Fat from animals

[6lv1]

In my opinion animals have meat, guts, furs, eyes (but who cares) and FAT

Now fat is a very important day to day survival thing to have no? It's useful in many cases like, making candle, cooking, treating wounds etc.

I just have the feeling it would be easy to integrate and offer a lot to the gameplay.

I'm pretty sure I haven't thought about everything, instead it would be great if everybody would participate and give ideas about how could fat be used in the game.

ideas so far

- Candles 
- better/different torches
- restart a torch
- fire starter/accelerant (rancid fat burns like hell)
- Burns wound treating
- Improving bandage
- Cooking (maybe it would add calories to the dish or whatever)
- usable with tools (such as the rifle cleaning tools)
- Fuel
- Soap
- pemmican
- food preserve (enhancement)

Your turn guys, how could we use fat in TLD?

 

[hauteecolerider]

I've often wished that I could harvest bear fat (the only animal likely to have separate fat from meat) for candles/fire starter making.

But as a longtime medical professional, I take issue with using fat for burn care or wound care. Fat, like butter, will only make thermal burns worse. While on a healing burn, it can be used to soften skin and help relieve peeling, it should not be used on open wounds or blistered skin! It blocks oxygen from reaching the healing tissues, encourages growth of anaerobic bacteria (MRSA, anyone?), and slows down wound healing. Personally, even for superficial abrasions, I find that keeping the wound clean and dry helps it heal much faster than covering it with antibiotic ointment. In fact, I hate using antibiotics because now we have MRSA, resurgent Chlamydia infections, and other issues rising out of overuse of antibiotics. 

So I wouldn't use fat as part of our medical kit in TLD. But yeah, I'd like it for cooking! Yum!

[6lv1]

1 hour ago, hauteecolerider said:

I've often wished that I could harvest bear fat (the only animal likely to have separate fat from meat) for candles/fire starter making.

But as a longtime medical professional, I take issue with using fat for burn care or wound care. Fat, like butter, will only make thermal burns worse. While on a healing burn, it can be used to soften skin and help relieve peeling, it should not be used on open wounds or blistered skin! It blocks oxygen from reaching the healing tissues, encourages growth of anaerobic bacteria (MRSA, anyone?), and slows down wound healing. Personally, even for superficial abrasions, I find that keeping the wound clean and dry helps it heal much faster than covering it with antibiotic ointment. In fact, I hate using antibiotics because now we have MRSA, resurgent Chlamydia infections, and other issues rising out of overuse of antibiotics. 

So I wouldn't use fat as part of our medical kit in TLD. But yeah, I'd like it for cooking! Yum!

very interesting point, good to have professionals around

- Soap making? I know it's the least of concern of a survivor. but hey, actually soap helps to keep an injury clean. It could be a "low" level antiseptic, which would lower the infection chance or something like that. But Soap making needs lye water (according to : http://www.survival-manual.com/homemade-soap.php ) which we could make out of ash and pure water. Maybe too complicated for what it gives, maybe not.

Any other ideas?

[Dirmagnos]

Fat could have a lot of uses, starting with already mentioned soap and ending with usage with food and medicine(like glycerin). Hell, you can even make fuel out of it.

[hauteecolerider]

@6lv1: Actually the point of soap is to remove foreign material which may serve as a nucleus for infection out of the wounds. It does so because of its unique properties that originate from one simple idea: the two ends of a soap molecule are polar opposites of each other. No, I'm not talking about an electromagnetic event! One end is hydrophilic, or water-loving, and attracts water; the other is hydrophobic and repels water. 

Quote

In studying how soap works, it is useful to consider a general rule of nature: "like dissolves like." The nonpolar hydrophobic tails of soap are lipophilic ("oil-loving") and so will embed into the grease and oils that help dirt and stains adhere to surfaces. The hydrophilic heads, however, remain surrounded by the water molecules to which they are attracted. As more and more soap molecules embed into a greasy stain, they eventually surround and isolate little particles of the grease and form structures called micelles that are lifted into solution. In a micelle, the tails of the soap molecules are oriented toward and into the grease, while the heads face outward into the water, resulting in an emulsion of soapy grease particles suspended in the water.

