Lack of logic is hurting the gameplay


dbldrew

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This game has such potential to be epic. But it seems like every balance decision made is completely illogical and just is slowly turning it into just an ho-hum game.

 

Here is just a few illogical game mechanics that really make me scratch my head wondering why..

 

Harvesting ½ frozen deer with my bare hands

No need for explanation for this one

 

Harvesting rabbits in the freezing cold

Pick it up and bring it inside?

 

Magic warm houses

 

Cabin fever

so i'm completely exhausted, low health and my only option is to sleep in the car outside my house.. in a blizzard? (interloper, no bedroll)

 

Ax and knife lifespan.

My brother still has my grandfathers knife from ww2 but knives are ruined after a few days of use?

 

Fires lack of heat

I need a 4-5hour fire to warm it above freezing, in a sheltered area?

 

Crafting tools

so I can craft a fishing hook out of scrap metal, but no knife or arrowhead?

 

Crouch walking makes you invisible to wildlife?

 

Can only shoot a bow standing up?

 

Cant get a full nights sleep unless i'm completely exhausted even if im low on health?

 

Cant start a fire in the middle of a mine shaft?

 

I understand they said that game balance comes first.. but there is no reason that you cant have both game balance and logic.

 

The game is fun.. but it could be so much better if some simple things where changed to make sense

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I somewhat agree with a few of the things you mentioned but what you need to remember is that gameplay balancing decisions are not predicated on realism but on what makes fun gameplay. When people try to apply 'realism' and 'logic' to the game it's generally only for the purpose of increasing the power the player has. For example if you're in game walking and a blizzard catches you and your temp drops down to freezing realistically you should become disoriented and lose energy and die. The game abstracts that into condition (and is far to generous with it IMO), but the game doesn't kill you because it wouldn't be fun to randomly die from something you have little control over.

Some of the things here are also just maybe too much work for the game. Like implementing a real stealth/hunting/tracking system.

Other things are things that realistically you couldn't do (like starting a fire in the middle of a mineshaft) because you would kill yourself (carbon monoxide poisoning). Instead of implementing a CO mechanic they just disallow indoor fires.

Making axes and knives super durable would make the game less fun IMO because you would just need to find one and you're set for life.

Magic warm houses I agree with you. I think this is a good place for some coding work to simulate warming and cooling houses.

Being able to pick up rabbits or even quarter a deer and bring it someplace safe would also be a great feature IMO.

In regards to cabin fever and 'rest as a resource' I feel like these are two areas where the design team just made a mistake and should probably just delete those features. IMO neither adds much fun or interesting to the game and just leads to very unnatural feeling behavior.

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I too agree with both of you on your points mostly. Cabin fever is really just a mechanism to get folks outside playing (like Pokémon Go lol) Stop hiding inside for days to get your days survived totals up. I think anyhow is where they were heading with that. Axes and knives durability just needs to be the way it is or you will have one and never need another for sure. Not crafting arrow heads etc by being forced to go to the forge is unrealistic. Would not be great arrowheads and such but yeah, that one annoyed me at the start and still does. When I start a new game I now try to start in DP so I can craft a couple dozen and never need to go back.

The rabbits thing escapes me, who would risk frostbite to cut up something ya need 3 of to survive every day. No one.

More items to craft like a rabbit hat, or slippers etc I keep suggesting, as do others, and I am sure they are working on it.  

All in all one of the best and most captivating games I have ever spent money on.

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3 hours ago, dbldrew said:

every balance decision made is completely illogical

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But you didn't say anything about gameplay balance? All i see are things you don't like, a request to change it by using the "realism-argument" to make it less challenging, easier. Or what do you think happens if you could craft a knife out of scrapmetal or just have to use 3 sticks to have a warmth-protection from blizzards? And where is the connection to logic?

Please tell us why these things have been added to the game, how it was before without them, what exactly the problem (for gameplay and balance) is and how, in that regard, your suggestion would solve the problem without creating new ones.

