Nature vs you

[SteveP]

Please share your thoughts on various new risks. ideas so far include drowning (while getting mussels under the ice at low tide), avalanches and the various medical afflictions. You can always link to the other topics by adding a URL link.

[Scyzara]

Damage upon collision with fleeing wolves (minor damage), deer (medium damage) and bears (massive damage). You should take care not to be trampled by them.

 

[cekivi]

If they're fleeing wouldn't they be avoiding you? The animal AI is so jumpy that it is sometimes hard to avoid animals since they can change directions very quickly.

I wouldn't mind thin ice as a risk on some of the rivers, near the dam and the coast. Fast moving water doesn't have a chance to freeze very thick and presents a risk throughout the entire winter. The river behind my house always froze over in the winter but there was one spot where it was very shallow but fast moving over bedrock. You could go there in January with -15C days and still have open flowing water

To make it not be arbitrary, there should be a character comment about the ice conditions (e.g. this doesn't look safe), there should be a visual clue (damp patches on the snow from water forcing its way up and auditory clues (cracks in the ice). If you fall in you should have the chance to pull yourself back out (struggle animation) and try to get somewhere warm before you freeze to death. You'd need a new condition ("wet") that affects all of your clothes (including any in your pack) limiting their insulating potential and instantly drops your warmth to the 25% mark and prevents it from going higher. There should also be a new crafting item "ice picks" to help you get back out onto safe ice. While falling through would be terrible, this way would provide enough warning to know that you're risking a fall and, while very, very, bad, it is still survivable if you can get to shelter quickly to dry out and warm up.

The upside would be is if you can safely approach thin ice or open water (e.g. the open hole on the river behind my house for instance) you can have access to water without needing to melt it, it would likely be drinkable (bacteria can seldom survive in fast moving water especially in winter) and you'd be able to grab stones from the river (possible as sling shot ammo?).

Anyways, that's my idea for an acceptable additional risk.

 

[June]

+ 1 for thin ice

+ 1 for avalanches (they could come in various sizes and effects, depending on the surrounding)

How about a cold/fever? I always wondered how you could not catch a cold in TLD ^^

[Boston123]

26 minutes ago, June said:

+ 1 for thin ice

+ 1 for avalanches (they could come in various sizes and effects, depending on the surrounding)

How about a cold/fever? I always wondered how you could not catch a cold in TLD ^^

You .... do realize that "colds" are not caused by temperature, right? "Colds" are a virus (Rhinovirus, specifically), and without other people around, you are almost exponentially unlikely to develop it.

[June]

I´m not a doctor, Sir, but if I imagine myself being underdressed in such a cold environment, I´d definitely start to sneeze and cough and get fever, no?

[Vhalkyrie]

Cold and flu are communicable, that's true.  However, they can also persist on surfaces for a long time.  If you walk into an abandoned cabin and the previous occupant had a cold, you might get it when you touched the door handle.  Nasal passages dry out in cold weather, and airborne viruses can travel farther in the cold.

But overall, yeah - without a colony of infected people and children, you're less likely to get a cold or flu.  Maybe hermits have it right after all!

[cekivi]

Still not a fan of avalanches

As I mentioned in @SteveP's poll avalanches would feel really arbitrary and random versus the other elements presently in the game. I'm fine with random elements but not if they take away player agency. If avalanches can be implemented in a way that maintains player agency (such as warning signs and ways to escape) than that would be OK. Considering how cataclysmic an avalanche can be I just don't see it being possible.

As far as diseases go... I'm not a doctor but getting a cold is not fun. Getting a cold in the game and becoming bedridden would be a very quick way to make the game un-fun. You can't go out, your stamina is zero and if you don't have a large supply of water and food you'll just starve or dehydrate. Diseases are realistic but the current implementation (food poisoning) is about as far as I'd want to go with the current mechanics. Depending on how NPCs are implemented (can you care for them? can they care for you?) I may change my mind.

[cekivi]

Some random (and probably non-fatal) elements that I would like to see added are:

1. Snow drifts. Whenever a blizzard hits bodies, cars, doors etc slowly get buried in snow. Others may become exposed depending on the wind direction. This would make blizzards more interesting as they would directly change the physical environment (blocking/unblocking) in addition to posing a huge risk to the player. It would also add a purpose for a shovel (or at least allow players the option to uncover things). Note that this has been mentioned by myself and others on earlier forum posts.

