Return arrowhead crafting to workbench


Eames

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I don't know what was the intention with forges, way back at Desolation Point update. It's awkward from both gameplay and realism perspectives. Gameplay, because with bow hunting being unreliable as it is, limiting crafting to only one region is way too much hassle. Also arrowheads aren't that crucial yet are permanent. Craft them once and you're set. It breaks balance of spawn locations and makes the journey to DP forced and not fun. Just imagine if torches or snares could be crafted only at DP... Realism, because in real life one can make arrowheads from soda cans by cutting and folding aluminum. No need for forges.

As it stands right now, moving arrowhead crafting to forges all but removed a mechanic from the game.

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Maybe being able to craft multiple kind of arrowhead can arguably solve this problem? Like ones made from flints, others from cans ( maybe introducible along with a system of waste disposal? ) and some others from the forge! With different proprieties and resistances?

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1 hour ago, Resethel said:

Maybe being able to craft multiple kind of arrowhead can arguably solve this problem? Like ones made from flints, others from cans ( maybe introducible along with a system of waste disposal? ) and some others from the forge! With different proprieties and resistances?

One satisfying solution would be to label workbench arrowheads as "improvised" and make them degrade as tools. While forge arrowheads would be permanent.

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3 minutes ago, Eames said:

One satisfying solution would be to label workbench arrowheads as "improvised" and make them degrade as tools. While forge arrowheads would be permanent.

I like this idea. An arrowhead made from, say, a pop can would have a very limited life. But one actually forged would last a very long time, relatively speaking.

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14 hours ago, Eames said:

I don't know what was the intention with forges, way back at Desolation Point update. It's awkward from both gameplay and realism perspectives. Gameplay, because with bow hunting being unreliable as it is, limiting crafting to only one region is way too much hassle. Also arrowheads aren't that crucial yet are permanent. Craft them once and you're set. It breaks balance of spawn locations and makes the journey to DP forced and not fun. Just imagine if torches or snares could be crafted only at DP... Realism, because in real life one can make arrowheads from soda cans by cutting and folding aluminum. No need for forges.

NOOOOOOOOOOO! Just leave the forge alone already, it is fine and yes it will have more features in the future or at least I hope so.

-10

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As I've pointed out here, there is no need to work flint, glass or forge arrowheads, there would be a huge supply of arrowhead blanks in just about every map, I'm speaking of spoons, both table and teaspoons, beat them flat with the heavy hammer ( ok you are going to most likely have to go to DP to get that), and sharpen the edges, then attach them to an arrow shaft, and Bob is your mother's brother...

Doubt that it will be added to the game though.

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I did some research on the matter. Actually forging an arrowhead is no small task, likely beyond the capabilities of either a bush pilot or a medical doctor. A friend of mine took some blacksmithing classes and it already took hours to forge a simple knife. Arrowheads are even more difficult due to the need for proper shafting.

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/8084/8084-h/8084-h.htm#vi

this free e-book deals with the subject matter, I specifically linked to the part on fletching, but the book itself is a pretty informing read.

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On 31.5.2016 at 6:57 PM, Eames said:

I don't know what was the intention with forges, way back at Desolation Point update. It's awkward from both gameplay and realism perspectives. Gameplay, because with bow hunting being unreliable as it is, limiting crafting to only one region is way too much hassle. Also arrowheads aren't that crucial yet are permanent. Craft them once and you're set. It breaks balance of spawn locations and makes the journey to DP forced and not fun. Just imagine if torches or snares could be crafted only at DP... Realism, because in real life one can make arrowheads from soda cans by cutting and folding aluminum. No need for forges.

+1

Realism-wise it makes no sense only being able to make arrowheads at the forge if we have scrap metal, toolboxes and workbenches. Gameplay-wise it may make sense to force players to travel to certain areas at some point... but then we are not really forced to travel to DP, since arrows and arrowheads can be found on other maps, and given that we also have the rifle and plenty of ammunition for that plus snares and fishing lines it likely will be thousands of days until we are forced to go to DP for arrowheads. If at all.