 

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1 hour ago, MueckE said:

But you didn't say anything about gameplay balance? All i see are things you don't like, a request to change it by using the "realism-argument" to make it less challenging, easier. Or what do you think happens if you could craft a knife out of scrapmetal or just have to use 3 sticks to have a warmth-protection from blizzards? And where is the connection to logic?

Please tell us why these things have been added to the game, how it was before without them, what exactly the problem (for gameplay and balance) is and how, in that regard, your suggestion would solve the problem without creating new ones.

 

actually most of the time i want it harder not easier. having to heat houses is not going to make it easier.

Not being able to harvest deer by my bare hands does not make it easier.

Im not saying 3 sticks should protect me from a blizzard but if im in cover and have a fire going it should provide heat.. it shouldn’t take 4-5 hours worth of wood to warm up.. a small campfire with ~15min worth of wood burns at about 1500 deg.. want to balance it on game play? make starting fires harder, or warming up take longer.. you now have balanced it, game play is the same and now the fire is logical

Ax and knife logevity.. the argument is this will hurt game play because you dont have to look for more.. well a simple solution is just add more content and resources for you to look for.. problem solved and now its back to being logical..

crafting knives and ax.. maybe the solution here is homemade tools dont have very good longevity (just like current tools now) and if you forge or find one the durability is much much longer like it should be.. Quality hatchets and hunting knives can be more rare. And forged tools can be med durability


 

Cabin fever, not being able to sleep inside in the middle of winter is just dumb plain and simple. First off why should anyone care how someone chooses to play? Its idiotic BUT I guess if you want to add in cabin fever then maybe make sleep increase you health slower if you have cabin fever? Or just take it out all together would be the best option.. (or get rid of magic warm houses would get people outdoors)

Fires in mines, if I can walk around with a burning branch there should be no reason to not be able to light another stick..


 

 

 

 

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An observation about fires ( I heat my house with wood): fires don't really put out their full heat potential until they've burnt a while & built up a good bed of hot coals.  To build a fire that heated well immediately the fire would have to be considerably larger and therefore longer lasting.  I agree with the mechanic as is.

Tools--true, not very logical to have them wear out as fast as they do in game.  Maybe a better solution would be this: all tools have a condition rating.  It decreases with use, but only very slowly.  Every time you use a tool it has a chance to break, the lower the condition the greater the chance it will.  Additionally, tools that require sharpening (hatchet, knife, axe if/when they add one) have a second rating: sharpness, which is maintained with whetstones as is done with condition now. (btw a whetstone could have "condition" that works as above)  Each tool starts with a random "sharpness" when found.  The lower the "sharpness" of a hatchet, knife, ect. the less effective it is--a hatchet takes longer to harvest firewood, a knife takes longer to harvest carcasses and is less effective against wolf attacks, ect.

 

Lighting sticks--probably shouldn't be possible.  When you take a brand out of a fire it burns because it's already been in the campfire a while.  Lighting a stick with a match would be much harder, if not impossible.

 

"Magic" warm houses--maybe the temperature inside shouldn't be above what is outside, or an average of the last several hours anyway.  That being said, it still gets you out of the wind.  Also if you do start a fire indoors it should be much more effective at raising the temp than it would be outdoors since the heat doesn't escape, and it would take a while for the house to get cold again--longer than it does in game now imo.  This would make houses with fireplaces superior resting spots to those without.

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10 hours ago, sarudak said:

In regards to cabin fever and 'rest as a resource' I feel like these are two areas where the design team just made a mistake and should probably just delete those features. IMO neither adds much fun or interesting to the game and just leads to very unnatural feeling behavior.

Yep, pretty much my sentiments. You can be restless being kept inside all day and there should certainly be a condition gain penalty the longer you're "trapped" inside but people on the forums seem to not care for this feature as presently implemented.

And before I forget, welcome to the forums @Tsayers1068! I think I may have forgotten to say hi ^_^

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Great points.

And whole "for gameplay/fun sake" counterargument is completely false. Practically all those features can be balanced out thru other means, yet devs prefer to stick to those flawed ones.

