Feedback and... Arrows (another voice to the chorus)


Alexandre Lange

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Hi, people.

Im new to TLD, but Im totaly addicted to it. I bought it at Jan 28th (2016), but I have already played 49 hours according to Steam. As usual (I think), I had a handful of intense death experiences before I found the survivor in me (or got lucky enough to gather the basic tools soon enough). Now I know: wrong choices really kill you; dont count on luck, 'maybe' is your worst enemy; I truly fear, and I avoid risks; I run away; and, sometimes, I feel brave enough to (or have no other option than) face the danger. I can feel every aspect of the survival struggle. The game is just amazing.

Now, about something that really sounds out of place in a game so carefuly crafted to give us the right feeling of the survival experience: forged arrowheads. I know the devs (successful) effort to make everything count, to make things rare/unique, but... this game is about basic needs and survival. Among the survival tools, the bow (improvised, called 'survival bow' for a reason) and a few 'simple arrows'. Force the player to forge arrowheads (in one single place in the game) to use a survival bow with simple arrows is immersion breaking for me. For improvised bow and arrows, any piece of sharp/piercing metal (saw), stone (hammer) or bone (hatchet) could serve as material to make an arrowhead. The woods for the bow and the arrow shafts are rare enough to make them properly precious, in my opinion.

Without forged arrowheads, maybe the player will shot more arrows less carefuly, but to give proper use to bow/arrow you still need to make every shot count: you still wasting the precious arrow shafts if you lose it in the running deer/wolf hide or if you break it for nothing (you can even make the arrows degrade faster and/or break easier), and a missed arrow fired at a charging wolf can always kill you. Finally, the bow will degrade anyway, it doesnt matter if you shot two arrows twenty times each or twenty arrows a couple of times each; without a bow, your twenty barely used arrows are useless.

Please find another way for the arrows: forged arrowhead is not a survival thing. Use the forge to make improved arrowheads, if you want it (I dont), or the metal tools/parts you couldnt find otherwise.

And thanks, devs, for the jewel TLD already is.

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I agree with this and think that you should be able to craft simple arrows (perhaps without metal tip that break and bounce. Useless against bears and iffy against wolves but mostly fine against rabbits for example) should be possible without the forge and the forge allows you to craft advanced arrows with the metal tip. To have to traverse all the way to desolation point just to get any form of arrow seems to go against the survivalist immersion to me.

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There's been a few forums about this that all agree: trekking to Desolation Point just for arrowheads is really annoying. Especially when sharpening the end of the stick and hardening it in a fire (basically not using a tip at all) worked fine for ancient peoples. These type of arrows should be added to the game at the cost of degrading much faster than regular arrows since they would become blunt and splinter overtime faster than ones with a proper metal arrowhead.

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I think the point of the forge is to make you realize that you have to plan for the contingency when inevitably, your supply of found arrows dwindle. It shouldn't be too easy to do this and the forging process reflects that. I would like to see even more evolved crafting mechanics for flint, chert, obsidian or bone arrow points, but that's because I like the game for it's primitive survival techniques.

This is not a zombie game after all. If you want combat, seek another game.

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This is not a zombie game after all. If you want combat, seek another game.

I don't think anyone here is looking for a more combat heavy game. I definitely am not. However, since the current number of guaranteed arrowheads is only two (the rest is at the mercy of random chance) it feels really arbitrary to have to go all the way to Desolation Point to forge more. Personally, I liked the crafting mechanic a lot more when metal was super scare but you could make arrowheads at any workbench.

Consider, for instance, a new player. They've never played the game before, don't know about the forums and don't want to check the wiki. They start playing in Mystery Lake. They find the arrowheads, make two arrows and are having a good time surviving on the coastal highway. Then one arrow breaks and the other is lost. Now what? They wouldn't know where the forge is. In fact, there are no indications in the game that forging is even possible aside from the vague "suitable for metalworking" description of the hammer. Would this hypothetical player (which was all of us once) then find the game fun when they know they should be able to do something but it's arbitrarily restricted to one map with no hints that this is the case?