Now maybe we could differentiate the bow & arrow system a bit - for example by introducing different kinds of arrowheads as has been suggested. The tip of an arrow could be hardened in a fire, which would make for the weakest kind of arrow. This would be able to take down rabbits (which should be really hard to hit), but be useless against bigger game, especially wolves. Then we could carve arrowheads from stone or deer bone, needing tools to do so. These would break easily, but might take down a wolf if lucky. Third type of arrowheads would be metal and could be made from scrap metal using quality tools and a workbench. These would make for the best arrows, able to take down wolves and deer. In my personal opinion, they should not be able to take down bears. To accomplish this feat, I think a crafted bow should not be sufficient.

Now this is taking me a bit further away from the OP, but I wouldn't mind having a compound hunting bow or crossbow and pre-fabricated "professional" arrows/bolts introduced into the game. This should be a very rare find, maybe one compound bow or crossbow in all the maps combined, or a maximum of two. And that one should be able to take down bears.

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4 hours ago, Hotzn said:

+1

Realism-wise it makes no sense only being able to make arrowheads at the forge if we have scrap metal, toolboxes and workbenches. Gameplay-wise it may make sense to force players to travel to certain areas at some point... but then we are not really forced to travel to DP, since arrows and arrowheads can be found on other maps, and given that we also have the rifle and plenty of ammunition for that plus snares and fishing lines it likely will be thousands of days until we are forced to go to DP for arrowheads. If at all.

Now maybe we could differentiate the bow & arrow system a bit - for example by introducing different kinds of arrowheads as has been suggested. The tip of an arrow could be hardened in a fire, which would make for the weakest kind of arrow. This would be able to take down rabbits (which should be really hard to hit), but be useless against bigger game, especially wolves. Then we could carve arrowheads from stone or deer bone, needing tools to do so. These would break easily, but might take down a wolf if lucky. Third type of arrowheads would be metal and could be made from scrap metal using quality tools and a workbench. These would make for the best arrows, able to take down wolves and deer. In my personal opinion, they should not be able to take down bears. To accomplish this feat, I think a crafted bow should not be sufficient.

Now this is taking me a bit further away from the OP, but I wouldn't mind having a compound hunting bow or crossbow and pre-fabricated "professional" arrows/bolts introduced into the game. This should be a very rare find, maybe one compound bow or crossbow in all the maps combined, or a maximum of two. And that one should be able to take down bears.

I like the idea of using different arrowheads, it is what I do in real life. Blunt wooden points for rabbit and squirrels, metal points for deer.

I have to disagree, however, on crafted bows not being able to kill bear. My bow, that I crafted by hand, is more than capable of killing any animal in Massachusetts, black bear included.

Why would a "crafted" bow not be able to take down a bear? My bow, made of birch, is more "powerful" by a substantial magnitude than the two compound bows my father and uncle used; ~60lb draw vs 45lb draw. My wooden arrows weigh more than the aluminum ones, and, since they are shorter, travel faster.

Describing something as being obviously better simply because it is "modern" is fallacious. My hand-made arrows are "professionally made" ;)

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6 hours ago, Wastelander said:

I did some research on the matter. Actually forging an arrowhead is no small task, likely beyond the capabilities of either a bush pilot or a medical doctor. A friend of mine took some blacksmithing classes and it already took hours to forge a simple knife. Arrowheads are even more difficult due to the need for proper shafting.

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/8084/8084-h/8084-h.htm#vi

this free e-book deals with the subject matter, I specifically linked to the part on fletching, but the book itself is a pretty informing read.

The important thing to realize about arrowheads is that they, unlike knives, don't really need to be all that sharp. Yes, having a sharp edge is what gives the arrow its killing power, but you don't need a razorblade. I make my broadheads from sheet-steel; cut them out via a template, and file the edges down into a single bevel. The sheer speed and impact of the arrow is what causes the edges to cut. If my broadhead-edges were razor-sharp, they would get damaged when they impact bone.

Making broadheads from sheet metal isn't that hard. Sure, forging an arrowhead is a pain, but most "trade points" were made from sheet metal for a reason: fast, easy, and cheap to make. Attaching the head is also relatively simple. You leave an elongated tang on the broadhead, and file/cut a groove into the shaft, perpendicular to the grain. You then slot this tang into the groove, and glue/bind in place. In all honesty, I find the shaft-straightening process and getting the fletchings straight to be more difficult than the attaching of the arrowhead.