Read more: http://www.chemistryexplained.com/Ru-Sp/Soap.html#ixzz44937PCSL

That is why soap is so effective at removing potential causes of infection. It encapsulates things like bacteria, foreign material harboring viruses, and protozoans and makes it easer to flush them out of the wound using clean water. So technically, soap isn't antiseptic in the sense that it kills infectious agents within the wound, but antiseptic in the sense that it removes things from wounds. 

Oh, and I personally hate hydrogen peroxide in wounds. I know that is it's use in TLD, but H2O2 generates free radicals, and that slows down healing! I've seen what it does to exposed tissue and it is not pretty. I'd rather use spider webs --

Regardless, I'm an advocate of soap just for this reason alone. Clean wounds heal better and faster. That is a fundamental fact. Keeping the bacterial count on your own skin low is key to surviving the thousands of tiny cuts and abrasions and lacerations one tends to suffer when out in nature. Otherwise each one of them becomes infected, then you turn septic, and bring new meaning to the saying "death by a thousand tiny cuts."

[hauteecolerider]

11 minutes ago, Dirmagnos said:

Fat could have a lot of uses, starting with already mentioned soap and ending with usage with food and medicine(like glycerin). Hell, you can even make fuel out of it.

Again I have to take issue with the terminology used here. 

Glycerin by itself is not medicinal. It is hygroscopic, which means it attracts and holds water molecules from its environment. It is commonly used in diluted form in lotions because it does provide moisture, but in its pure form it is extremely dehydrating. In fact, the only medical use described for it on the Mayo Clinic website is for glaucoma +/- cerebral edema (the second use is not FDA-approved at this time). It reduces pressure by removing water from the body. 

It is sometimes used in pharmacology as a solvent for drugs that do not dissolve well in water or alcohol. 

But in the kinds of situations one may encounter in TLD, glycerin has no value at all. It requires medical equipment (tonometry for glaucoma, CT scan et al for cerebral edema) in a clinic or hospital setting for proper diagnosis of the appropriate conditions. Inappropriate use of it can cause seizures, major multiple organ failure, and death. 

Fats by themselves are not medicinal. They are, again, like glycerin, used in pharma as solvents or carriers to bring the active drugs to the site of action. That's all. In the survival situation, the biggest danger to long-term survival is infection, most notably bacteria and protozoans. And these guys thrive in fat. 

I'm not arguing against using fat in the game. I'd love to be able to make bone marrow soup - it would be a magnificent restorative potion following a severe wolf or bear attack - iron to replace loss of RBC's, fat to provide easily metabolized energy, protein to boost the immune system, oh I could go on! In adult animals, bone marrow is mostly fat . . . that's why dogs and wolves love it so much. Bears, too. 

[SteveP]

Fat specifically rendered fat, is very important for combining with jerky in order to avoid rabbit starvation where you only eat protein for weeks. It's called pemmican when mixed with pounded jerky.

+1 for harvesting fat separately from meat, bear fat being the most valuable!

[vancopower]

21 hours ago, 6lv1 said:

In my opinion animals have meant, guts, furs, eyes (but who cares) and FAT

Now fat is a very important day to day survival thing to have no? It's useful in many cases like, making candle, cooking, treating wounds etc.

I just have the feeling it would be easy to integrate and offer a lot to the gameplay.

I'm pretty sure I haven't thought about everything, instead it would be great if everybody would participate and give ideas about how could fat be used in the game.

My first ideas :

- Candles (long lasting)
- better/different torches
- restart a torch
- fire starter/accelerant (rancid fat burns like hell)
- Burns wound treating
- Improving bandage
- Cooking (maybe it would add calories to the dish or whatever)

Your turn guys, how could we use fat in TLD?

 

I don't believe that fat is used for any of those things, except for cooking:

Candles are made from wax,

Torches you need something more slow burning like a rag drenched in gas and oil,

fire starter hmm how? it is not nitro,

wound treating again how? there is tons of snow and ice just use that on burns, or swelling

Cooking however mmm, one of many traditional dishes in my county is made from meat and fat on dough similar to pizza baked in stone stove and is wow beyond delicious let me see if I can find a picture:

 

[6lv1]

43 minutes ago, vancopower said:

I don't believe that fat is used for any of those things, except for cooking:

Candles are made from wax,

Torches you need something more slow burning like a rag drenched in gas and oil,

fire starter hmm how? it is not nitro,

wound treating again how? there is tons of snow and ice just use that on burns, or swelling

Cooking however mmm, one of many traditional dishes in my county is made from meat and fat on dough similar to pizza baked in stone stove and is wow beyond delicious let me see if I can find a picture:

candles can be made out of deer fat, look :

http://www.survival-manual.com/homemade-candle.php

For the medical things, it was already discussed that fat would not really help in the end.

