Ability to throw sticks into fire in bunches & not only 1by1

[thinair]

3 hours ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

We'll see. We have some changes to how we handle firestarting and fires in general in mind, so we'll probably make those changes first and then see if it still makes sense to look into stick management options.

It's possible sticks are too abundant now, which explains why people would rather hoover the world for them and carry them around vs. grabbing sticks to start the fire and then using the hatchet to harvest more from Branches and bigger pieces of Softwood or Hardwood from Limbs.

Thanks for the answer and for consideration.

And with all honesty, i personally think that it is actually too abundant. When sticks were introduced, i literally stopped chopping wood. For example, while staying in Jack rabbit island in CH map, 10-15 minutes of game time (4-6 hours tld hours), can yield 60-110 sticks. My last stickpicking/branch breaking day, actually yield 113 sticks, and it was all from jack rabbit island, with branch braking only by hand. That's a bit over 13 hours of burning time. I probably have like 600+ sticks laying in my cooking hut.

Timberwolf mountain map, area around The HUT, has even more sticks. I have used 3 save slots, current run 105 days, another one 50 days, and 3rd one 140days, in all of those, i barely used hatchet.

Once again, just my opinion... but i'm kind of positive/have a feeling, that game veterans going to agree with sticks being too abundant.

[RaZ0R]

5-6 pickup sticks

[cekivi]

9 hours ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

We'll see. We have some changes to how we handle firestarting and fires in general in mind, so we'll probably make those changes first and then see if it still makes sense to look into stick management options.

It's possible sticks are too abundant now, which explains why people would rather hoover the world for them and carry them around vs. grabbing sticks to start the fire and then using the hatchet to harvest more from Branches and bigger pieces of Softwood or Hardwood from Limbs.

I still prefer cedar and fir (better burn temp/length to weight ratio) over sticks but if there's lots of sticks where I'm going I will pick them up. Being able to pick up enough sticks for a small fire in an emergency (freezing, out of water) has saved my bacon more than once so I wouldn't recommend getting rid of them. Perhaps making the time to melt snow/boil water proportional to the heat output of the fire may encourage people to go back to using limbs?

[Raphael van Lierop]

Yeah, if you're going to wander the world stockpiling every stick you find, you're going to end up with a lot of them, no doubt. The real intention behind them is to have a convenient/accessible but not very effective fuel source to just get a fire going if you're in a pinch. If you are planning to hunker down over the long term you're going to want some more efficient fuel. That said, if you've gathered 50-100 free sticks there's not much incentive to get the better fuel. We can do some balancing around the weight/burn time/temperature formulae but all that does become a bit of a UI headache. 

I think abundant sticks fuels (ha!) the collecting instinct, but it's possible they are too efficient right now. They aren't really meant to be a primary fuel source. One way to balance it would be to introduce limited fuel "slots" on fires -- ex. 8 slots that can be filled with sticks or softwood/hardwood or some combination but you can't just pile endlessly. That would make the choice of fuel more interesting (a bunch of sticks just means a shorter fire that you have to stoke more often), but I imagine some players would hate losing the potential for near endless "free" fires...

[Ohbal]

12 minutes ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

The real intention behind them is to have a convenient/accessible but not very effective fuel source to just get a fire going if you're in a pinch.

I'd say reducing either the amount of them in the world, or changing the respawn rates could be a good first step to fix this up. As soon as you get that experimental branch going, I'm sure a lot of us will jump in to provide as much feedback as possible on any mechanic introduced. 

Quote

but I imagine some players would hate losing the potential for near endless "free" fires...

Nothing, or almost nothing, should come for free on a survival game, as most players will take that road without a second thought. Don't worry, surely we will all complain for some time, as we did with the parasites in the last update, but with just a bit of tuning the waters will calm again  

[ScottJ]

It would be interesting if sticks could have a 'Rotted' rating, so maybe some sticks are old and will only burn a bit, and some have freshly fallen and burn as they do now. 