Or consider veteran players. I've seen more than a few comments on similar threads of players that start on Desolation Point, forge a dozen arrowheads and then never come back because they dislike the map and what it has to offer. Does that mechanic encourage dynamic, decision based play? Or is it more of an indication of players arbitrarily doing a task that can't be done elsewhere (a chore - a bad thing to have in a game!) so that they can actually begin playing?

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DP has limited hunting potential and very limited loot. I am running out of matches so I have to move in another week or two there. I have lots of arrowheads now but coal is very abundant so I can return in future to get more if necessary. After a certain point, survival becomes rote, simply doing the same thing over and over so I like the scarcity of resources which means one must make the long term plans for that contingency.

Yes, games have arbitrary constraints to "make" you extend your play. I think the psychology of this is that previously we had an easy resource and then it was "taken away". It arouses your feelings of ownership: (hey that's mine! how dare you take it away!)

In real survival, there may be very serious constraints such as water or food or matches that must be addressed so I like that the game evolves these in a "sensible" fashion. I think if the devs ever give us flint arrow points, maybe people will stop griping. But then, now they seem to gripe about the idea of flint! Hey, until you have mastered fire making tools, you have not resolved your fire making issues. Fire without matches or special tools is darn hard to make!!

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I think the point of the forge is to make you realize that you have to plan for the contingency when inevitably, your supply of found arrows dwindle.

Wth is that even supposed to mean ? What contingency ?

Main issue is overcomplicated feature that has been added and then artificially adjusted without any need or real point.

Forge is a good idea, but instead of pulling arrowhead crafting option from work bench and adding it to forge, just to justify its existence, devs should add new, advanced crafting options. Even existing two, for knife and axe, would made the cut for now(altho end-result hardly justifies usage of forge, but still), with more in the future. But arrowheads ?

While making arrowheads with usage of thermal processing is an option, its also requires a shitton of experience and end-result can be spectacular. But since player hardly possess such level of experience(he cant even craft simple simple stone/bone tools), then making something of any quality on forge is rather questionable.

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You are out of sync, SteveP. Im talking about immersion in a survival experience, you are talking about... something else (combat? zombies? really?). Its not hard to obtain dozens of forged arrowheads: start a game at Coastal Highway, go to the Gas Station, loot the place to find the saw and the hammer (easy to spawn there; just restart if you dont get it in your first try); go to Desolation Point, make lots of metal scraps with the saw, get a lot of coal at the mines, go to the Riken, forge dozens of arrowheads; done. To find enough food to survive the first day is harder than this.

My point is: the forged arrowhead per se (alone) is not a way to limit resources; at all. Its just something out of place in a scenario about survival and improvised tools. A survivor just get all he/she can, and make things as simple and practical as possible; to make it viable on the run. It just dont feel natural to me to travel the world to one single place, sit at a forge there to make forged arrowheads and craft SIMPLE ARROWS to use it with a SURVIVAL BOW. Thats not simple or practical at all, in my opinion.

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I think the point of the forge is to make you realize that you have to plan for the contingency when inevitably, your supply of found arrows dwindle.

Wth is that even supposed to mean ? What contingency ? :?

:D A contingency is simply a future event. A contingency plan lets you prepare and be ready for that eventual certainty.

After a certain point, survival in the game becomes rote, simply doing the same thing over and over. [glow=green][fade]BORING[/fade][/glow]Therefore I like the eventual scarcity of resources which means one must make both short & long term plans for that contingency. [glow=red][fade]HAPPY[/fade][/glow]It means I have to plan for a trip to Desolation Point Forge, or start the game there and build up a supply of arrowheads for the eventuality of exhausting my supply of bullets and then later, arrows. For each kind of future eventuality the game could have a technical solution that involved mastering some skill and exploring and discovering new critical resources. This essentially adds interest to the game. One could argue that if you make the game very simple but provide lots of certain items like bullets, then the game can continue indefinitely. To this I say: :roll: :cry: :evil: :twisted: :P

There are several future events that will occur in the game. 1) end of found food items 2) end of bullets 3) running out of fuel, tinder or fire makers 4) running out of meat and food or water 5) wearing out of clothing items 6) running out of cloth or metal for repairs 7) running out of any one of the critical resources of an area. 8) running out of birch/maple saplings 9) storms and extended storms; extreme cold or wind, fog or snow, sleet perhaps. 10) the wearing out of the whetstone and rifle cleaning kit (supplies). 11) the jamming of the rifle after it's condition gets too low without cleaning.

