More weapons

[EternityTide]

You could harvest munitions for scrap metal and accelerant (the powder charge). Making arrow heads out of brass cartridges sounds feasible.

I suppose you could also use the shiny brass as a fishing lure as well.

I'm not entirely certain why Hinterland has been so silent on the topic of scopes.

[Jebru]

I don't think there needs to be any more guns or bows. But I do like the idea of a hand weapon like a spear. That would work much better than the hunting knife for scaring wolves off their kills, or even killing a wolf that attacks you.

[totorbanana]

Personally I think both a revolver and a shotgun would have their place in the game (with great scarcity of ammo of course).

...of course on the more weapons topic, I also very much want to see a spear. I also think a slingshot for hunting rabbits would be wonderful.

Yeah. Definitely the revolver part. Although the shotgun? That would have to be REALLY rare, because let's be honest. I very much doubt everyone in the Canadian wilderness would be toting a shotgun. But it would really be great to be able to find a .357 or .44 revolver or a 9mm automatic.

[toebar]

Shotguns are a lot more common than handguns in Canada. But I do agree they should be rare-- all weapons should be more rare--finding them should be a thrill, not an expectation.

[Schaumrolle24]

Shotguns are a lot more common than handguns in Canada. But I do agree they should be rare-- all weapons should be more rare--finding them should be a thrill, not an expectation.

Absolutely agree on that!

The thrill isn't yet given ingame.

There should be ONE handgun and ONE shotgun. All with malfunction/jamming mechanics, of course.

I like the idea of BlackGlennJr on the 1st page very much: A classic six-shooter and a two-barrel-shotgun would fit in perfectly.

The Shotgun

Only short range (up to 30 yards), only 2 shots. Emergency defense weapon, limited hunting capability.

The Revolver

Short to medium range (up to 50 yards), can fire 6 shots in close succession. Versatile weapon.

The good, old Enfield-Rifle

Short to long range (up to 150 yards), 10 rounds bolt-action, thus slow rate of fire. Emergency defense weapon, good hunting capability

This would be more than enough firearms, for a survival game. But also one, or two self crafted weapons like (throwing-)spear and boomerang would have their raison d'être.

But most import is: All of the weapons (as for the ammo, of course) have to be very, very rare; respectively hard and time consuming to craft. It should'nt be unusal to get no hands on a firearm during 1 or even 2 weeks of exploring.

It must be a thrill to find a firearm. You have to enjoy every finding of an appropriate shot of ammo. You have to be euphoric, when the magazine of your gun is fully loaded, for one single time. You have to think hard about: Is it really worth and necessary to shoot now? I has to be an event, when you squeeze the trigger, - followed by a full, loud bang, accentuated by a long reverberation.

[draebor]

I'm really torn on the idea of more weapons... if they did add more I would want it to have a net-zero effect on the difficulty of survival. One of the most unique and refreshing aspects of this game for me is the fact that I have to really weigh the cost of pulling that trigger because I know the next bullet won't be coming soon.

On the other side, though, I think the addition of some basic craftable weapons would add to the realism without being too much of a game changer. The survival bow is a good example, but I think arrowheads are too rare and difficult to produce. Maybe arrows without broadheads would be enough to kill a rabbit. I'd love to find a (non-crafted) recurve bow aluminum arrow shaft with about the same rarity as the rifle. A fire-hardened spear would be probably the first thing anyone would make in a survival situation - not for throwing but for jabbing. Slingshot would make sense for small game like rabbits but I think you run some balance risks with that since ammo would be plentiful... it would have to have zero effect on anything larger.

A larger variety of guns might be nice IF it was done in a way that preserved the current scarcity of weapons and ammunition. You would absolutely find shotguns in rural Canada. Hunting firearms are actually quite common here, and even more so in remote regions. Handguns would have to be much MUCH more scarce... law enforcement and military (and criminals) would be the main sources of those, and I don't really know how well they'd fit into a solo survival scenario except maybe as a wolf-defense.

[Boston123]

Shotguns are a lot more common than handguns in Canada. But I do agree they should be rare-- all weapons should be more rare--finding them should be a thrill, not an expectation.

Absolutely agree on that!

The thrill isn't yet given ingame.

There should be ONE handgun and ONE shotgun. All with malfunction/jamming mechanics, of course.

I like the idea of BlackGlennJr on the 1st page very much: A classic six-shooter and a two-barrel-shotgun would fit in perfectly.

The Shotgun

Only short range (up to 30 yards), only 2 shots. Emergency defense weapon, limited hunting capability.