[Ohbal]

Once the seasons are implemented I would even go as far as to say wood has to be dried in order to be used efficiently. Most of the sticks we gather are lying on the snow, and therefore I'd bet (not really an expert on the matter) that it would take quite some time and effort to build a fire with them. 

It would be cool to see a mechanic aim this way, in the same way as we have to cure the skins and guts, we should have to dry the wood in doors. How much time should it take, I don't know. They could gradually dry making it easier to start a fire with them. A range of conditions maybe? as @ScottJ just suggested: rotted, wet, humid, dry. Just a quick though about how it could work. 

[Aldi14ua]

Sticks should just burn faster. Want to cook or boil so toss in fire a considerable amount, just like in a real life.

[cekivi]

1 hour ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

Yeah, if you're going to wander the world stockpiling every stick you find, you're going to end up with a lot of them, no doubt. The real intention behind them is to have a convenient/accessible but not very effective fuel source to just get a fire going if you're in a pinch. If you are planning to hunker down over the long term you're going to want some more efficient fuel. That said, if you've gathered 50-100 free sticks there's not much incentive to get the better fuel. We can do some balancing around the weight/burn time/temperature formulae but all that does become a bit of a UI headache. 

Well, you should be able to use sticks as a primary fuel source just a really, really inefficient one. Conversely, sticks could always take the place of kindling. I've often wondered how we could get a roaring fire going with just a giant log and some birch bark. Keep the spawn rates the same just cap the fire at 5C and 45min if you're using sticks. You could keep the fire going indefinitely (just add more sticks) but it wouldn't be hot enough to keep you warm in a blizzard and it won't burn long enough to last the night if you're sleeping. That would give plenty of incentive to have larger fuel supplies available. To simulate kindling you'd have to have either a slot to put in sticks while starting a fire or make cedar and fir have a 15 min burning prerequisite before they can be burnt. Sort of like coal.

1 hour ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

I think abundant sticks fuels (ha!) the collecting instinct, but it's possible they are too efficient right now. They aren't really meant to be a primary fuel source. One way to balance it would be to introduce limited fuel "slots" on fires -- ex. 8 slots that can be filled with sticks or softwood/hardwood or some combination but you can't just pile endlessly. That would make the choice of fuel more interesting (a bunch of sticks just means a shorter fire that you have to stoke more often), but I imagine some players would hate losing the potential for near endless "free" fires...

I personally wouldn't like this system (limited fuel slots) since it seems rather arbitrary and gamey. I've kept fires going all day. Plus, if shelter heating ever becomes an issue (as has been identified on various Alpha wishlists) limited fuel slots would greatly curtail the possibility of keeping a small fire going all day in your shelter.

[cekivi]

1 hour ago, Ohbal said:

Once the seasons are implemented I would even go as far as to say wood has to be dried in order to be used efficiently. Most of the sticks we gather are lying on the snow, and therefore I'd bet (not really an expert on the matter) that it would take quite some time and effort to build a fire with them. 

It would be cool to see a mechanic aim this way, in the same way as we have to cure the skins and guts, we should have to dry the wood in doors. How much time should it take, I don't know. They could gradually dry making it easier to start a fire with them. A range of conditions maybe? as @ScottJ just suggested: rotted, wet, humid, dry. Just a quick though about how it could work. 

I like @ScottJ's (welcome to the forums Scott! ) idea as well. Sticks on the snow would still be quite dry. Sticks buried/frozen in snow less so. Whether a decay or curing mechanic is worth implementing for sticks though I don't know but it should definitely be considered for wetter seasons.

[Scyzara]

20 minutes ago, cekivi said:

Keep the spawn rates the same just cap the fire at 5C and 45min if you're using sticks. You could keep the fire going indefinitely (just add more sticks) but it wouldn't be hot enough to keep you warm in a blizzard and it won't burn long enough to last the night if you're sleeping.