And, finally, I agree. The forge, while interesting, was and is and awful mechanic, at least in my opinion, if just for the simple reason that forging metal is actually a pretty difficult process. As you say, knife-making takes hours, and that is if you know what you are doing, and are working with good steel. Why am I going to bother forging an arrowhead out, if there are plenty of spoons and sheets of sheet steel just hanging around that I can attack with a file?

I could ignore all the little liberties with realism that the game took before, but the forge was the first thing that made me sit back and go," wait, what? Really?"

Whenever I start a new game, I start out in Desolation Point, forge me a bunch of arrowheads, then scarper off, never to return. If it wasn't for the forge, I would have no reason whatsoever to go to DP.

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And, finally, I agree. The forge, while interesting, was and is and awful mechanic, at least in my opinion, if just for the simple reason that forging metal is actually a pretty difficult process. As you say, knife-making takes hours, and that is if you know what you are doing, and are working with good steel. Why am I going to bother forging an arrowhead out, if there are plenty of spoons and sheets of sheet steel just hanging around that I can attack with a file?

Precisely. I think the most sensible solution, and what I would do if I HAD to craft an arrow would be to grab a couple of nails and screws and glue/tape them to the arrow shaft. No need for forging.

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I get what are you all saying and yes there are plenty other options in real life but as TLD is right now getting rid of the forge will spoil the economy of the game, until we have more complex system for example: forging tools to help you make arrowheads from all the things that you suggested or simply craft the tools which will help you make arrowheads, or both combined somehow forging arrowheads is all we have, as a complex crafting recipe so from my experience there goes 50% long term objectives, the other 50% being crafting clothes. Here is another idea maybe we can use the forged tools like the crude knife to make arrowheads from other objects like aluminum cans and so on.   

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6 hours ago, Axtos said:

The game is early access. I think the only one reason for this arrowhead fix is to force more "beta tester" to the desolate point map. :normal:

I doubt that's the case. There are so many rifle rounds (as well as about 15 premade arrowheads) to be found in the game world that presumably 99% of all beta testers won't play a game that is long enough to truely run out of ammunition. Given they find all of it, ofc.

I thus rather believe the forge in DP is an attempt to create some incentive to encourage movement between maps and the planning of trips to fulfill a specific goal. Which I personally find a good idea gameplay-wise in general. My main problem about this concept is thus primarily the abundance of alternative ammunition already pointed out by @Hotzn... for I just fail to see the benefits of limiting the creation of self-made ammunition to one place when it's actually not necessary to create ammunition yourself at all (at least not prior to day 1500 or whatever).

Imo, it's nothing but psychological reasons that actually give people the feeling they are forced to go to DP. They are afraid to run out of ammunition at some point in the very far future and completely ignore the fact that they might likely either have died or abandonned their current game until then. It's not like anyone (especially not anyone who doesn't manage to survive for 200days+ anyway) truely has to ever visit DP.

In my current game (day 180 or so atm), I've solely used premade arrowheads, not fired a single gunshot and I have still 10 arrowheads (not to mention more than 160 shafts) left. Yes, animals do sometimes run away and disappear with your arrowheads, but the rate of arrows getting lost this way is so small (at least in my game) that I would easily get along for 500 days with nothing but the 15 premade arrowheads I found while discovering the maps. And afterwards I would still have 120 rifle round to use before I would ever need to forge my first own arrowhead.

To cut a long story short:

If the current model of ammunition abundance is to be kept, I personally very much doubt that making some kind of lower quality (e.g. one-time use) arrowheads at the workbench would do any harm to the game's overall balancing. For in a world already stuffed with plenty of easily available ammunition some more cheap ammunition doesn't really matter any more.

If, on the other hand, the long-term plan for amunition is to decrease its amount in order to make every arrowtip or bullet truely valuable, then I would prefer to keep the current system or, even better, remove the ability to create arrowheads entirely. But that's most likely a wish of mine I need to fulfill with a mod at some point for I believe it's more than unlikely that amunition is ever going to be a very limited and precious resource again. *sigh*

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There are many good ideas with this arrow head creation.

Either way I also think there should be at least one other option of creating a usable arrow/head other than having to craft an arrow head in the forge or finding arrow spawns!

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Wow great discussion here, not to mention lots of great info as well! 

 In my game, the only reason I plan to go to Desolation Point is to forge hatchets and knives. I will not make a single arrowhead. There are plenty of broken arrow's laying around the maps provide more than enough arrowheads anyhow. 