The Revolver

Short to medium range (up to 50 yards), can fire 6 shots in close succession. Versatile weapon.

The good, old Enfield-Rifle

Short to long range (up to 150 yards), 10 rounds bolt-action, thus slow rate of fire. Emergency defense weapon, good hunting capability

This would be more than enough firearms, for a survival game. But also one, or two self crafted weapons like (throwing-)spear and boomerang would have their raison d'être.

But most import is: All of the weapons (as for the ammo, of course) have to be very, very rare; respectively hard and time consuming to craft. It should'nt be unusal to get no hands on a firearm during 1 or even 2 weeks of exploring.

It must be a thrill to find a firearm. You have to enjoy every finding of an appropriate shot of ammo. You have to be euphoric, when the magazine of your gun is fully loaded, for one single time. You have to think hard about: Is it really worth and necessary to shoot now? I has to be an event, when you squeeze the trigger, - followed by a full, loud bang, accentuated by a long reverberation.

A double-barrel shotgun and a revolver are essentially never going to jam. Firearms jam when the casing/shell fails to extract from the firearm. Firearms where the casing/shell are removed by the user cannot jam. That is one of the many reasons they are commonly used in the backcountry. That, and they tend to be rather powerful. 12G buckshot will kill wolves with ease, and will definitely hurt Black Bears (although I would want to use slugs for a more immediate kill). .38 Special, which is probably the most common revolver cartridge in the world, is capable of taking down wolves.

I know in Alaska, bush-pilots are required by law to have "survival kits" in their planes, 24/7. Many of them include firearms, both for hunting and for self-defense. My uncle lives in Alaska, and he knows a bush-pilot that keeps a double-barreled shotgun tucked under the seat. Birdshot for small game, buckshot for large game, and slugs for bears and other things that go bump in the night.

[Schaumrolle24]

Did I read some subliminal agreement in your post?

I served one year in the german army (7./FschJgBtl 263), and out of personal interest, I am quite familar with the most types of firearms, especially older systems. I can almost perfectly agree with you - almost. Because you should never say never.

It starts already on the subject ammunition. What is about wet cardboard shotgun shells, corroded or otherwhise damaged catridges, old, faulty primers (personal experience!), and so on. Moreover, there are numerous reports of the 2nd World War, that even bolt-action rifles jammed for various reasons. And you know, that they are also very reliable weapons.

But I don't want to start the everlasting debate about realism, because TLD is not real life. Not even a simulator. And therefore, weapons should jam, if the player doesn't take care of his weapon, or he has to use a battered gun. Regardless what type of firearm it is now.

PS: My concern here is about weapon malfunctions of any kind (including misfires, etc.), not jamming per se.

[joki]

No sniper rifles, shotguns, dynamit, bazookas or tanks please. I'd heavily prefer stone-age weapons, that you might actually be able to find / make in the wilderness. Some of the items that are currently in the game, feel a bit unrealistic already, to be obtainable. E.g. even the rose hips look a bit weird in the middle of all this ice and snow.

[Smeden]

I literally posted this back in July of 2015 viewtopic.php?f=59&t=6041. The first item on it was a spear. Over 6 months later not a single word on the possibilities of it. We did seem to get Whetstones and hacksaws which I don't recall anyone ever asking for..... Personally I give it as follows:

+1 spear

+1 slingshot

I'd also like to see an actual axe and be able to cut down trees. Single tree, 5 hours to harvest, 30 pieces of wood. Sounds reasonable.

[toebar]

No sniper rifles, shotguns, dynamit, bazookas or tanks please. I'd heavily prefer stone-age weapons, that you might actually be able to find / make in the wilderness. Some of the items that are currently in the game, feel a bit unrealistic already, to be obtainable. E.g. even the rose hips look a bit weird in the middle of all this ice and snow.

actually, rosehips are one of the few fruits that you often see still on bushes into winter here. I'm curious-- what else do you feel is unobtainable? Shotguns would be perfectly plausible. A sniper rifle would not, but a rifle with a scope would not be uncommon. There's not much point making stone-age weapons when there's better resources present (excepting things like spears, which take little effort to be effective).

[toebar]

I'd also like to see an actual axe and be able to cut down trees. Single tree, 5 hours to harvest, 30 pieces of wood. Sounds reasonable.

Reasonable, but being able to fell a tree might be difficult to program... E.g. do you foresee that tree would be removed from the landscape?

[Smeden]

I'd also like to see an actual axe and be able to cut down trees. Single tree, 5 hours to harvest, 30 pieces of wood. Sounds reasonable.

Reasonable, but being able to fell a tree might be difficult to program... E.g. do you foresee that tree would be removed from the landscape?

