Will torches change next week?

[Ruruwawa]

Sprinkled in threads here and on other forums I keep seeing a claim that, after the Sandbox update next week, torches will no longer scare wildlife.  I'm a newbie and a terribad hunter, so I do rely on torches for hunting.  Also, despite the endurance cost, I do wave wolves off with torches when I don't need meat -- to conserve arrows and bullets.

So, is it true?  If yes, can you point me to the discussion about this issue?  I'd love to understand the intent of the change, as well as the intended impact on new players.  I've trying searching this and other forums and also Google, but I just can't spot it.

Thanks!

[Scyzara]

Nobody who isn't part of the Hinterland developer team already knows exactly what the next patch will bring. Everything you've read are thus most likely just speculations or wishes from other players. I would strongly advice you not to worry about potential changes that may never be implemented anyway. And even if it really becomes impossible to pull torches out of campfires, you'll still be able craft torches at workbenches with reclaimed wood, cloth and kerosine.

Regarding the intent.. well, currently you get a pretty safe anti-wolf-forcefield (lit torch) for the cost of only four sticks. Hence you can run around constantly with little danger of getting attacked. Much safety for almost no effort - that's kind of a problem gameplay-wise in my book. If creating torches required more resources, people would probably use them with more purpose and thought than atm. 

[Ruruwawa]

Thanks for the reply Scyzara.  I've read a lot of your posts and respect your insights.

I've heard folks claim that flares will continue to be that "anti-wolf-forcefield" you mention but to me that has two problems.  First, only pre-disaster technology scares wolves, really?  I find that a bit immersion breaking.  Also, flares are a very finite resource so I prefer to conserve them as long as possible.

I don't mind working harder to create torches, or even having to expend precious cloth to craft them.  Assuming they still actually DO something, of course.  But as a newbie I'm a terribad shot.  If my only other options will be rifle stealth (another finite resource I currently never expend on wolves) or naked knife fights with wolves, I'm just not sure how I'll go about learning to shoot a moving wolf.  Lots and lots of deaths, I guess.

[Scyzara]

I personally very much doubt that the Devs are going to change the way how crafted torches work. My guess would rather be that torches will become craftable items ONLY and that the items pulled out of campfires will be named differently, e.g. "burning stick" or something. But again: That's just a theory. It's best to simply wait a few more days and stop worrying until then.

As far as hunting tips go: You can also drop a piece of meat, step back a little, take all the time you need to aim and shoot the wolf while it's eating the decoy. It's usually even possible to retrieve the decoy meat afterwards. 

[Ruruwawa]

Oh yeah, I forgot about baiting wolves.  Maybe the torch trick does work a little too well...

OK, you convinced me.  I'll stop worrying now

Overall I'm very excited for the Sandbox update, and most of the other stuff on roadmap for that matter.  Thanks for the help.

[Scyzara]

3 hours ago, Ruruwawa said:

OK, you convinced me.  I'll stop worrying now

Yay, mission accomplished! And you're welcome of course. 

[exeexe]

For balance it should be made in relation to people who has experience in the game.

[cekivi]

@exeexe Just note that the noobs comment doesn't really inform this discussion much. People play the game for different reasons and having mechanics in place to encourage experimentation and safe(ish) learning in new players is never a bad thing. Everyone is a "noob" at some point and dismissing an opinion because of someone only recently finding the game does not help grow the community or improve the Long Dark as a whole.

[Ruruwawa]

I don't think I've "demanded" anything here.  Just asked a question and got slammed for being a recent purchaser of the game.  And told to go back to Pilgrm mode (which I haven't played since day 2.), based on an unfounded assumption that I die a lot in Voyageur and Stalker (which I don't atm).  Torch is a factor for me, as I've already stated, but wow.

Thanks for the assist Cekivi.  I think you have a better grasp of the needs and desires of Hinterland.

[Patrick Carlson]

I'll just say here for the record, that the term "noobs" has absolutely no place in our community. All of us, (myself included) were new players in the game at one time or another. The new player experience is part of the joy of this game, at least for me personally. To see some of these sights for the first time...

In terms of Sandbox, our different experience modes are precisely intended to offer different experiences to different people at different times. We offer up to 5 Sandbox mode game saves. Personally, I play them all. You can experiment, be relaxed, be stressed, depending on how you want to live in this world. We see the variety of experiences The Long Dark has to offer as an advantage. 

[Ruruwawa]

Hey Patrick, thanks.  I got a good answer to my concern earlier in the day from Scyzara, so I'm all set with this particular question (and excited for next week).  I really appreciate the effort you put into the community -- your forums are a real breath of fresh air.

[Ohbal]

20 hours ago, Scyzara said:

 And even if it really becomes impossible to pull torches out of campfires, you'll still be able craft torches at workbenches with reclaimed wood, cloth and kerosine.