Maybe it will be fixed in the future, maybe it wont. But as of right now, most of those things are both illogical and inconsistent. Like parasites.

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10 hours ago, dbldrew said:

Im not saying 3 sticks should protect me from a blizzard but if im in cover and have a fire going it should provide heat.. it shouldn’t take 4-5 hours worth of wood to warm up.. a small campfire with ~15min worth of wood burns at about 1500 deg.. want to balance it on game play? make starting fires harder, or warming up take longer.. you now have balanced it, game play is the same and now the fire is logical

I am still not convinced. Now please tell me exactly why "it shouldn't take 4-5 hours worth of wood to warm up" - realism? My point is, do you think the devs don't know how long a camp fire can burn in reallife? So there is a reason why it is like it is in the game. This reason has something to do with gameplay, not realism and as long you don't show me the knowledge about gameplay reasons i assume you don't care at all. That's still fine and ofc you can point out things you don't like in the game. Although it isn't less important to name things you don't like than talking pecisely about specific gameplay features, it creates the illusion of an argument where there is none. 

Balnacing doesn't mean do change something to get what you want. Every change you make will effect all other mechanics/features, the gameplay and maybe even the character of the game and the whole idea of it.

Let's say you can't harvest a half frozen deer with your hands anymore. What will be the consequence for the game? What will happen to the skill? Will it become a useless feature? Do You plan to change it, and how? Would you disable all skills? On what experience mode?

If it "should" take longer to warm up, how much longer exactly? And if you need less wood, this means you have to carry less, less exhaustion - sleeping when fully rested becomes are real issue (right now people are complaining about it already). Beeing able to carry more of food and tools also means more gameplay towards lootrun-basebuilding and away from step by step and visiting places more than once. Also if it takes longer to warm up, what about hypothermia? The temperature? How you are going to change (BALANCE) this? And can you even imagine what an impact a change, for example to the temperature, would have to the game? I could go on and on with that, you get the point.

Again, all you say is that you don't like this and that, and that's totally fine. I can see how some of the points you made could use a change and to some extend i go with you. But it still has nothing to do with the titel of this thread.

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1 hour ago, MueckE said:

I am still not convinced. Now please tell me exactly why "it shouldn't take 4-5 hours worth of wood to warm up" - realism? My point is, do you think the devs don't know how long a camp fire can burn in reallife? So there is a reason why it is like it is in the game. This reason has something to do with gameplay, not realism and as long you don't show me the knowledge about gameplay reasons i assume you don't care at all. That's still fine and ofc you can point out things you don't like in the game. Although it isn't less important to name things you don't like than talking pecisely about specific gameplay features, it creates the illusion of an argument where there is none. 

Balnacing doesn't mean do change something to get what you want. Every change you make will effect all other mechanics/features, the gameplay and maybe even the character of the game and the whole idea of it.

Let's say you can't harvest a half frozen deer with your hands anymore. What will be the consequence for the game? What will happen to the skill? Will it become a useless feature? Do You plan to change it, and how? Would you disable all skills? On what experience mode?

If it "should" take longer to warm up, how much longer exactly? And if you need less wood, this means you have to carry less, less exhaustion - sleeping when fully rested becomes are real issue (right now people are complaining about it already). Beeing able to carry more of food and tools also means more gameplay towards lootrun-basebuilding and away from step by step and visiting places more than once. Also if it takes longer to warm up, what about hypothermia? The temperature? How you are going to change (BALANCE) this? And can you even imagine what an impact a change, for example to the temperature, would have to the game? I could go on and on with that, you get the point.

Again, all you say is that you don't like this and that, and that's totally fine. I can see how some of the points you made could use a change and to some extend i go with you. But it still has nothing to do with the titel of this thread.

"Balnacing doesn't mean do change something to get what you want. Every change you make will effect all other mechanics/features, the gameplay and maybe even the character of the game and the whole idea of it."