I definitely like this line of thought, as it makes sense both from a gameplay and realism point of view.

We already have a maximum fire duration and heat limit for all fuels (except coal) of 12 hours and +80°C atm. Adding some diversification to this limit depending on the fuel type would certainly feel more "natural" than a slot limitation.

Sticks might provide little heat for less than an hour (e.g. max. +5°C for 45min as @cekivi has suggested), reclaimed wood might burn a little hotter but still for a rather short maximum period of time (e.g. 5 or more pieces of reclaimed wood might provide max. +20°C for 2h) and cedar and fir limbs might be capped at +50°C for 10h (basically to allow you to sleep through the night outdoors with a fir/cedar fire).

Adding coal to a fire might have the same effect as currently, providing a maximum heat bonus of 200°C for 12h. 

If people mix different fuel types, the heat and duration cap should always depend on the amount of the most efficient fuel type (sticks<reclaimed wood<cedar<fir<coal) used. You should ofc. not be allowed to start a fire with a piece of cedar and add sticks until you reach 50°C for 10h afterwards.

Here are some examples what I mean:

---------------------------

Example 1:

Someone starts a fire with a piece of cedar and adds dozens of sticks afterwards. The fire should thus be capped at the +6°C +1h bonus from the piece of cedar firewood (because sticks are theoretically capped at +5°C/45min and the one piece of cedar is already "better" than that). The fire could thus be kept alive with sticks, but it would never exceed a 6°C heat bonus or a duration longer than 1h unless other fuel types except sticks are added.

Example 2: 

Someone starts a fire with a stick and adds 2 pieces of cedar afterwards. Then they add several more pieces of reclaimed wood. The max. heat bonus from the one stick and two pieces of cedar would be +1°C/7min (stick) +12°C/2h (cedar) =+13°C and 2:07h alltogether. Adding more pieces of reclaimed wood (theoretical max. +20°C and 2h) might increase the heat limit to +20°C, but the maximum duration would still be capped at 2:07 (because reclaimed wood can never exceed 2h). 

Example 3:

How to build the most efficient fire possible: Pretty much like in real life, I guess. ;p

Start a fire with 5 Sticks, then add 5 pieces of reclaimed wood, then add your preferred number of pieces of cedar or fir firewood (or possibly some coal). Et voila, your fire will gain all heat and duration boni. (= without coal +75°C for 12h:45. Which is pretty similar to the current maximum limits). 

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I know this probably sounds quite complex at first, but it actually isn't. For the players it's basically just important to know they need to add the different fuel types in the right order (sticks -> reclaimed wood -> limbs) to gain the best results. Which i personally find very intuitive anyway.^^

[hauteecolerider]

I would definitely go for longer respawning cycles plus a condition change where some sticks are rotted and thus not so suitable for fire. On the other hand, I don't want to spend a lot of time looking for good sticks if 60 - 80% of them are unsuitable for fuel. Not a good thing if I'm caught out in a blizzard.

As it stands, the way sticks are handled in the game currently means I can travel more lightly, with just the essentials (tinder, accelerant, water, a few things of food, clothes and fishing line(s)) in my pack. When I need to make a fire, I just look for them and get one going. If there's a limb close by, I would break it down for a longer fire (especially useful if I'm cooking up a deer carcass).

[cekivi]

2 hours ago, hauteecolerider said:

I would definitely go for longer respawning cycles plus a condition change where some sticks are rotted and thus not so suitable for fire. On the other hand, I don't want to spend a lot of time looking for good sticks if 60 - 80% of them are unsuitable for fuel. Not a good thing if I'm caught out in a blizzard.

As it stands, the way sticks are handled in the game currently means I can travel more lightly, with just the essentials (tinder, accelerant, water, a few things of food, clothes and fishing line(s)) in my pack. When I need to make a fire, I just look for them and get one going. If there's a limb close by, I would break it down for a longer fire (especially useful if I'm cooking up a deer carcass).