As it stands now the limbs and sticks are removed from the landscape temporarily and respawn on a rough timer of about 2 days. Could do the same with trees but much, much longer respawn, like 100 days. It's not like anyone is going to be going out and clear cutting the countryside.

To me it just doesn't make sense that some tools and weapons are available while others that would be just as likely or more likely aren't. There's no good reason a spear shouldn't be available to craft. If we can use a forge to make small arrowheads we should be able to make spearheads or by harvesting bone from animal carcasses for fishhooks and arrowheads.

[Schaumrolle24]

Agreement.

When there's a hatchet for breaking down limbs, there should be an real axe for both, limbs and cutting down trees. Accompanied by appropriate time exposure and calorie consumption.

[Bill Tarling]

I'd also like to see an actual axe and be able to cut down trees. Single tree, 5 hours to harvest, 30 pieces of wood. Sounds reasonable.

Reasonable, but being able to fell a tree might be difficult to program... E.g. do you foresee that tree would be removed from the landscape?

As it stands now the limbs and sticks are removed from the landscape temporarily and respawn on a rough timer of about 2 days. Could do the same with trees but much, much longer respawn, like 100 days. It's not like anyone is going to be going out and clear cutting the countryside.

I think you've missed the programming issue (as mentioned by Toebar)...

To make the trees available for cutting down would mean having to convert every single instance of the current trees [which are display meshes with a no-go blocked collision path] into trackable items. You would then also need to track each state of each tree item, as well as each harvested item. You would also need to add in an axe and the applicable mechanisms [a hatchet isn't made for chopping down large trees].

To regrow a tree every couple of days makes little sense as well -- branches can continue to break and fall in storms, but trees should be expected to magically regrow overnight. There are a few larger branches which respawn, but that's mainly for gameplay purposes.

If you magically regrew trees in a day or two, then players would complain "well why doesn't the cat tail, rose hip, old mans beard, mushrooms (etc) replenish too. Likewise you also couldn't logically pick and choose which trees could be chopped down, because players would then complain "why can't I chop that other tree too?"

Given that all the maps would need to be redone [removing all the static meshes and replacing them with trackable items] doesn't really give much in the way of new gameplay value considering how much would have to be redesigned. There's already plenty of wood available.

As a side note, chopping down trees and carrying them back is not like simply having some real life firewood. You're not going to fell a tree and chop the whole thing into firewood in the middle of winter. Having done it when I was young, and living in an area and climate extremely similar to the TLD conditions, it took a number of experienced men and a team of heavy horses to transport the harvested trees and logs -- the wood had to be dried enough before they could be used in the kiln. :?

While I can understand everyone wanting to chop down trees [as in the Forrest or any dozen of other games], but it simply wouldn't give enough return value to redesign everything at this point. Perhaps it might be considered for the sequel which would take place in a warmer season, but it's not really a sub-zero winter activity you would want to take on -- especially when there is already a huge surplus of available wood.

[toebar]

Thanks Bill-- that is what I had been implying, but I lack the technical understanding to explain it as well as you have here.

[EternityTide]

pre-felled trees/logs would still be an option, however.

[Smeden]

As it stands now the limbs and sticks are removed from the landscape temporarily and respawn on a rough timer of about 2 days. Could do the same with trees but much, much longer respawn, like 100 days. It's not like anyone is going to be going out and clear cutting the countryside.

I think you've missed the programming issue (as mentioned by Toebar)...

To make the trees available for cutting down would mean having to convert every single instance of the current trees [which are display meshes with a no-go blocked collision path] into trackable items. You would then also need to track each state of each tree item, as well as each harvested item. You would also need to add in an axe and the applicable mechanisms [a hatchet isn't made for chopping down large trees].

To regrow a tree every couple of days makes little sense as well -- branches can continue to break and fall in storms, but trees should be expected to magically regrow overnight. There are a few larger branches which respawn, but that's mainly for gameplay purposes.

If you magically regrew trees in a day or two, then players would complain "well why doesn't the cat tail, rose hip, old mans beard, mushrooms (etc) replenish too. Likewise you also couldn't logically pick and choose which trees could be chopped down, because players would then complain "why can't I chop that other tree too?"

Given that all the maps would need to be redone [removing all the static meshes and replacing them with trackable items] doesn't really give much in the way of new gameplay value considering how much would have to be redesigned. There's already plenty of wood available.

