shortly afterwards.
  • Snowball 45: Killed by a wolf on Day 1 before reaching Mountaineer's Hut.
  • Snowball 46: Started with a hammer. Found mag lens in the cave under the Summit. No hacksaw at the Summit. Aborted.

After this I again decided to abort all Snowballs that don't get the hacksaw at the start. It's just too frustrating to make your way up to the Summit, only to find out there's no way to open the containers.

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1 hour ago, Drifter Man said:

After this I again decided to abort all Snowballs that don't get the hacksaw at the start. It's just too frustrating to make your way up to the Summit, only to find out there's no way to open the containers.

The start with a magnifier under the bed in MH has a hacksaw at the summit.  So it's a choice between hammer or magnifier.  I personally really like the magnifier start if I'm moving to a different region, since the hammer is 2kg I won't need until I reach DP or FM and I can pick one up along the way.

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Snowball 47: a promising Snowball, terminated by a wolf again (fortunately only on Day 5 or so).

It's happening over and over. The wolf is hidden behind some small hill, feasting on a rabbit or a deer, and when you stumble upon it, it just goes straight at you. No time to do anything. I had a torch in hand, it had zero effect. Maybe if I had the flare pistol instead, I would have had two seconds to take aim :(

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11 minutes ago, Drifter Man said:

Snowball 47: a promising Snowball, terminated by a wolf again (fortunately only on Day 5 or so).

It's happening over and over. The wolf is hidden behind some small hill, feasting on a rabbit or a deer, and when you stumble upon it, it just goes straight at you. No time to do anything. I had a torch in hand, it had zero effect. Maybe if I had the flare pistol instead, I would have had two seconds to take aim :(

Audio cues are how I prevent this.  I play with headphones on, and stop and listen to every maybe-wolf (and maybe-bear) sound.  it's extra challenging in early Interloper because of the condition you pay, but it beats dying.  

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12 hours ago, Ruruwawa said:

Audio cues are how I prevent this.  I play with headphones on, and stop and listen to every maybe-wolf (and maybe-bear) sound.  it's extra challenging in early Interloper because of the condition you pay, but it beats dying.

Yes, at that distance I should have heard it. I have player voice and music switched off so that I can pause and listen. Next time though I will just have the flare pistol ready. It's the only thing that can stop a wolf (or bear) coming straight at you.

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2 minutes ago, Drifter Man said:

Yes, at that distance I should have heard it. I have player voice and music switched off so that I can pause and listen.

That's a start.. but try it with headphones. Ones with 5.1 or 7.1 surround, if at all possible. You won't believe the difference it makes.

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6 hours ago, JAFO said:

That's a start.. but try it with headphones. Ones with 5.1 or 7.1 surround, if at all possible. You won't believe the difference it makes.

I'm not really willing to invest in that (my laptop doesn't even have a graphics card), but I'll keep that in mind for the future!

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19 hours ago, Drifter Man said:

Snowball 47: a promising Snowball, terminated by a wolf again (fortunately only on Day 5 or so).

And you know what? Snowball 47 survived.

Out of frustration, I quit the game after the wolf fight (which I actually won, bare-handed). Today I returned to it and checked my status: 11% condition left, but no blood loss! I downed two rosehip teas to fix sprained limbs and climbed back up to the shelf under the Summit. After a dose of herbal tea and a good night's sleep, I'm back to 51%. The first Snowball to have survived a wolf struggle.

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2 hours ago, Drifter Man said:

The first Snowball to have survived a wolf struggle.

That definitely deserves a toast! <raises a glass of Stone's Green Ginger Wine to Snowball 47>

(re what I said about headphones above.. even a cheap pair will be an improvement over your laptop's speakers.. [I play on a laptop too] heck, even earbuds from a phone will help)

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2 hours ago, JAFO said:

That definitely deserves a toast! <raises a glass of Stone's Green Ginger Wine to Snowball 47>

Indeed! This day made me stop thinking of wolf death as of an inevitability. Now that I have the hammer, and after @Timber Wolf's test showed that a hammer-wielding survivor has a good chance against a wolf (hopefully in Interloper too), I'm going to sacrifice one piece of cloth to produce bandages. Who knows...

Snowball 47 / Day 9

The Snowball who came back from the dead is now in Mountaineer's Hut. I ended Phase 2 early. Snowballs 41 and 42 both found two cured deer hides in the Tail Section and there was a ravaged deer carcass on the shelf under the Summit, so it made sense for them to wait there for the guts and hides to cure, then return to the Mountaineer's Hut and craft deerskin pants. Snowball 47 got only one cured deer hide and there was no carcass. Therefore, waiting under the Summit for the end of the curing process of rabbit pelts and guts would mean putting off the search for the two additional deer hides required, and a delayed completion of the deerskin pants. Travelling with partially cured guts earned me a level-2 scent meter: the way to the Mountaineer's Hut cost me three flare shells. However, I returned safely and in good condition, ready to start hunting for deer hides and more guts.