2. Random high level equipment drops. You're exploring and you find a hatchet in a stump or a rifle leaning up against a tree. This should be extremely rare but people do occasionally leave things behind and forget to come back for them. E.g. someone was splitting wood and forgot their hatchet when they left or someone shot a deer but got run off by a bear while harvesting it leaving their rifle behind. At most, there should be two instances of this per map (less for the smaller ones). Mainly I'd like to see this added to give the maps a more "lived in" feeling.

3. Random better equipment: Perhaps you could find a scoped rifle or a titanium hatchet? Again, these items should be extremely rare (maybe one per sandbox) but they would encourage exploring.

4. Flickering lights at night. Hey, this electromagnetic disturbance causes weird things to happen with technology, right? Wouldn't it be cool if you're sheltering in the middle of the night, blizzard roaring outside and suddenly the lights start flickering? That would certainly weird me out! Maybe this could be something that only happens in bad weather? I recall one of the developers mentioning though that the aurora would not be making an appearance in the sandbox...

5. The possibility of finding maps, journal entries and personal effects in lived in areas and on corpses. This is probably the hardest to implement but something I would love to see. The sandbox has so much potential and a little extra story sprinkled here and there would just make it that much sweeter. For instance, finding an empty pack of smokes and a broken lighter on a corpse. A torn journal page hinting at the location of a survivalist bunker. A map in the camp office with notes on where the dead guy upstairs had already looked for supplies and other survivors. None of this gives a gameplay bonus or penalty (except maybe having a clue where to look for the bunker) but it would add a lot of depth to the world our characters find themselves in.

Anyways, those are my thoughts.

 

 

 

 

[SEAplane]

cekivi, yes yes and yes please.... No need to quote your whole post.

I echo your idea for rare amazing items.  Not only random place but random if at all. Something special to make us revisit and explore known areas in sandbox.  Even add an achievement % times found in sandbox play.

 

Back to new risk-  I know it's a pain to develop, and it would require a hidden quality% on the stove/fireplace but hear me out...

What if you could accidentally burn your shelter down?  The sight of that, the loss of goods, the images.  Just saying  

 

[cekivi]

48 minutes ago, SEAplane said:

Back to new risk-  I know it's a pain to develop, and it would require a hidden quality% on the stove/fireplace but hear me out...

What if you could accidentally burn your shelter down?  The sight of that, the loss of goods, the images.  Just saying  

 

That would be really good... and also terrifying! Especially if it happened at night...

The trick would be how could you implement it in a way that wouldn't seem arbitrary? I could see stoking a fire when you're falling down from exhaustion possibly leading to a blaze or leaving a fire going overnight in a fireplace (not stoves or fire barrels) while you sleep beside it. For both methods you would have agency in that it was a risk you decided to take and the consequences are the loss of shelter. You should also have a way to put out any fire before it spreads at the risk of burns and requiring water or cloth to drown/smoother it. One more reason to not leave a fire lit at night.

[SEAplane]

Agree on agency, and maybe fireplace only is the key.  Still an uncleaned chimney fire would be an issue overtime, even on a wood stove. 

Wakes you in the middle of the night ... Room on fire and you have to find the door.  The glow and horror of it all.

[cekivi]

Well, an uncleaned chimney fire is certainly devastating and a real risk since you don't know how well the fireplaces and stoves were maintained before the Long Dark began. The problem is there is no way at present to get onto the roofs of any of these buildings nor any way to clean the chimney. So, while realistic, best to leave it out for now until we see what other tools are being added to the sandbox in the next update

But yes, assuming you wake up (dying of carbon monoxide poisoning is definitely a risk too) the mad scramble for the door with only the clothes on your back would be absolutely terrifying. Very thematic too. Just imagine, you burst out the door of the Camp Office (one of the stoves would need to become a fireplace for this to work) and there's Fluffy waiting for you, eyes glowing, just beyond the range of the fire. The fire burns hot now against the darkness but as the wind picks up and a gentle snow starts falling the realization sets in that morning is still a very, very long way away...