Not fire starter true, but accelerant why not.

- Fat could be a good item to keep the rifle working well too! (with the other mechanical tool that there will be in the game at the end)
 

 

[Schneidox]

I think fat could have its uses in the game in terms of fuel and food. I also feel that harvesting organs should be included too. Specifically, the heart and liver. They could have a calorie bonus or something like that.

[hauteecolerider]

There is a mod for Skyrim ("Hunterborn") which supplies that kind of experience. When you kill an animal, you can pick up the carcass and take it with you (with appropriate encumbrance - I usually only carry rabbits), skin it, collect meat, and collect miscellaneous. That last is a randomly-generated list of things like heart, eyeballs (used in alchemy, not appropriate for TLD), gut, antlers, and bone. The bone, IMHO, is the most valuable part after the meat and the hide - I can craft arrowheads and crude knives with it. 

I love the progression of skills in the mod. It makes it possible to start the game out with nothing and craft your first knife from a stone that you find foraging, then once you have some good bone pieces you can craft a better quality bone knife and arrows. 

Oh, and foraging! It is great for firewood, plants, and even randomly dropped loot. 

Probably not adaptable to TLD, but I keep thinking of this mod when I play this game, and wishing I could harvest bone as well as meat, hide and gut. 

[Vhalkyrie]

I'm all for harvesting bear fat for use as fuel.  Whale blubber is one of the world's oldest fuel source before the discovery of petroleum.  You can most definitely use fat for candle making.  Here's how the Alaskan/Canadian Inuit traditionally used seal blubber for lamps:

http://ku-prism.org/quicktimeVR/Websites/Blubberlamps.html

I'd love to see a processing method for bear far to use as a sustainable kerosene alternative.

[Dirmagnos]

13 hours ago, hauteecolerider said:

Oh, and foraging! It is great for firewood, plants, and even randomly dropped loot. 

Probably not adaptable to TLD, but I keep thinking of this mod when I play this game, and wishing I could harvest bone as well as meat, hide and gut. 

Well we did have a mechanic that allowed to harvest wood in this way.

So devs already have required scripts. Each cell on world map could have certain amount of "supply", allowing player to use "forage" or "scavenge" option. That supply resource is converted into items if player succeeds in using foraging option. Skill could have 10 gradation(same 100 skill points to gain, but higher quality items would require a certain minimum amount of skill to be found). Chance to find something would start at 20-30% and then gradually decrease to around 10%(and stay this way) as player searches thru area.

Foraging/scavenging would be rather time and energy consuming exercise, with chance of various effects or even wolf attack. Duration of foraging would act as modifier to chance of finding something, eg if scavenging for 2 hours have 30% chance of finding item, then every additional hour adds a 10% modifier to base chance, like spending 5 hours would have 36% chance of finding something.

Skill level would determine also amount of items that may be found. Max 1 item for skill up to 30, 1-2 items for skill 31-60, and 1-3 items for 61+.

Also, while higher skill level means that better items could be found, there is no guarantee that they will. There could be list that determines chances for each item to be found(in addition to minimal requirements). So first script determines if search was successful, then it determines how many items were found and then it determines what has been found. So even at 100 skill player can find just 1 stick on successful attempt.

With modifiers depending on area and location, eg there would be higher chance for finding scrap metal in loot near dam in ML or hook/line in coastal areas of DP and CH.

[SteveP]

23 hours ago, vancopower said:

Candles are made from wax,

Torches you need something more slow burning like a rag drenched in gas and oil,

fire starter hmm how? it is not nitro

I guess you haven't heard of tallow candles!

Fat works just fine as a slow burning accelerant. You can start fire using the cooking oil in tortilla chips for example! They burn like little torches.

How to make Tallow Candles

[hauteecolerider]

@SteveP Now that's what I'm talking about!

[SteveP]

On 2016-03-27 at 0:34 PM, hauteecolerider said:

So I wouldn't use fat as part of our medical kit in TLD. But yeah, I'd like it for cooking! Yum!

There is not much discussion of medical benefits of tallow; it was used to create salves.

Dehydration and chapped lips is one common complaint in cold, dry environments so tallow would be useful for rubbing on your skin and lips.