So what, the game is in Alpha, so now is the time for such changes, its not like we are talking about a finished project that i want to do major game changes to.

 

"If it "should" take longer to warm up, how much longer exactly? And if you need less wood, this means you have to carry less, less exhaustion - sleeping when fully rested becomes are real issue"

So you are trying to justify one flaw by pointing out that it might make another game flaw more annoying? why not just fix both flaws? not being able to sleep unless im exhausted is a game flaw.

My point it that if im going to harvest a deer and want a 2hour fire next to me it should not need a 5 hour fire to keep me warm.

 

Beeing able to carry more of food and tools also means more gameplay towards lootrun-basebuilding and away from step by step and visiting places more than once.”

im not sure im following you here. Are you saying that because you dont have to carry as much wood you can carry more resources? And then you dont have to go back to places because you have looted everything? If so.. so what. And to be honest I never go back to places I loot the first time as is unless im bored and looking for a change anyway.

 

Also if it takes longer to warm up, what about hypothermia? The temperature? How you are going to change (BALANCE) this? And can you even imagine what an impact a change, for example to the temperature, would have to the game? I could go on and on with that, you get the point.”

well the longer it takes to warm up can be left alone for all I care.. or changed slightly based on hardness level. You said it would make the game easier having a logical fire mechanic, so to make it harder you can adjust the warm up rate. Or adjust the fire starting chance etc.. my point is you can make it logical and still adjust it to make the difficulty the same

 

Again, all you say is that you don't like this and that, and that's totally fine. I can see how some of the points you made could use a change and to some extend i go with you. But it still has nothing to do with the titel of this thread.”

everything I posted is an illogical game mechanic so not sure why that doesn’t go with the title of the thread. There is logical game balancing moves the devs can make. Im just worried the more illogical the game gets in the name of balance the worse the game gets.

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Is this a survival simulation or a survival game? How realistic should either have to be? How important is realism to your enjoyment of a game?

 

21 hours ago, dbldrew said:

Harvesting ½ frozen deer with my bare hands

With a ravaged carcass it is not too unbelievable to be able to rip a kilo or two of flesh off but with level 5 carcass harvesting skill, being able to take ten kg off a fully frozen beast is a stretch. Crazy to do it though because the hacksaw is so much faster harvesting frozen animals.

 

21 hours ago, dbldrew said:

Harvesting rabbits in the freezing cold

Pick it up and bring it inside?

Yeah, I would.

21 hours ago, dbldrew said:

Magic warm houses

You forgot the magic warm backs of caves, magic warm mineshafts, magic warm shipwreck and the magic warm porch with broken windows at PV Farmstead. I go hot and cold on these but I know that without them Interloper would need a shedload more matches and faster respawns on firewood so I'm prepared to ignore them.

 

21 hours ago, dbldrew said:

Cabin fever

so i'm completely exhausted, low health and my only option is to sleep in the car outside my house.. in a blizzard? (interloper, no bedroll)

What the heck are you doing getting CF in Interloper before you find a bedroll?? Might want to rethink that strategy. As @MueckE intimates, Interloper does not seem to be about basebuilding - leastways not in the beginning.

 

21 hours ago, dbldrew said:

Ax and knife lifespan.

My brother still has my grandfathers knife from ww2 but knives are ruined after a few days of use?

Did grandfather make his own knife in the dark in a shipwreck in Northern Canada?

Anyway, I've been to 200 days twice so far. Both times I have only crafted one knife. What's the problem? Are you at like day 500 or something?

 

21 hours ago, dbldrew said:

Fires lack of heat

I need a 4-5hour fire to warm it above freezing, in a sheltered area?

Doesn't sound unreasonable. Maybe we can all go somewhere where the air temp is -25C and try it.

 

21 hours ago, dbldrew said:

Crafting tools

so I can craft a fishing hook out of scrap metal, but no knife or arrowhead?

Well, you can but you need the forge as well. Seems like a gameplay mechanic but again it doesn't sound unreasonable. Anyway it would make Interloper too easy if you could craft these things anywhere.