 Simple strategy: shoot an animal and it runs away.  If I follow it I get both the carcass and the arrow. But even if I don't  later I will find either the carcass and the arrow, and if  I don't find the carcass in time before rots, at least I will find the arrow. Eventually.

So...no need to forge arrowheads. 

 Making arrowheads out of cans & scrap would be interesting if included in the game.

If it can be done in real life, would be really nice if it was in the game.

 That being said, I don't think we should automatically know how to forge them or make them. 

The character should have to find instructions or a manual on how to do it. 

 

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1 hour ago, Wasteland Watcher said:

Wow great discussion here, not to mention lots of great info as well! 

 In my game, the only reason I plan to go to Desolation Point is to forge hatchets and knives. I will not make a single arrowhead. There are plenty of broken arrow's laying around the maps provide more than enough arrowheads anyhow. 

 Simple strategy: shoot an animal and it runs away.  If I follow it I get both the carcass and the arrow. But even if I don't  later I will find either the carcass and the arrow, and if  I don't find the carcass in time before rots, at least I will find the arrow. Eventually.

So...no need to forge arrowheads. 

 Making arrowheads out of cans & scrap would be interesting if included in the game.

If it can be done in real life, would be really nice if it was in the game.

 That being said, I don't think we should automatically know how to forge them or make them. 

The character should have to find instructions or a manual on how to do it. 

 

Many of my arrows did run in the back of wolfs over the thin ice on the coastal highway map and never ever come back.

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1 hour ago, Axtos said:

Many of my arrows did run in the back of wolfs over the thin ice on the coastal highway map and never ever come back.

Thanks for the advice! 
"Never shoot wolves on the ice on Coastal Highway with the bow." ;)

l'll just use a knife or axe -- no lost ammo. If I *really* need them dead fast I'll use a bullet.
On Mystery Lake, Pleasant Valley, or Timberwolf Mountain I'll use the bow.

 

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Just now, Scyzara said:

I doubt that's the case. There are so many rifle rounds (as well as about 15 premade arrowheads) to be found in the game world that presumably 99% of all beta testers won't play a game that is long enough to truely run out of ammunition. Given they find all of it, ofc.

I thus rather believe the forge in DP is an attempt to create some incentive to encourage movement between maps and the planning of trips to fulfill a specific goal. Which I personally find a good idea gameplay-wise in general. My main problem about this concept is thus primarily the abundance of alternative ammunition already pointed out by @Hotzn... for I just fail to see the benefits of limiting the creation of self-made ammunition to one place when it's actually not necessary to create ammunition yourself at all (at least not prior to day 1500 or whatever).

Imo, it's nothing but psychological reasons that actually give people the feeling they are forced to go to DP. They are afraid to run out of ammunition at some point in the very far future and completely ignore the fact that they might likely either have died or abandonned their current game until then. It's not like anyone (especially not anyone who doesn't manage to survive for 200days+ anyway) truely has to ever visit DP.

In my current game (day 180 or so atm), I've solely used premade arrowheads, not fired a single gunshot and I have still 10 arrowheads (not to mention more than 160 shafts) left. Yes, animals do sometimes run away and disappear with your arrowheads, but the rate of arrows getting lost this way is so small (at least in my game) that I would easily get along for 500 days with nothing but the 15 premade arrowheads I found while discovering the maps. And afterwards I would still have 120 rifle round to use before I would ever need to forge my first own arrowhead.

To cut a long story short:

If the current model of ammunition abundance is to be kept, I personally very much doubt that making some kind of lower quality (e.g. one-time use) arrowheads at the workbench would do any harm to the game's overall balancing. For in a world already stuffed with plenty of easily available ammunition some more cheap ammunition doesn't really matter any more.

If, on the other hand, the long-term plan for amunition is to decrease its amount in order to make every arrowtip or bullet truely valuable, then I would prefer to keep the current system or, even better, remove the ability to create arrowheads entirely. But that's most likely a wish of mine I need to fulfill with a mod at some point for I believe it's more than unlikely that amunition is ever going to be a very limited and precious resource again. *sigh*

I agree with you, it is all psychological. Most of the games that I play I don't even use the bow because for one it is hard to master I'm a terrible shot, and also the whole process of curing saplings, forging and so on it is time consuming. Once I gear up full clothing and food I tend to go for fishing and scare away deer in to wolves and some trapping so bow is almost useless to me. Some people say that the bow is good for scaring away wolves but with my aim I would need shoot 10 arrows to achieve that.