[Boston123]

5 hours ago, June said:

I´m not a doctor, Sir, but if I imagine myself being underdressed in such a cold environment, I´d definitely start to sneeze and cough and get fever, no?

Your immune system can get depressed as a result of stress on the body due to conditions, but the disease actually has to be there for you to get sick.

[SEAplane]

3 hours ago, cekivi said:

Just imagine, you burst out the door of the Camp Office (one of the stoves would need to become a fireplace for this to work) and there's Fluffy waiting for you, eyes glowing, just beyond the range of the fire. The fire burns hot now against the darkness but as the wind picks up and a gentle snow starts falling the realization sets in that morning is still a very, very long way away...

Yeah... Que the 'something woke you up'. Gives that more drama too.

 

It leaves you praying for the cabin's fire to keep burning bright.  It's keeping the gathering pack at the shadows edge.  What is that three of them now?   Do you have your rifle?  The bed roll... It's, it's just embers drifting across Mystery Lake.  They cast a glow.  A path.  Can you make it to a lake cabin, or there is Trapper's too.   Where is the pack?  Wait, wait, just need a moment... wait....  

 

I say no way to put it out... Just leave a burned out shelll like the other buildings but wrap it in fire as it goes up.

[Scyzara]

16 hours ago, cekivi said:

If they're fleeing wouldn't they be avoiding you? The animal AI is so jumpy that it is sometimes hard to avoid animals since they can change directions very quickly.

Sure they should, but they don't.^^ And I always find it extremely immersion-breaking when they simply run through me. Some (non-lethal) damage wouldn't hurt in this context imho, even if it might be difficult to avoid sometimes.

Nice idea about the river ice, but I'm a bit torn how it should be implemented in detail. If the warnings about river ice are as obvious as the "weak ice" warnings at sea that are currently in the game, there's probably never anybody going to actually break through. (TLD's rivers aren't wide enough to really lose orientation and move in the wrong direction accidentally, not even in thick fog). Would be a bit of a pointless risk gameplay-wise if it's so easy to avoid that it never happens, imho. I'd be more happy about risks that actually do happen to me occasionally, but maybe that's just my personal taste. ^^

Btw, I recently remembered another idea brought up by someone a few months ago:

Falling rocks in mines and caves. Being hit by these might make you stumble and black out for a few seconds (like the end of the bear fighting cutscene), cause an affliction called "mild concussion" and require painkillers + 12h of sleep to cure. Would be pretty funny if some lumps of coal were lying around you after the rockfall...ehm I mean "coalfall".

 

 

[cekivi]

A "coalfall" may be interesting. Abandoned mines like that may have rocks loosened as a result of you heating up the area with torches and campfires. Although hearing a crack or seeing some pebbles fall are probably necessary to give the player a chance to dodge. The problem is, which direction to dodge in?

Also, maybe instead of "mild concussion" just make it "bad headache" so the cure could be painkillers or 12 hours of sleep.

[nicko]

no way that would suck in game play. Hit by a friggn mine drop?

[Vhalkyrie]

I'd be ok with avalanches or mine collapse as long as they were something that was caused by my action or inaction.  All of my deaths to date have been due to my stupid choices, ignorance, or lack of preparation. In other words, they were avoidable in some way. 

If it was pure RNG, I would not like that.

[Scyzara]

Just in case somebody got my suggestion wrong: I've never been talking about a massive cave-in or any form of mine collapse that could bury or kill you.

There's a big difference between 3 pieces of coal falling on your head and a mine collapse.

I would never suggest to be killed or receive life-threatening injuries during a random "coalfall". I've only suggested to have some coal lumps fall on your head causing a mild form of concussion or headache. Those coal lumps seem to break off from the ceiling or walls (from a narrative point of view) anyway as they respawn if you pick them up. I'd thus find it pretty plausible to be hit by some coal pieces on rare occasions, at least if you spend much time inside mines. 

[Patrick Carlson]

4 hours ago, Scyzara said:

Just in case somebody got my suggestion wrong: I've never been talking about a massive cave-in or any form of mine collapse that could bury or kill you.