 

21 hours ago, dbldrew said:

Crouch walking makes you invisible to wildlife?

Yeah, have to agree with this one.

 

21 hours ago, dbldrew said:

Can only shoot a bow standing up?

You need to get out more and shoot more things and that way you might get to experience the joys of unlocking the level 5 archery skill perks.

 

21 hours ago, dbldrew said:

Cant get a full nights sleep unless i'm completely exhausted even if im low on health?

Drives me nuts too.

 

21 hours ago, dbldrew said:

Cant start a fire in the middle of a mine shaft?

Since I have a mine operators license, I can safely tell you this one is a no-no. Then again, think about walking through  a coal mine with a lit flare or a storm lantern.

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29 minutes ago, aurora said:

Do you have this "issues" with "interloper" or with any play-mode?

yes the illogical aspects of the game dont change with the difficulty level. Although I havent played voyager and pilgrim in forever so maybe the fire is more logical in those difficulties?

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So the game is inconsistent with your perception of reality. (Which itself could be a sim. Who knew?)

Do you wonder about the logic of why, in chess, bishops can only move diagonally? Hopefully not. It is just a rule of the game.

That is why I think there needs to be a distinction made between a sim and a game.

To me, TLD is pretty obviously meant to be a game. But so successfully have Hinterland woven their spells that many either think it is a sim or think it should become one.

The problem with simulations, given the limited nature of our equipment, is that inconsistencies with reality will always be present and no matter how much work the developers pour into the game, you will always be able to present a list such as the one above.

Personally I am happy if TLD remains a game because it is more fun. I am not interested in playing anything that tries to mirror life exactly and I am prepared to learn to deal with apparently arbitrary limitations in the same way that I accept that bishops only move diagonally.

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30 minutes ago, mystifeid said:

So the game is inconsistent with your perception of reality. (Which itself could be a sim. Who knew?)

Do you wonder about the logic of why, in chess, bishops can only move diagonally? Hopefully not. It is just a rule of the game.

That is why I think there needs to be a distinction made between a sim and a game.

To me, TLD is pretty obviously meant to be a game. But so successfully have Hinterland woven their spells that many either think it is a sim or think it should become one.

The problem with simulations, given the limited nature of our equipment, is that inconsistencies with reality will always be present and no matter how much work the developers pour into the game, you will always be able to present a list such as the one above.

Personally I am happy if TLD remains a game because it is more fun. I am not interested in playing anything that tries to mirror life exactly and I am prepared to learn to deal with apparently arbitrary limitations in the same way that I accept that bishops only move diagonally.

I dont care about chess.. havent played it in years. I understand this is a game, but im curious on what in my list if fixed would ruin the game for you? 

If cabin fever is fixed your game expereance would be ruined?

If you could pick up rabbits are you never going to play again? 

I get that you love the game. guess what I love it to.. but im not blinded to also see the flaws in it that can be addressed to make it better. 

 

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39 minutes ago, dbldrew said:

I dont care about chess.. havent played it in years.

but you still understand that chess is an abstraction of two armies meeting on a battlefield? Likewise TLD is an abstraction of a survival situation. It's not a simulator where you can draw from what you'd do in real life, if anything it is a survival situation experience simulator. It forces you to think methodically, plan ahead, be aware of consequences, take care of yourself, always expect the unexpect and so on. And this it does splendidly.

Removing Cabin Fever without an adequate replacement would certainly have a huge effect on Interloper. You might not like how it is implemented because - I grant you that - it goes against everythin you'd do in real life but it solves a huge problem TLD had pre-CabinFever: you got too comfortable too quickly. Why take any risks at all if you can stay in the same place all the time?

Thanks to CF you have to take into account alot of factors, you need to have firewood most of the time for several hours and also matches or other means to make a fire. You need to ration your matches wisely and think what you want to get out of that one match you're about to light. You need a bedroll to sleep outside or use the Snow Shelter more often, you have to travel around alot and quite quickly to either find a magnifying glass or more matches. Most importantly: you will never get comfortable and you can never rest, most of the days you are ingame are filled with activity of some sort.