Here is a lengthy discussion of tallow's historical medical uses. Traditional Nourishing and Healing Skin Care

[SteveP]

More information regarding the benefits of using tallow on the skin to prevent dryness and redness caused by exposure to the cold and dry.

Would you lather your face in lard? It sounds revolting but devotees swear it’s the secret to softer skin

And more on the general topic of avoiding dry skin in cold climates:

Help Skin Survive a Cruel Season

[vancopower]

On 28.3.2016 at 7:30 PM, 6lv1 said:

candles can be made out of deer fat, look :

http://www.survival-manual.com/homemade-candle.php

For the medical things, it was already discussed that fat would not really help in the end.

Not fire starter true, but accelerant why not.

- Fat could be a good item to keep the rifle working well too! (with the other mechanical tool that there will be in the game at the end)
 

 

Ha if you look at it that way you can make anything from fat biodiesel, Soap, face cream,  even bombs. But what can you do in TLD with those conditions? They said that the character was pilot not scientist right? However fat can be used to oil up a gun yes, my uncle used sheep fat to oil his hunting rifle or was it pig fat I can't remember yea that would be good use for animal fat, keep guns in top condition it extends barrel life and protects against metal corrosion and rust. This is good we can harvest fat cook it up use it together with the rifle cleaning kit to clean the hunting rifle, but I believe that you will run out of bullets long before you run out of cleaning kit , maybe if we could craft ammo in the future this would be a great add on.

Accelerant however hmm, not so much because pure animal fat also contains water so there should be some kind of water extraction process first and even then I don't know I am not a biochemist but just doesn't seam right gasoline, and crude oil are product of 1.000 of years chemical reaction to reach that kind of potential. The funny thing about fire is, it is really difficult to keep it going at the start but once it is "developed" it will go on, I've tried every "accelerant" that I could think of when I was young  like alcohol, deodorant, coal, fat, hair, cooking oil, paper, dry mushrooms, moss, even crude oil nothing worked it would burn for a while but not enough to start up the big logs, and as I learned the best way to start up a fire is dry leaves or paper then add small sticks then a branch and then small log and hope that it will catch on or just poor gas and light up nothing is better accelerant than gas.

[Vhalkyrie]

2 hours ago, vancopower said:

Accelerant however hmm, not so much because pure animal fat also contains water so there should be some kind of water extraction process first and even then I don't know I am not a biochemist but just doesn't seam right gasoline, and crude oil are product of 1.000 of years chemical reaction to reach that kind of potential.

No biochemistry degree required.  This is ancient level technology.  Ever cooked bacon?  When you cook it, a lot of fat liquidizes and collects in the pan, right?  So when it cools to room temperature, what happens?  It turns white and semi solid.  You're right that it still contains a lot of liquid.  So if you want to use it for candles or lubricant, you would melt it down again for several hours to boil out the water, strain it to remove any particles (your great-great-grandmother probably did this with cheesecloth), then let it set again.  This process is called rendering.  After it has been rendered and sets, it is solid and hard.  This is called tallow.   (Actually lard in this case.  If pork, it's lard.  If beef or lamb, it's tallow). Tallow/lard can be used as candle fuel.  And yes, an accelerant because all fat burns.

If you were born before the 80s, you might remember that McDonald's french fries used to taste better.  They used to use beef tallow for the cooking fat.  In the mid-80s, they switched to vegetable oil blend because (1) vegetarians complained and (2) the low fat diet became popular.

2 hours ago, vancopower said:

when I was young  like alcohol, deodorant, coal, fat, hair, cooking oil, paper, dry mushrooms, moss, even crude oil nothing worked it would burn for a while but not enough to start up the big logs, and as I learned the best way to start up a fire is dry leaves or paper then add small sticks then a branch and then small log and hope that it will catch on or just poor gas and light up nothing is better accelerant than gas.

That's because an accelerant is not tinder.  An accelerant is unlikely to start a fire on its own unless its extremely flammable, like gas whose fumes are even flammable.  All tinder burns fast, so you can't use it for a sustained fire - its only purpose is to burn fast and hot to light a longer burning fuel source (like a firelog which must be very dry - if your log isn't dry enough, it will be harder to ignite). Dry leaves, paper, moss, and sticks are tinder - the drier the better.  You would need to apply your accelerant to your tinder then light the fire, just like in the game.  The accelerant makes the fire hotter so hopefully your log catches faster (and in conditions that are less than ideal like wet/damp areas).  We all have been warned against grease fires - burning fat and cooking oil is extremely hot and dangerous.