An example of a short term plan is to forage wood, build a fire, boil water. Slightly longer term is ensuring adequate supplies and tools to conduct a hunt. Longer term is making the trip to DP and building up the supplies for a multi-day forging campaign.

You should be able to replenish your rifle cleaning kit by making patches from cloth for example. Solvent you must find and conserve. A whetstone is merely a suitable type of rock like sandstone or concrete. Did you know you can sharpen a metal knife on the bottom of a ceramic coffee cup? 8-) :D

con·tin·gen·cy noun: contingency; plural noun: contingencies

1) a future event or circumstance that is possible but cannot be predicted with certainty.

"a detailed contract that attempts to provide for all possible contingencies"

synonyms: eventuality, (chance) event, incident, happening, occurrence, juncture, possibility, fortuity, accident, chance, emergency

"we've tried to imagine and provide for all possible contingencies"

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Forging lets you take scrap metal and turn it into a better quality item. It let's you shape that item and then temper it (steel & high carbon iron) Tempering is necessary to make the arrow head able to hold an edge and stay sharp. If you want to hunt larger game, you need sharp tips on the arrows. There is no question that arrowheads of various types were necessary for hunting; it's what the aboriginal and paleolithic people did. They used flint or other knappable stones even though these stones are rare. Once metal arrow heads became available, these were used preferably. Forging was an essential activity of the frontier. Forging can be done in an improvised forge made of stones and bricks and a device for adding air to create a hot enough fire. Forging is actually faster than trying to find the right metal and attempting to file it to shape.

When hunting large game, you need a broadhead arrowhead by law. It must be large enough and very sharp. This is for safety and to prevent the loss of game animals which escape before they die. Arrows kill by making the large animal bleed rapidly.

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Now we have reviewed the reason that forging is in the game (game play, extending interest) as well as the real world reasons for forging arrowheads (ease of making, durability). I think it also helps to dispel the attitude that doing certain things is easy and straightforward. In survival in a post apocalyptic world, you can't just run to the store for all the tools and items you need. You have to improvise.

Previously, in the game, you simply made an arrowhead from scrap metal. Easy peasy right? Not. Anything malleable enough to hammer into shape (ie copper or aluminum) won't hold an edge; steel is difficult to work with and even harder to shape with a file. Just to cut a piece of steel, you need to heat it red hot in a forge.

You can get steel red hot in a regular old fire & lots of hardwood fuel but having some type of improvised bellows makes it much MUCH easier. Basically if it's cherry red (not orange) you are in the good temperature range. Once the metal turns bright orange or yellow, it has already lost its metallurgical qualities that would make the best cutting edge. For those with masochistic tendencies or true curiosity about forging technology see this link. Overheating Steel

If you want to be picky, how about complaining about the lack of a bellows or the all important quenching operation or the fact that 99% of found metal is NOT suitable for high carbon steel forging? Railroad spikes and pieces of car or truck springs are good for forging. Bed frames, tables and shelves are probably not suitable metal being mild steel. Mild steel can however be case hardened and work hardened but not by quenching. It gets complicated.

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Thanks for sharing these. Interesting look at an ancient weapon. They even try out a fossilized shark tooth!

Do any of you have first-had experience with these "primitive" bows?

--Patrick

I do, as a matter of fact.

A major point about "primitive" bow making that one has to recognize is that, really, any type of wood can be used to make a self-bow (the "type" of bow we can make in-game), you just have to vary the length and dimensions of the limbs. I have actually made a semi-decent small-game bow from white pine before. It certainly wasn't that powerful, nor did it last that long (it "set" after a day or two of use), but it let me shoot a couple of rabbits for dinner.