Before CF I used to hunt down several deer/wolves in CH and then just plain straight sleep for 2 weeks, reaching day 400 in Stalker was just a matter of overcome the boredom, not of real "skill". But thanks to CF reaching day 50 in Interloper takes a lot more thought, knowledge and skill than getting to 400 in Stalker. I fail to recognize why anyone would wish the old "clock-simulator" gameplay back from pre-CF times.

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Hi All,

Just a friendly reminder to not go too far down the rabbit hole of realism versus gameplay. It seldom ends well.

As it is, both sides have merit. Some concessions must obviously be made for a game to work (otherwise a deer would have 30kg of meat and you'd get scurvy if you ate nothing else) but that doesn't mean that more realism is necessarily bad. My personal interpretation is "realism" means intuitive. It is realistic (and intuitive) to pick up a whole rabbit carcass and bring it inside. It is not realistic (nor intuitive) to want to go outside in a blizzard because you spent the day reading books and crafting fish hooks. But that's how the game is now. I would like to see both elements changed to improve the experience but they might not be. That's why we have feedback forums and wishlist forums instead of demands forums.

TL;DR: Both opinions (realism vs gameplay) are valid. Don't take it personally if someone values one over the other or likes/dislikes a feature you have the opposite opinion on. :winky:

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I think it might be helpful to take a look at this PC Gamer article about TLD development to get a better understanding for why some of the things are the way they are: Article
 

An except that addresses some of your frustrations:

......I [the article's author] ask him [Raphael van Lierop] about the challenges of balancing realism and fun. “We talk a lot about what is compelling, interesting, logical, beautiful, and fair,” he says. “But we almost never talk about fun. I think it’s too shallow a concept to evaluate against, as it limits you to a relatively small set of experiences.” Instead, Hinterland wants players to feel a sense of accomplishment by putting them in challenging situations, then giving them the tools to work their way out of them. It’s not really a game about having fun: it’s more about mastery and the satisfaction that comes with that.......
 

And also this:

.....We’re often fighting people’s preconceptions about realism more than realism itself,” says van Lierop. “An example of this is how we handle starvation. In reality, starvation would be a long, drawn out process that would take weeks to kill you. In the game it can have dire consequences within a few days.” This, he says, creates a more compelling interval in which to try to solve the problem. “This immediacy makes it meaningful, even though it’s not strictly realistic......
 

I think it is important for the game to adhere to it's own internal logic, as opposed to actual real world logic.  The harvesting chart shown here is an excellent example of how the game follows it's own internal logic.  Pulling info from this chart - its takes 6 minutes to harvest a pillow and results in 2 cloth, it takes 30 minutes to harvest a chair without a pillow and results in 3 reclaimed wood, and it takes 36 minutes to break down a chair with a pillow and results in 3 reclaimed wood and 2 cloth. 

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Thanks I missed this article. it was a very good read and I think everyone who never heard Raph's and hinterlands vision of TLD should read it. I also think the article makes two points very clear:

1. the devs are living TLD sort of in real life and they know what living in a TLD-like environnment means or how "survival" works.

2. every deviation from "realism" is a conscious decision made by the team to enhance player experience and not something they overlooked or didn't think of as unreal.

I also like this passage in the article:

Quote

Hinterland wants the game to be as beautiful, haunting, and thoughtful as it is harrowing. This means, in some cases, realism has to be side-lined to maintain that feeling. “The game is built around wanting to present the player with interesting choices, not trying to create an incredibly realistic survival simulation,” says van Lierop. “Our goal is to create an experience that elicits strong emotions from players.”

And boy can this game elicit strong emotions some times :shock:

When we can agree on those two points above we can start a constructive discussion about how to achieve the goals that Cabin Fever provides without having to go ice fishing during a blizzard and asking yourself why the heck you would do that. Because the latter I do too, believe me, but I am willing to accept this as game mechanics for the enjoyment of having every day something todo as opposed to mainly just breaking the hibernation cycle to go hunting for deer every two weeks or so.