[vancopower]

23 minutes ago, Vhalkyrie said:

No biochemistry degree required.  This is ancient level technology.  Ever cooked bacon?  When you cook it, a lot of fat liquidizes and collects in the pan, right?  So when it cools to room temperature, what happens?  It turns white and semi solid.  You're right that it still contains a lot of liquid.  So if you want to use it for candles or lubricant, you would melt it down again for several hours to boil out the water, strain it to remove any particles (your great-great-grandmother probably did this with cheesecloth), then let it set again.  This process is called rendering.  After it has been rendered and sets, it is solid and hard.  This is called tallow.  Tallow can be used as candle fuel.  And yes, an accelerant because all fat burns.

If you were born before the 80s, you might remember that McDonald's french fries used to taste better.  They used to use beef tallow for the cooking fat.  In the mid-80s, they switched to vegetable oil blend because (1) vegetarians complained and (2) the low fat diet became popular.

That's because an accelerant is not tinder.  An accelerant is unlikely to start a fire on its own unless its extremely flammable, like gas whose fumes are even flammable.  Dry leaves and paper are tinder.  You would need to apply your accelerant to your tinder then light the fire, just like in the game.

Well you can not just use tinder, and accelerant hope for the best that much I know. It is a slow process  you can not put paper and then add fat, and like magic fire is catching on it  the accelerant will indeed burn up your tinder and die out.  In fact yea I recommend this mechanic to be implemented immediately, there should be stages of fire where you could start of with sticks and move on to bigger things, at least they should put time limit same as coal but lower 10 min maybe to add logs. Also I just cooked bacon how do you know? are you at my house ? my great gamma made soap from fat so I'am told. Here is another interesting Idea soap from animal fat, the survivor should stay clean too right in order to avoid sickness, also fat can be used for medical purposes too, mixed with black pepper you can rub it on your chest and it will keep you warm and toasty my Gramz made that too

[Vhalkyrie]

1 minute ago, vancopower said:

Well you can not just use tinder, and accelerant hope for the best that much I know. It is a slow process  you can not put paper and then add fat, and like magic fire is catching on it  the accelerant will indeed burn up your tinder and die out.

Oh yeah totally agree.  Fire starting is definitely a hard skill.  I've done it a few times on recreational camping trips, but it is tough, and I would be very concerned if I ever had to do it in a bushcraft survival situation.

[vancopower]

7 minutes ago, Vhalkyrie said:

Oh yeah totally agree.  Fire starting is definitely a hard skill.  I've done it a few times on recreational camping trips, but it is tough, and I would be very concerned if I ever had to do it in a bushcraft survival situation.

Also I have noticed  mild wind actually helps starting up the fire but that is another topic altogether, we are here about fat:

Here is another interesting fact you can preserve meat in fat, and a jar you need to boil it I think.

[Tbone555]

im VERY for this idea. the simple addition of fat in this game could solve many of my day-to-day survival problems i have while playing this. +1

[elloco999]

6 hours ago, vancopower said:

Ha if you look at it that way you can make anything from fat biodiesel, Soap, face cream,  even bombs. But what can you do in TLD with those conditions? They said that the character was pilot not scientist right?

Well, it doesn't take a scientist to make a candle out of animal fat. Even soap isn't that hard, although it would help to have some tools like a thermometer to check when the temperature of the lye water and the fat are the same.

I actually made a candle using the fat from the bacon I cooked once. Just to try it. I put it in the metal cup of a used up tea light and put a wick in made of toilet paper. It burned quite good and lasted a good time considering it was only a little bit of fat. It did make the entire house smell really strongly like bacon. That didn't make the wife happy Using rendered fat would help a great deal with this particular problem.

Here's a tip if you ever try something like this. Make sure the wick isn't hanging over the edge of the container you're using! It will seep up the fuel and leak it down the side of the container. After 15 min there was a small puddle of fat on my desk... Lesson learned.

[Boston123]

Candles/lamps made from rendered animal fat are often called "grease lamps" and are very, very old. Examples have been found from the Neolithic (New Stone Age, around 10,000 years ago), and they were probably in use even earlier, just without pottery.