There's a big difference between 3 pieces of coal falling on your head and a mine collapse.

I would never suggest to be killed or receive life-threatening injuries during a random "coalfall". I've only suggested to have some coal lumps fall on your head causing a mild form of concussion or headache. Those coal lumps seem to break off from the ceiling or walls (from a narrative point of view) anyway as they respawn if you pick them up. I'd thus find it pretty plausible to be hit by some coal pieces on rare occasions, at least if you spend much time inside mines. 

This is an interesting idea. Currently, at least in my estimation, the various mine systems act as a refuge (of sorts) once you get to know how they work and connect to the surface regions. I'm curious how we would view them if there were other "threats" introduced. Just speculating here. 

--Patrick

[Rusty_Old_F250]

21 hours ago, SEAplane said:

cekivi, yes yes and yes please.... No need to quote your whole post.

What if you could accidentally burn your shelter down?  The sight of that, the loss of goods, the images.  Just saying  

 

I love it, all of it! But especially the snow drifts and the extremely rare item drops. It would give you reasons to re-visit areas. 

Here's another idea: Bunker opening are buried by the snow. All of the bunkers spawn, but only the instructions to find ONE of them spawns somewhere on the map (i.e. on a corpse) The rest you have to find by pure luck with a pole and shovel, or wait till a storm un-buries one...

The cabin burning down reminds me of the first time I got "locked out" of carter hydro. I had intended it to be a quick trip to snag some wood from the pallets, and traveled light because of it. Got my reclaimed wood, went to go back inside... Oh CRAP!! I'd already explored Pleasant valley and coastal highway, and drug "everything" back to Mystery lake... Thankfully, I'd missed quite a bit. A very satisfying unexpected adventure, and yes, I did make it back to mystery lake.

If you set your bedroll up just a bit too close to the fire and leave it there for just a bit too long it could catch fire too...

Sam

 

[cekivi]

It seems like everyone on this forum is a sucker for punishment

Having all the bunkers spawn wouldn't work since it may cause some balancing issues (too many items in one area). Having two or three per map with the chance of them being buried though... now that would be very interesting indeed

[SEAplane]

21 hours ago, Rusty_Old_F250 said:

... but only the instructions to find ONE of them spawns somewhere on the map (i.e. on a corpse) The rest you have to find...

... reminds me of the first time I got "locked out" of carter hydro. 

 

I enjoy playing with clues and if it's part of the storyline or even sandbox 'story' it adds depth.  I also enjoy the mystery of not knowing the full map.  If we did get maps in game I hope they are partial.  I don't know how to keep the element of earn the knowledge in this day and age when it just will be shared.   I do it too, and have used and like many of the really great map/map makers.

I think the risks need to not be random, but that is not to be confused with lack of knowledge or misuse.  Simple or complex its those lessons add to the richness of the game.  

Ah the Dam... I died on that river.   Bad combo of lacks: temp, visibility and correct supplies.   I still hold that place in contempt.  It was greedy of me too the way it happened.  Not sure other greed decisions/moments so far have had the same effect.  

It was the first time I felt like I couldn't trust something that was 'safe' game mechanics.  Well beyond the lesson of say stepping into a fire.  It happened before I had read much on the forum.  For what it's worth I was ok if was a 100% 'dead end'.  We need places we just should not go.  I respect it now... It's a wicked place, and where it's located... It forces you to remember the nature of TLD.

 

[SteveP]

On 2016-03-23 at 6:47 PM, Boston123 said:

Your immune system can get depressed as a result of stress on the body due to conditions, but the disease actually has to be there for you to get sick.

Aren't rhinoviruses already present in your nasal passages? Many people have the virus but don't have symptoms. I do not know if it can be a chronic condition in otherwise healthy individuals. It can be chronic in patients with immunosuppression. Fortunately for the TLD character, the rhinovirus does not spread to other animals. There are of course other virii that do spread through birds and other vectors. Generally these are much more severe and dangerous.

The most common disease you could get would be from bat guano is histoplasmosis, a fungal infection. Bats and other mammals also can transmit rabies.