As a side note, chopping down trees and carrying them back is not like simply having some real life firewood. You're not going to fell a tree and chop the whole thing into firewood in the middle of winter. Having done it when I was young, and living in an area and climate extremely similar to the TLD conditions, it took a number of experienced men and a team of heavy horses to transport the harvested trees and logs -- the wood had to be dried enough before they could be used in the kiln. :?

While I can understand everyone wanting to chop down trees [as in the Forrest or any dozen of other games], but it simply wouldn't give enough return value to redesign everything at this point. Perhaps it might be considered for the sequel which would take place in a warmer season, but it's not really a sub-zero winter activity you would want to take on -- especially when there is already a huge surplus of available wood.

If you read my post again you'll see I put for a rough 100 day respawn on trees. Also the idea breaking the current mesh isn't necessary. All they would need to do is add in individual trees scattered around just like they did with the limbs, sticks and branches. None of those existed prior, you just hit the forage option and clicked how many pieces of Cedar, Fir and fire plug you'd like to harvest up to the then maximum. If they can add in those individual items without breaking the mesh, they can add in some trees. In short, I didn't miss the programming issue, you just assumed there would be one whereas they've already bypassed this same issue before.

I'm well aware of the process of felling trees and allowing them to "cure/dry" for a season before they are good firewood. I, too, have lived in environments similar to TLD and know how difficult it is. I also know that people do it everyday. When you have a game in Alpha and players who have already gone well over 2/3 of a year and many even closing on a year with no problem, the drying process shouldn't be so much of an issue.

At each major update where a new region is added I completely restart the game, always in Mystery Lake. Why? Because as far as we know Mystery Lake will be the starting point for everyone when the game goes live. I've hit well over 200 days after each of these updates, so again, the drying process shouldn't be a problem.

As for the timer issues, I don't see any. They clearly have timers for every stick, branch and limb across multiple maps for once they've been harvested. Adding in a third of that current number shouldn't be a problem. Will it need more processing? Sure. But since we're still in Alpha it's not like there isn't going to be more processing coming anyway with new item additions and maps.

[Schaumrolle24]

Thanks alot Bill, for that detailed und very informative explanation!

I also think that it isn't a realistic option, cutting down one of those tall firs, you can see everywhere. But the smaller sized trees, like the ones at pleasant valley farmhouse, should be manageable ("Accompanied by appropriate time exposure and calorie consumption").

It could represent smaller/younger cedars, firs and pines. This kind of trees, can be spreaded over the map here and there. Maybe by replacing a few of the tall ones.

The player could easily distinguish, which tree is in a proper size for his axe (not for the hatchet, for sure).

To develop this further: Lets say it takes 5 hours and 1.000 calories, to chop down a tree. Once it's cutted to the ground, one tree yields 30-50 pieces of wood. Now you have to choose how many hours to you want to spend on harvesting - just like a carcass.

Likewise as for hides and guts, a game rule could be implemented, that requires freshly chopped wood, has to be dried for 15 days (example) in an enclosed room, until it can be used as fuel.

Edited January 24, 2016 by Guest

[Dirmagnos]

Considering abundance of respawnable wood i dont really see why cutting down trees is needed.

Not to mention that that it would simply be a waste of time and energy.

Those trees and frozen solid, so cutting it down would be quite a feat, especially with hatchet(they are rocksolid). Then you have to cut/saw it somehow into logs, then you have to transport and dry that wood. Player would spend a week to deal with just one tree... only dealing with that tree, putting everything else on hold.

[Smeden]

Considering abundance of respawnable wood i dont really see why cutting down trees is needed.

Not to mention that that it would simply be a waste of time and energy.

Those trees and frozen solid, so cutting it down would be quite a feat, especially with hatchet(they are rocksolid). Then you have to cut/saw it somehow into logs, then you have to transport and dry that wood. Player would spend a week to deal with just one tree... only dealing with that tree, putting everything else on hold.

Everything about survival is time and resource management. Trees themselves aren't exactly "rock solid" even in cold environments. Is the outer inch or so harder? Yes. But that's all, other wise the tree would not survive at all because it couldn't circulate nutrients. There have been plenty of times when I have a good supply of wood(15-20 fir/20-25 Cedar), water(30-45 liters), food(25-40kg meat) and all my weapons, tools and clothing are repaired and capable. That doesn't mean sit on your butt for a day or two and relax.

Quite literally what you do on the days you don't "NEED" anything can drastically change your chances of long term survival. If I have 2 good clear days where I don't "NEED" anything, then absolutely I'd drop a nearby tree, harvest it and set it to drying in the cellar or some other suitable place. There have been far too many times where I get 3 straight days of storm/severe cold weather conditions where going outside wasn't an actual option if you didn't want your clothing being destroyed or chance Hypothermia.