And the same goes for the other points the OP has made where logic is concerned. But instead of asking to change it to "realism" try to provide an alternative that is consistent with the current game mechanics and also hinterlands vision of TLD. Because it is their game and they have to take into account way way more things concerning balancing and player experience than we could possibly imagine while also be coherent with what they have planed for the future, if they don't want to change major aspects of the game with every update.

Raph stated this pretty clear at the end of the article:

Quote

“We’ve always been clear with our community that we want their feedback, but they don’t drive development. And we’re fortunate that they’re comfortable with this. It’s a level of trust that we don’t take for granted, and we constantly strive to exceed their expectations.”

With interloper they clearly exceeded my expectations :D

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4 hours ago, ChillPlayer said:

but you still understand that chess is an abstraction of two armies meeting on a battlefield? Likewise TLD is an abstraction of a survival situation. It's not a simulator where you can draw from what you'd do in real life, if anything it is a survival situation experience simulator. It forces you to think methodically, plan ahead, be aware of consequences, take care of yourself, always expect the unexpect and so on. And this it does splendidly.

Removing Cabin Fever without an adequate replacement would certainly have a huge effect on Interloper. You might not like how it is implemented because - I grant you that - it goes against everythin you'd do in real life but it solves a huge problem TLD had pre-CabinFever: you got too comfortable too quickly. Why take any risks at all if you can stay in the same place all the time?

Thanks to CF you have to take into account alot of factors, you need to have firewood most of the time for several hours and also matches or other means to make a fire. You need to ration your matches wisely and think what you want to get out of that one match you're about to light. You need a bedroll to sleep outside or use the Snow Shelter more often, you have to travel around alot and quite quickly to either find a magnifying glass or more matches. Most importantly: you will never get comfortable and you can never rest, most of the days you are ingame are filled with activity of some sort.

Before CF I used to hunt down several deer/wolves in CH and then just plain straight sleep for 2 weeks, reaching day 400 in Stalker was just a matter of overcome the boredom, not of real "skill". But thanks to CF reaching day 50 in Interloper takes a lot more thought, knowledge and skill than getting to 400 in Stalker. I fail to recognize why anyone would wish the old "clock-simulator" gameplay back from pre-CF times.

What is the point of CF? to force players outside right? Well woudnt taking away magic warm houses do the same thing? If your house isnt warm then you will need to spend time outside collecting firewood. So you can kill 2 birds with one stone.

I understand that this is a game and balance and game play issues sometimes need to take precedence over realism. But if you have a game balance issue that you are trying to achieve and option 1 achieves the balance and is logical and option 2 also achieves the balance but is completely idiotic and illogical then why go with option 2?

Think of it this way.. maybe houses can randomly explode.. that would make the game harder.. will force people to stay out of the houses.. and be completely idiotic and make horrible gameplay.

Is random exploding houses anymore idiotic then being forced to sleep outside in a blizzard?


 


 

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You might have more success if you do as has been hinted at above and focus on what is challenging or not challenging and not on what is realistic or 'idiotic'.

For me, challenge equals fun.

I find that dealing with CF is usually trivial and would probably prefer that CF stays and warm houses are removed as well. Sure, make 'em burn down too.

Lately, something seems to be missing in the challenge department and I would be interested in seeing a harder version of Interloper but the mechanics involved in providing for my enjoyment would doubtless be perceived as annoying by others.

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I still like Cabin Fever as a concept, just not as implemented. Cabin fever should just decrease your condition gain when sleeping inside. That's it. Eventually (depending on balance) that gain should be zero. Add that sort of cabin fever to dynamic heating and you could quickly get to the situation where you have no firewood, cannot heal, a blizzard prevents travel outside and you are slowly freezing to death. That maintains the same mechanical objectives (get the players out of the house), makes for challenging situations, and presents a "realistic" consequence of not preparing for winter survival.

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