For my bowmaking, I prefer birch. This is mostly because I have a nice stand of Grey Birch not too far from my house. I have also used maple, oak (a bear), hazel twigs ( a "bundle bow"), and Autumn Olive.

Secondly, the bows we are making in-game are of green wood, and are ultimately going to be absolute rubbish. Because they are still green, they are ultimately going to "set" (aka when the limbs of a bow stay bent even when the string is removed), and this greatly decreases the power of the bow. In "real life" bowmaking, you do most of the shaping when the stave is still green, but ultimately want to finish the bow when it is seasoned.

The above is why I ultimately consider self-bows to be a rather "unappealing" survival weapon, on top of the actual skill it takes to build one. While a greenwood bow can indeed be powerful, ultimately it will lose that power, and you will have to make another one. And another one. And another one. Or, you can let the stave season ( "whitewood" bowstaves can season sufficiently in about a week), but that is a week+ you don't have a weapon.

If I had/have the option to bring in a properly-made selfbow into a survival situation, then certainly it would be preferable. Making one "in the bush"? Most of the time (again, IMO), you would be better served making a sling, a set of bolas, and a spear. The only bow I would really make in a survival situation would be a "bundle bow", which requires MUCH less physics-knowledge, "adequate" materials, and time. Still have to make arrows, though. And a Bundle bow would only realistically be effective on small game.

For the amount of time it would take to make a self-bow and a single arrow, you can make a sling and be kinda-decent with it. Ammunition for a sling is "free", and while it does require a lot of practice to use, bows are the same, practice-wise. You can't really pick up a bow and be able to lethally-wound an animal from more than 10 feet away. If you miss with a bow and damage your arrow, you are SOL. Miss with a slung rock? Who cares?

IRL, I have made a sling and within 2 weeks or so, could hit a human torso-sized target from 30 feet away 9/10 times.

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Do any of you have first-had experience with these "primitive" bows? --Patrick

I do, as a matter of fact.

IRL, I have made a sling and within 2 weeks or so, could hit a human torso-sized target from 30 feet away 9/10 times.

A long spear would be my weapon of choice for defense but perhaps the atlatl for hunting. Have you tried the atlatl? If I were surviving, I would also focus on various types of traps and fishing for calories. in a post-apocalyptic scenario, reloading ammunition would be another approach. Also, a metal bow might be a thought, albeit quite heavy. Cross bow would be best I think as a craftable weapon if given a few weeks to prepare one and a few months to perfect it.

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Do any of you have first-had experience with these "primitive" bows? --Patrick

I do, as a matter of fact.

IRL, I have made a sling and within 2 weeks or so, could hit a human torso-sized target from 30 feet away 9/10 times.

A long spear would be my weapon of choice for defense but perhaps the atlatl for hunting. Have you tried the atlatl? If I were surviving, I would also focus on various types of traps and fishing for calories. in a post-apocalyptic scenario, reloading ammunition would be another approach. Also, a metal bow might be a thought, albeit quite heavy. Cross bow would be best I think as a craftable weapon if given a few weeks to prepare one and a few months to perfect it.

Atlatls require a decent knowledge of physics to build as well, similar to bows. The "thrower" has to be of a certain flexibility, and so does the javelin. A "hand javelin" and an "atlatl dart" are completely different.

While I wouldn't want to build a bow in a survival situation, I would much rather build a bow than an atlatl. More effective, at a wider variety of ranges, and MUCH easier to carry. Arrows are 2 feet and a couple of ounces. Atlatl darts are 5+feet.

Not to mention that atlatls "fell out of favor" at the end of the last Ice Age for a reason. They are only really effective at close range on large targets. At the end of the last Ice Age, game got smaller and smaller (the "megafauna" started to die out as the climate changed, not to mention us killing and eating all of them), and we changed weapons as a result.

Atlats are suited to open plains, bows are suited to forests. All with exceptions and technicalities, of course.

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