From the Pleasant Valley Farmhouse the closest limbs are either to the east just across the road(2-3 limbs) or west, past the orchard, south across the road heading towards the broken barn(3-6 depending on spawns). Consider it takes 45m and 188 calories per limb. Let's say you do good and find 5 limbs by the time you hit the green barn. That's about 6 hours(travel time added in) at roughly 1200 calories. That's 940 calories just in harvesting and another 260 calories in travel which I think would be reasonable for the distance and effort. The only advantage of this wood collected is that it can be burned immediately. But if I don't need it immediately then felling a tree and harvesting it would not only give me a future supply, but leave the limbs already on the ground available for immediate use should I "NEED" to harvest for immediate use later and the time and calorie usage should be about the same over all because all you're doing is changing out travelling time and energy for felling a closer tree.

I fully realize that most people probably don't prepare the way I do. I never harvest sleeping bags, but save them and put them in satellite locations where I hunt and travel. (1 each in Green Barn, Red Barn, Cave to West(not the bear cave) and Cave entrance to Coastal Highway). I only carry a bearskin bedroll when I'm travelling across multiple maps. This cuts down on my weight and if a storm come up unexpectedly I can duck out of it in any of those locations and be able to a) pass time faster, b) have a higher level of warmth available if needed, c) if I have to track a kill down in any of these directions I have a place to camp out and prepare the meat immediately. So each of these locations has at least 15 cedar, 5 liters water, 3-5 plugs, 2 bandages, antiseptic and matches, besides the sleeping bag. Occasionally I'll even leave canned food there if it was present to begin with just in case.

The worst thing you can do is nothing when you think you're prepared.

[toebar]

Trees themselves aren't exactly "rock solid" even in cold environments. Is the outer inch or so harder? Yes. But that's all, other wise the tree would not survive at all because it couldn't circulate nutrients.

I agree that are not 'rock solid' in winter. They are still choppable, the size of the axe (and density of the wood!) will determine the effort needed. edit: I still do not recommend cutting green wood though-- dead wood will be much easier to burn.

However, trees are essentially dormant in the winter--they do not circulate nutrients during this time and may freeze nearly solid. Most of the tree trunk is already dead tissue (i.e. wood aka xylem), so freezing will not harm it.

The living portion of the trunk is found near the surface in the inner bark (known as cambium) and has several mechanisms that prevent the cells from being damaged from freezing and/or prevent freezing. This portion makes up a very small proportion of the trunk, so it is fair to say that most of the trunk is able to freeze without consequence. :geek:

more info on this here if you like

[Dirmagnos]

Trees ARE rocksolid. And they ARE completely frozen thru.

There is a reason why there is no trees in Antarctica and one of those is extremely cold weather. With constant temperatures dropping pretty much every night below -40 in game, they will freeze thru in matter of days. There is no circulation of nutrients under those conditions.

Even if winter were to end, most of the forest would end up dead.

Youd have greater chance to fall a tree if you go at it with a big bat, instead of an axe. While they are solid, they are also fragile and you may have better chance at breaking it, rather than cutting it down.

Even if you will fall a tree, then you need a saw(that we dont have) to cut it(pls dont even joke about using a hatchet/axe). And it would take quite a lot of calories and time even with warmer weather.

Since most trees were/alive alive prior to incident youd have to dry them for a month be4 youd be able to use them without dying from co2 poisoning.

Best bet would be going for dead trees, since they had no circulation in them to begin with, plus cold will do rather good job at breaking them, plus they wont require as much time to dry. Altho we again run into "no saw" problem.

As with many aspects of game, most people completely discard effect that extreme cold has on various objects and view the issue from the standpoint of just low(but not extremely low) temperatures.

[illanthropist]

Having (too many) more weapons changes the game dynamic from "exploration and food/shelter for survival" to "I wonder what it's like to kill with ."

If I wanted a to play a game about killing with different weapons I would not be playing TLD.

I'd probably be playing Call Of Dummies or Falldown 4.

I too agree with this, the challenge of TLD would be lost, the scarcity of resources and choices is what makes it fun, sticking in loads of weapons you might as well replace the wildlife with zombies.

As for axes and tree felling, it's survival not homesteading, be thankful we don't have to dry out the small limbs of deadfall before use

[Gleudal]

Having (too many) more weapons changes the game dynamic from "exploration and food/shelter for survival" to "I wonder what it's like to kill with ."

If I wanted a to play a game about killing with different weapons I would not be playing TLD.

I'd probably be playing Call Of Dummies or Falldown 4.

+++++1