not comfy with some peoples opinions. :(

[Baukster77]

1 hour ago, Docterrok said:

Holy crap! Why can't we just raise wolf Cubs?!?!?! 

I LOVE this idea! That would be so fun! Even seeing wolf cubs in the game would be great. But I have a feeling this whole wolf/dog keeping thing won't make the game.

[Baukster77]

You made me think about cubs..... Bear cubs would be great! Making some bears who have cubs even more violent. So you have to make sure to avoid bears with cubs at all times.

Uh oh... just posted my first idea on the completely wrong thread. Appologies in advance.... got carried away by @doctorrok post!

[Dirmagnos]

16 hours ago, Docterrok said:

If wolves imprint, they are attached to owner! Guys! This needs to happen!

No, they dont. They are not dogs. Wild animals, especially predators, do not "imprint" and they cannot have "owner". You can keep them in a cage, but thats about as far as it goes.

[Docterrok]

24 minutes ago, Dirmagnos said:

No, they dont. They are not dogs. Wild animals, especially predators, do not "imprint" and they cannot have "owner". You can keep them in a cage, but thats about as far as it goes.

If you start raising them as Cubs, they will imprint. Most animals do, especially if you where the first thing they saw when they opened there eyes. That's the funny thing about biology.

[Dirmagnos]

2 hours ago, Docterrok said:

If you start raising them as Cubs, they will imprint. Most animals do, especially if you where the first thing they saw when they opened there eyes. That's the funny thing about biology.

No, they dont, ppl who actually study them say that they dont. If wolf cub is taken within 2 weeks of it being born, then maybe, just maybe, bond can be made. But it still wont be as loyal as dog and quite possible one day will decide that its "master" is as good meal as any. Wild animal, a predator, cannot be domesticated by default.

Ppl who do "domesticate" them are either idiots or experts, who know that they are walking on a minefield.

[Docterrok]

5 minutes ago, Dirmagnos said:

No, they dont, ppl who actually study them say that they dont. If wolf cub is taken within 2 weeks of it being born, then maybe, just maybe, bond can be made. But it still wont be as loyal as dog and quite possible one day will decide that its "master" is as good meal as any. Wild animal, a predator, cannot be domesticated by default.

Ppl who do "domesticate" them are either idiots or experts, who know that they are walking on a minefield.

But the "risk/reward" ratio would fit the game, if you don't feed it often, it will attack you. Etc.

[Docterrok]

I'm not saying domesticate, I'm saying it would want to kill you less then other people. 

[Dirmagnos]

Just now, Docterrok said:

But the "risk/reward" ratio would fit the game, if you don't feed it often, it will attack you. Etc.

Hmm, perhaps. Altho its not as simple as feed/not feed. A lot of factors come into play and predicting animal behavior would be impossible.

[Dirmagnos]

1 minute ago, Docterrok said:

I'm not saying domesticate, I'm saying it would want to kill you less then other people. 

Its called habituation.

[Docterrok]

1 minute ago, Dirmagnos said:

Hmm, perhaps. Altho its not as simple as feed/not feed. A lot of factors come into play and predicting animal behavior would be impossible.

I know that, of course, but again, we shouldn't be fighting with it to establish dominance like in real like, that's what irked fox in the first place.

[Docterrok]

And there's this to look into

http://wolfpark.org/animals/hybrids/sloan-poster/poster07/

[Dirmagnos]

When we first had this argument i actually contacted an expert. There was some email exchange, a couple of pdf files, but mainly it came down to this.

"The first thing to realize is that domestication is something that evolves over generation, while taming occurs over an animal's lifetime. So No you can not domesticate a healthy grown wolf, or even a young wolf.  However, taming is another thing all together.  Taming is a fairly imprecise word, but basically means to make an animal less fearful of humans.  The most profound way you can do this is through socialization.  To do this you have to take advantage of the critical period of socialization which occurs from 2-6 weeks in wolves.  You also need to start before 3 weeks, when their ears open.  Preferably by 10 days around when their eyes open.  If you attempt to socialize a wolf pup after 3 weeks of age, you will have an effect, the animal has a shorter flight distance, but they do not seem to form a social bond with people if you start the process after 3 weeks.  I believe this is because you do not have sufficient time for them to become familiar with the smell of their human caretaker before their eyes open (see: Lord, K., (2013). A comparison of the sensory development of wolves (Canis lupus lupus) and dogs (Canis lupus familiaris). Ethology.119: 110-120).  

You can habituate adult wolves, although it seems to be harder to do that to Habituate say a coyote or fox.  Habituation usually occurs when the animal begins to associate the person with food.  This animal is still skittish, but will have a shorter flight distance like the pups we attempted to socialize earlier in the paragraph after 3 weeks of age. So not the same as a socialized wolf. The problem here is that usually a wild adult wolf won't get close enough to people to start the habituation process.  So in that case a hurt or sick  or very hungry animal or an animal in captivity, would be a much more likely candidate.  Woolpy and Ginsberg had a couple studies looking at trying to "tame" older wolves. They tried drugs and that didn't work, the best they could do was habituate. 