  • Firestarting: 47 matches, firestriker at 76%, 3 bottles of accelerant.
  • Medical: 12 pills of antibiotics, 1 stim, 5 cups of rosehip tea, 39 rosehip buds, 36 reishi mushrooms
  • Clothes: Sweatshirt (82%), thin wool sweater (80%), 2 ski jackets (30%, 20%), 2 pairs of jeans (34%, 29%), cotton socks (48%), wool socks (51% plus a reserve pair at 27% that's going into cloth anyway), cotton toque (68%), wool toque (45%), thermal underwear (32%), fleece mittens (58%). Bonus is poor at +6°C / +2°C. The ski jackets and jeans took a severe beating in the wolf fight, but I suppose that's a small price to pay. I'm thinking about salvaging one jacket since I'm grateful for each degree of temperature bonus I can get at this point.
  • Food: Three boxes of salty crackers, 35 cattail stalks, 12 cups' worth of tea and 7 cups' worth of coffee.
  • Tools: Flare pistol with 8 flares, hacksaw (32%), heavy hammer (76%), sewing kit (95%), quality tools.
  • Material: 7 cloth, 7 pieces of leather, 1 cured deer hide, 3 cured rabbit pelts (+1 curing), 3 guts (all curing), 4 scrap metal, also one piece of fir firewood put aside in case I need to repair the hammer.
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4 hours ago, JAFO said:

even earbuds from a phone will help

I play with $5 earbuds most of the time.  I have better headphones too, but I prefer the lightweight feel of the earbuds and a friend pointed me to a brand that is surprisingly comfortable for me.  It makes a huge difference in early wolf detection.  

6 hours ago, Drifter Man said:

The first Snowball to have survived a wolf struggle.

Yay!  Hammer is a pretty good "scare wolf off before it can damage you" tool in my experience.

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Snowball 47 / Day 13

It has become a snowball rule that the first deer kill is always easy. I drove the deer into the wolf on the lake and approached the kill. The wolf was facing me rather being back to me as I thought, so it spotted me from a distance and charged. I could have retreated into the fishing hut but I wanted an extra pair of guts and free rein on the lake, so I waited until it was very close and fired a flare shell into its head. The wolf dropped dead on the spot. Over the next two days, I processed the deer (8 kg venison, hide, 2 guts) and the wolf (6 kg wolf meat, 2 guts). I'm taking my chances with parasites.

Following that I cleared all cattails on this side of Crystal Lake, especially those that can be tricky when the wolf is around. Mother Nature threw several consecutive blizzards at me but I managed to get through at the cost of considerable portion of my firewood reserves. I learned to spend blizzards in the fishing hut if possible, for better utilization of sticks.

I finished the rabbitskin mitts (on Day 12, in record time) and skinned a ravaged deer carcass on the lake overlook for a third deer hide. With +8°C temperature bonus I can sleep more safely in Mountaineer's Hut. Nevertheless, those were difficult days, I couldn't always sleep the full 10-hour stretches and I was forced to live on condition debt. Right now my condition is 83% in the morning.

  • Firestarting: 47 matches, firestriker at 62%, 2 bottles of accelerant.
  • Medical: 12 pills of antibiotics, 1 stim, 6 cups of rosehip tea, 39 rosehip buds, 26 reishi mushrooms EDIT: also 2 bandages, 1 OMB dressing
  • Clothes: Sweatshirt (76%), thin wool sweater (78%), 2 ski jackets (28%, 18%), 2 pairs of jeans (29%, 24%), cotton socks (33%), wool socks (96%), cotton toque (57%), wool toque (40%), thermal underwear (25%), rabbitskin mitts (100%), EDIT: also trail boots (89%). Bonus is at +8°C / +4°C.
  • Food: 6.7 kg venison, 3.0 kg wolf, 1.1 kg rabbit, three boxes of salty crackers, 70 cattail stalks, 12 herbal tea and 6 coffee.
  • Tools: Flare pistol with 7 flare shells, hacksaw (30%), heavy hammer (76%), sewing kit (65%), quality tools, 1 flare.
  • Material: 5 cloth (+2 cloth in clothes awaiting scrapping), 7 leather, 3 deer hides (1 cured + 2 curing), 7 guts (all curing), 4 scrap metal, 1 fir firewood.
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