Not everyone who inhales the fungal spores develops histoplasmosis. See also http://www.batsintheattic.org/histoplasmosis.html

If a disease were added to the game, perhaps a fictional one would better serve our purposes? The causes could include getting excessively fatigued, starving and exposure. This would certainly penalize those players who routinely abuse their avatar's needs. The symptoms could be less severe but decrease the player's strength and endurance or cause the sneezing and coughing symptoms.

On 2016-03-22 at 2:26 PM, cekivi said:

As I mentioned in @SteveP's poll avalanches would feel really arbitrary and random versus the other elements presently in the game. I'm fine with random elements but not if they take away player agency. If avalanches can be implemented in a way that maintains player agency (such as warning signs and ways to escape) than that would be OK. Considering how cataclysmic an avalanche can be I just don't see it being possible.

Avalanches do give warnings. They occur when heavy wet snow follows cold dry snow that is very powdery and unconsolidated. Warnings can include noises and small balls of snow appearing. Number one action you need to be aware of us keep away from avalanche chutes and stay off the tops of any area where snow has accumulated because you the human are often the cause of the avalanche. Avalanche awareness is a very serious consideration for people living in mountain conditions during winter. It certainly seems as if there would need to be some modification of maps to create the avalanche zones. Avalanches can also be caused by animals and animals are often the victims. You might find a carcass in an avalanche zone after the fact. You might even find a corpse there too, presumably an other survivor (non-interactive) and appear as a spawn.

Here is some more information about avalanche awareness and warning signals: http://www.avalanche.org/tutorial/tutorial.html

http://www.mensjournal.com/travel/ski-snow/how-to-spot-an-avalanche-risk-six-signs-of-dangerous-snow-20141215

http://mountaintracks.co.uk/blog/5-red-flags-avalanche-danger includes several indications including "CRACKING, BLOCKING OR WHOOMPING OF THE SNOW PACK" as well as the wind and weather clues.

Cougars are another very dangerous animal that is fond of ambushing prey, particularly if they are very hungry. The warning signs are tracks, scat, scratch marks, carcasses of prey. http://www.wildernesscollege.com/mountain-lion-tracks.html

If you meet a cougar:

1. Never approach a cougar. Although cougars will normally avoid a confrontation, all cougars are unpredictable.
2. Cougars feeding on a kill may be dangerous.Always give a cougar an avenue of escape.
3. Stay calm. Talk to the cougar in a confident voice.
4. Pick all children up off the ground immediately. Children frighten easily and their rapid movements may provoke an attack.
5. Do not run. Try to back away from the cougar slowly. Sudden movement or flight may trigger an instinctive attack.
6. Do not turn your back on the cougar. Face the cougar and remain upright.
7. If a cougar shows interest or follows you, respond aggressively.  Maintain eye contact with the cougar, show your teeth and make loud noise.  Arm yourself with rocks or sticks as weapons.  Crouch down as little as possible when bending down to pick up things off of the ground.

If the cougar behaves aggressively:

1. Arm yourself with a large stick, throw rocks, speak loudly and firmly. Convince the cougar that you are a threat not prey.
2. If a cougar attacks, fight back! Many people have survived cougar attacks by fighting back with anything, including rocks, sticks, bare fists, and fishing poles.

http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/wld/documents/cougsf.htm

So if cougars are added to the game you might want to have the ability to shout, throw rocks and wave a big stick! Crouching is a bad idea.

If a cougar is staring intensely, with its tail twitching, body low to the ground/crouching, and ears erect, the cougar is waiting for a chance to attack. If the cougar’s rear legs are also pumping or moving up and down and its ears are turned fur side forward, an attack is imminent:

1. Do all of the above.
2. Launch a preemptive strike by taking aggressive action toward the cougar.
3. If you have a weapon, use it. If you have a tree branch or walking stick, quickly run toward the cougar and shove the stick in its face. If you don’t have a stick, yell and run toward the cougar with your hands overhead but stop before you’re within reach of its paws.

http://www.mountaineersbooks.org/assets/clientpages/zz_cougarencounter.aspx

Cougars are mentioned in the following forum thread:

There are  many many threads that mention cougars and mountain lions as well as bob-cats and lynx. The cougar could take some of the pressure off wolves as the primary animal risk.