(Woolly, J., Ginsburg, B. (1967) Wolf Socialization: A study of Temperament in wild social species. American Zoologist, May 1, 357-363.

However, even a well socialized wolf is not like a dog. They are more fearful of novelty in general, they do  not generalize like a dog. They have a reduced flight distance towards people, but their social bond only extends to familiar people. They are more dangerous than a wild wolf, because they are more likely to attack than run away given their reduced flight distance, they are just more likely to end up in a position where fleeing becomes untenable. They show every behavior in the book that you would be horrified to find in a pet dog.  So they are extremely different behaviorally even when well socialized. "

[Docterrok]

Well, if your alone, the only person the wolf will be familiar with is you!  

2 minutes ago, Dirmagnos said:

When we first had this argument i actually contacted an expert. There was some email exchange, a couple of pdf files, but mainly it came down to this.

"The first thing to realize is that domestication is something that evolves over generation, while taming occurs over an animal's lifetime. So No you can not domesticate a healthy grown wolf, or even a young wolf.  However, taming is another thing all together.  Taming is a fairly imprecise word, but basically means to make an animal less fearful of humans.  The most profound way you can do this is through socialization.  To do this you have to take advantage of the critical period of socialization which occurs from 2-6 weeks in wolves.  You also need to start before 3 weeks, when their ears open.  Preferably by 10 days around when their eyes open.  If you attempt to socialize a wolf pup after 3 weeks of age, you will have an effect, the animal has a shorter flight distance, but they do not seem to form a social bond with people if you start the process after 3 weeks.  I believe this is because you do not have sufficient time for them to become familiar with the smell of their human caretaker before their eyes open (see: Lord, K., (2013). A comparison of the sensory development of wolves (Canis lupus lupus) and dogs (Canis lupus familiaris). Ethology.119: 110-120).  

You can habituate adult wolves, although it seems to be harder to do that to Habituate say a coyote or fox.  Habituation usually occurs when the animal begins to associate the person with food.  This animal is still skittish, but will have a shorter flight distance like the pups we attempted to socialize earlier in the paragraph after 3 weeks of age. So not the same as a socialized wolf. The problem here is that usually a wild adult wolf won't get close enough to people to start the habituation process.  So in that case a hurt or sick  or very hungry animal or an animal in captivity, would be a much more likely candidate.  Woolpy and Ginsberg had a couple studies looking at trying to "tame" older wolves. They tried drugs and that didn't work, the best they could do was habituate. 

(Woolly, J., Ginsburg, B. (1967) Wolf Socialization: A study of Temperament in wild social species. American Zoologist, May 1, 357-363.

However, even a well socialized wolf is not like a dog. They are more fearful of novelty in general, they do  not generalize like a dog. They have a reduced flight distance towards people, but their social bond only extends to familiar people. They are more dangerous than a wild wolf, because they are more likely to attack than run away given their reduced flight distance, they are just more likely to end up in a position where fleeing becomes untenable. They show every behavior in the book that you would be horrified to find in a pet dog.  So they are extremely different behaviorally even when well socialized. "

 

[hauteecolerider]

No, @Dirmagnos is actually correct on this one. And he actually quotes a couple of scientists whose work I am familiar with. And I have said pretty much the same thing before.

In TLD, the wolf will not be familiar with you, but with its own kind.

Imprinting works only while the animal is young. Once that animal hits puberty, however, it becomes a whole different story. Because of its familiarity with you, it will try to foist its sexual urges upon you. Unfortunately you, being a different species from this animal, are not going to come off well in this type of encounter. All inhibitions come off, and the animal will actually become quite aggressive in its search for a suitable mate. 

That's why wildlife rehabilitators (and I did volunteer work at a couple of reputable places) avoid having babies imprint on people. Instead, they prefer to have the babies imprint on each other. 

For those who counter that this is a game and that there is no need to be realistic, I have only this to say. If the wolves are uncharacteristically aggressive towards you because of a geomagnetic disaster, why would they overcome their homicidal tendencies and become your friend? The way I see it, they are starving and will eat anything that doesn't carry wolf DNA. Just the same as the bears will eat you because they're not hibernating and so their metabolism is running unseasonably high.

Realism is about more than hewing to what we know about the real world. It has to do with consistency in explaining why things are the way they are, whether they're realistic or not. This is seen in the best science fiction novels, where there is a consistency about some of the outlandish ideas thrown out there. Jiff Jetpack isn't going to carry a Radium Pellet Gun just because it's cool, he's carrying it because it has a purpose. And everything about it and its use has to fit that purpose.