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Good discussion. I personally like having a forge in game at least for improvised tools. I'm not sure what the difference is currently between hatchets/knives and their improvised counterparts besides weight, but the forged ones should be far less effective IMO. For those that say the blacksmithing process is hard, the tool won't nearly be a professional product, just a rough, less effective alternative that will still take a lot of time and effort to create. Also I really like the "blacksmithing manual" idea. Maybe even make forging a skill? (If it's not already and I haven't noticed :P it probably is) I also like the fact that there is only one forge in an isolated location on the whole map. If there were more forges, the mechanic would feel too central to the game. I like it as more of a "sideshow", a place you wouldn't HAVE to visit until a very late stage in the game. Certainly not as the only source for arrowheads.

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2 hours ago, Claysmiff1702 said:

Good discussion. I personally like having a forge in game at least for improvised tools. I'm not sure what the difference is currently between hatchets/knives and their improvised counterparts besides weight, but the forged ones should be far less effective IMO. For those that say the blacksmithing process is hard, the tool won't nearly be a professional product, just a rough, less effective alternative that will still take a lot of time and effort to create. Also I really like the "blacksmithing manual" idea. Maybe even make forging a skill? (If it's not already and I haven't noticed :P it probably is) I also like the fact that there is only one forge in an isolated location on the whole map. If there were more forges, the mechanic would feel too central to the game. I like it as more of a "sideshow", a place you wouldn't HAVE to visit until a very late stage in the game. Certainly not as the only source for arrowheads.

They weigh more and are less effective. Plus, at least when they were first implemented, you couldn't repair them.

I don't know any more: I don't use the silly things..

The thing about forging metal being a skill/there being a manual: you can't really do that. You can read about how to forge metal all day long, but until you do it several hundred times, it just isn't going to work. To be a blacksmith, you basically need a chemistry degree, to understand how the metal is going to react when it gets heated and quenched.

Plus, you know, scrap metal is of an unknown quality. Most scrap isn't going to have a high carbon content, and, basically, if you want even slightly-effective sharp-edged tools, you use high-carbon (read: hard) steel. You don't just hammer a beveled edge onto it, however, you also have to quench the steel, then temper it, to a specific and very exacting level of hardness. Too hard, and it shatters or chips when you go to use it. Too soft, and it is useless. PLUS,  different parts of the edge need to be of different tempers. The edge is going to be hard, but the spine of the knife/eye of the hatchet is going to be "softer" and more flexible, better able to take the shock of blows and cutting into things.

..... See, all of this is why I never wanted forging implemented in the first place. Initially, I thought it was interesting, but over time the sheer level of immersion-breaking hilariousness of it just got to me. I always wanted The Long Dark to be something different than Rust or ARK, and this whole forging mechanic is exactly the same kind of inanity those games have with regards to crafting mechanics.

-deep breath-

My personal preference for different "types" of arrowheads would be the following:

1) A charred wooden head. Shave the end of the shaft down, then harden it over some embers. Perfectly usable for small game and target-shooting, and the head will effectively never get damaged.

2) Chipped glass. Not a "stereotypical" arrowhead, either, but something like this (figure3big.jpg).

Easy to make (knock some flakes off the edge of a piece of glass. 30 seconds of work), easy to affix (carve a groove into the shaft, put in some resin, smoosh in the flake), and if they break, who cares? You can get 100 more in minutes. And, finally, effective. These "types" of arrowheads (which were used by Mesolithic hunters who lacked access to skilled flintknappers and had to make their own) were just as effective as "prettier" bifaced heads.

3) filed sheet metal: Take a pair of snips, or even the pliers of a multitool, and cut some triangles out of a piece of thin sheet steel. Use a file, or even a rock/a concrete floor, to file down a bevel on each side. 

No need to forge out an arrowhead of unknown quality, or even travel very far. 

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Well that's pretty cool to know, makes perfect sense. I had no idea it was so complicated! I like the wooden head idea. Also in the part of the country I live in, obsidian (volcanic glass) arrowheads are all over the place. A couple of buddies are avid collectors and have found some awesome pieces, some thousands of years old! Wonder how abundant that stuff is in northern Canada.

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