Apologies in advance for the smal off-topic here, but I need to ask about this. In the torch recipe it says you need kerosine, but I can craft torches with just reclaimed wood and cloth in my game. Is this normal? is it a bug? Is there a difference in adding kerosine to the mix? Does the torch last for longer/gives more heat?

 

[Scyzara]

9 minutes ago, Ohbal said:

Apologies in advance for the smal off-topic here, but I need to ask about this. In the torch recipe it says you need kerosine, but I can craft torches with just reclaimed wood and cloth in my game. Is this normal? is it a bug? Is there a difference in adding kerosine to the mix? Does the torch last for longer/gives more heat?

 

Hm, just tried it myself and you're right. At first I thought the game might take kerosine from the storm lantern, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Sounds like a bug to me, at least it's not normal. I'll report it in the bug section, thanks for mentioning it!

[Ohbal]

No problem!

I think you should be able to craft torches without kerosene, but they should be considerably inferior in quality and uses. For example, they could be harder to light (taking more time, so you wouldn't use them in inmediate response to a wolf), having some chances of not lighting at all. The duration could also be a factor. Getting torches from the fire when you just used sticks doesn't make any sense, but being restricted to such a basic tool as the torch by such a limited item as the kerosene wouldn't make a lot of sense either. 

 

[exeexe]

16 hours ago, cekivi said:

@exeexe Just note that the noobs comment doesn't really inform this discussion much. People play the game for different reasons and having mechanics in place to encourage experimentation and safe(ish) learning in new players is never a bad thing. Everyone is a "noob" at some point and dismissing an opinion because of someone only recently finding the game does not help grow the community or improve the Long Dark as a whole.

Yeah i know that, just dont balance the game around it. Its all that i am saying. @Patrick Carlson

also i wouldnt have used the word noob by myself in the first place, but since OP called himself it, i allowed myself to use it

Quote

 I'm a newbie and a terribad hunter ... as a newbie I'm a terribad shot.

.. I edited my post

[Ruruwawa]

Hey Exeexe, thanks for the post.  FWIW I don't personally have problems with "noob" vs "newbie" -- mostly because so many folks on forums these days aren't native English speakers.  Among English-speaking gamers there's a long history of "noob" being a derogatory term so that's probably where Patrick is coming from. 

As for your other point, I do support Hinterland's desire to protect their new player experience.  You, personally, might not need it anymore but Hinterland need to continue to increase sales to be successful, and that means a positive experience for new players.  Positive experience, as designed by Hinterland, not me. 

You are quite right that they also need protect and grow the experience for veteran players.  But it's not a Highlander ("there can be only one") decision.  With a dev team the size this game has they can do BOTH, and probably with a relatively tiny investment in new player experience compared to balance or ongoing content updates.  

[SteveP]

I wish this were a poll so we could just vote on it. I like the Torch as it is. If you feel you can play without it, then by all means.

It may be insightful to analyze why this is felt to be "too easy". Wolves can be evaded but with difficulty in certain locations. There is always a risk of bad weather snuffing out the torch esp around sunset when the wolves get more restless. It takes preparation and forethought to have enough torches; it makes the game more strategy oriented rather than arcade style. By arcade I mean you are adept at coordination and have developed muscle memory coordination that is so important in first person shooter games. I can't put that down; it's why many people want to play a game; I think the best is if the game supports both styles of play. I guess that might make an insightful poll. What other factors should be considered? Age I think. Other FPS Game experience would be another.

[Ruruwawa]

I too want to be rewarded for planning and good tactics, not just reflexes.  But like you I'm fine with reflexes being rewarded as well.

I think the problem with a poll is that the best answer for torches is almost certainly more subtle than a simple yes / no.  It's alpha and some important gameplay systems are still being added or changed.  In some cases the best answer could be to add those and then tweak for balance if needed.

Scyzara made a good point earlier in the thread about the cost of torches.  Currently it's 4 sticks + 7 in-game minutes.  That's extremely cheap for the powerful utility of torches and there's very little tradeoff (maybe a little pack space).  So one approach might be to tweak the cost to bring it on par with the utility.  Just one example--I'm sure there are other approaches that Hinterland have considered (including no change at all).  I guess we get to see this week. 

[Nasdaq401]

On April 16, 2016 at 11:04 AM, Scyzara said:

I personally very much doubt that the Devs are going to change the way how crafted torches work. My guess would rather be that torches will become craftable items ONLY and that the items pulled out of campfires will be named differently, e.g. "burning stick" or something. But again: That's just a theory. It's best to simply wait a few more days and stop worrying until then.

As far as hunting tips go: You can also drop a piece of meat, step back a little, take all the time you need to aim and shoot the wolf while it's eating the decoy. It's usually even possible to retrieve the decoy meat afterwards. 

Whoa, are you married to miss Cleo?

[Scyzara]

No, I am Miss Cleo. 

Just kiddin. It wasn't a really hard guess as it just makes by far most sense this was (imo).^^