Sorry, but hungry predators aren't going to stop and think, "hey, that creature's leaving food around for us - great source of food - let's be friends!" No. they're gonna just follow their noses and their wolf minds are going to think "SOURCE OF FOOD LET'S GET IT DOWN AND DEAD SO WE CAN FINALLY EAT!!"

I'm sorry, @Crimson Foxx that you felt uncomfortable with some of the opinions on this thread. I do experience that feeling myself. I just don't respond to them unless I see that they are wrong, but I try to keep my tone matter-of-fact without any name-calling of any kind, and to link to documented proof (i.e. scientific articles) that back up my own opinion. 

It's the name-calling that really gets my back up, and I won't respond to such posts because that's how flame wars get started. 

[cekivi]

As a friendly reminder if you do see name calling directed at you or someone else you should flag the post for moderator followup.
 

[sir ice]

On 6/28/2016 at 4:23 PM, Crimson Foxx said:

I am not sure i wish to add my ideas or thoughts on possible wishes for this games content when it seems people take it way too seriously and forget this is a game and not real life.

I created a topic ( wish i have now deleted) suggesting a nice idea of a pet wolf or dog that could be a player companion. What i got was replies suggesting that it was cruelty to a wolf to try to beat it into submission because in 'real life' you would need to beat or hurt or aggressively make a wild wolf into being tame. Maybe in the real world this is true. But this is a game and if my idea is going to be treated like it was then i see no point in suggesting ideas. I do not condone animal cruelty or even expect Hinterland to create any gameplay that would cause the player to be cruel and beat an animal. For people to even suggest the idea would lead to that is sad.

So i deleted it and will likely from now on remain a silent observer of your ideas. I have lost any desire to make suggestions or give ideas. sorry.

I think people are afraid that the game will change in that way. The game would be completely different if we could have pets. Remember that it is hard to read emotions on simple text. Thats why we have emojis. People are usually making a playful joke.

[Baukster77]

5 hours ago, sir ice said:

ITS SEXIST BECAUSE THE WOMAN IS WEAK AND CAN'T FIGHT THE WOLVES!!!!!!!!!!!!

Like this you mean? @sir ice

[Baukster77]

12 hours ago, Docterrok said:

If you start raising them as Cubs, they will imprint. Most animals do, especially if you where the first thing they saw when they opened there eyes. That's the funny thing about biology.

 

8 hours ago, hauteecolerider said:

No, @Dirmagnos is actually correct on this one. And he actually quotes a couple of scientists whose work I am familiar with. And I have said pretty much the same thing before.

In TLD, the wolf will not be familiar with you, but with its own kind.

Imprinting works only while the animal is young. Once that animal hits puberty, however, it becomes a whole different story. Because of its familiarity with you, it will try to foist its sexual urges upon you. Unfortunately you, being a different species from this animal, are not going to come off well in this type of encounter. All inhibitions come off, and the animal will actually become quite aggressive in its search for a suitable mate. 

That's why wildlife rehabilitators (and I did volunteer work at a couple of reputable places) avoid having babies imprint on people. Instead, they prefer to have the babies imprint on each other. 

For those who counter that this is a game and that there is no need to be realistic, I have only this to say. If the wolves are uncharacteristically aggressive towards you because of a geomagnetic disaster, why would they overcome their homicidal tendencies and become your friend? The way I see it, they are starving and will eat anything that doesn't carry wolf DNA. Just the same as the bears will eat you because they're not hibernating and so their metabolism is running unseasonably high.

Realism is about more than hewing to what we know about the real world. It has to do with consistency in explaining why things are the way they are, whether they're realistic or not. This is seen in the best science fiction novels, where there is a consistency about some of the outlandish ideas thrown out there. Jiff Jetpack isn't going to carry a Radium Pellet Gun just because it's cool, he's carrying it because it has a purpose. And everything about it and its use has to fit that purpose.

Sorry, but hungry predators aren't going to stop and think, "hey, that creature's leaving food around for us - great source of food - let's be friends!" No. they're gonna just follow their noses and their wolf minds are going to think "SOURCE OF FOOD LET'S GET IT DOWN AND DEAD SO WE CAN FINALLY EAT!!"

I'm sorry, @Crimson Foxx that you felt uncomfortable with some of the opinions on this thread. I do experience that feeling myself. I just don't respond to them unless I see that they are wrong, but I try to keep my tone matter-of-fact without any name-calling of any kind, and to link to documented proof (i.e. scientific articles) that back up my own opinion. 

It's the name-calling that really gets my back up, and I won't respond to such posts because that's how flame wars get started. 

Well said! Big thumbs up!

[sir ice]

3 hours ago, Baukster77 said:

Like this you mean? @sir ice

? The video clip.

[Docterrok]

20 hours ago, sir ice said:

Remember that it is hard to read emotions on simple text. Thats why we have emojis

...

[sir ice]

1 hour ago, Docterrok said:

...

lol