Duration caps wouldn't stop that style of gameplay. Especially if you're traveling light you'll likely only find 6-10 sticks anyways.

[vancopower]

On 14.6.2016 at 8:15 AM, Raphael van Lierop said:

We'll see. We have some changes to how we handle firestarting and fires in general in mind, so we'll probably make those changes first and then see if it still makes sense to look into stick management options.

It's possible sticks are too abundant now, which explains why people would rather hoover the world for them and carry them around vs. grabbing sticks to start the fire and then using the hatchet to harvest more from Branches and bigger pieces of Softwood or Hardwood from Limbs.

Please do not decrease sticks they are only free thing in the game. Everything else you have to work for Hard!

[Axtos]

Duration for sticks is nonsense. In reality older sticks are better than fresh. And to much sticks? In a wood? After a blizzard? Near of my home are also wood and after a storm like here you can find much more than only sticks to pick up.
Don't nerf the sticks please!

[nicko]

14 hours ago, vancopower said:

Please do not decrease sticks they are only free thing in the game. Everything else you have to work for Hard!

Pease do not decrease sticks? hrm yeah i'm thinking the same thing? sticks are free but you still have to travel and collect them like real life (so not free really cause your expending resources to get them) when this first stick version came out I always thought there was not enough. but now I think they sort of had it right from the start. either way I trust what the HT team are doing / planning they pretty much get it right so far

[Ruruwawa]

I like sticks the way they are.  They are easy to understand for new players, a good tool to deal with a turn of bad luck or weather (make tinder or a brand), and very far from an "I win!" button.  

I really don't see the upside to adding new complexity to one the most used gameplay systems, unless it adds fun or a sense of accomplishment.  Truly realistic fire building (nursing the ember with tinder, then fir needles, then tiny twigs, etc) might be a rewarding experience but it's also a huge overhaul of the current system.  But limiting us to 8 slots for fuel just feels an arbitrary half-measure, adding tedium and breaking immersion.  

If there's a need to balance sticks vs other fuels, why not just balance it with the variables already in the game?  Weight, burn time, respawn, ratio of branches to sticks.

Regarding rotten sticks -- in real life you'd never carry them back to the fire.   I say this as someone who's picked up a LOT of sticks in my life (heating solely with wood during cold Wisconsin winters plus lots of backcountry trekking and living).  The real life way to deal with a rotten stick is to drop it back on the ground immediately -- if you ever touched it at all.

[vancopower]

On 17.6.2016 at 9:46 AM, nicko said:

Pease do not decrease sticks? hrm yeah i'm thinking the same thing? sticks are free but you still have to travel and collect them like real life (so not free really cause your expending resources to get them) when this first stick version came out I always thought there was not enough. but now I think they sort of had it right from the start. either way I trust what the HT team are doing / planning they pretty much get it right so far

Yes but you never travel only for sticks right they just happened to be on your way, and since you will travel a lot to find other resources anyway then picking up few sticks will not be too much inconvenience. Decreasing the number of stick will cause just that. If they are rare you will eventually have to go on stick quest however chopping fir and cedar limbs will be much easier so they will become more useful than sticks, which kind of makes no sense so I think sticks should be left alone.

Another alternative is increase branch spawn rate and decrease stick spawn rate. That way they will be little more hard to get but not much.

[nicko]

I think there should be all sorts of wood to collect all time, the more the better on some maps.

[SteveP]

On 2015-08-05 at 4:12 AM, Hillbilly said:

I have a huge pile of sticks, ready for my next cooking water boiling session

It would be nice when you went to pick them up if the game would ask how many you wanted to pick up, as it does when you go to drop them.

SO

+ 100

Why don't you keep your spare sticks in a locker or other container? Then it's easy to get the amount you need easily without resorting clicking 100 times. There should be more containers such as baskets or crates for this. Currently the small crates don't behave like other containers. It's nice that you can see the contents in them.

[tnbp]

I found this topic wondering about how the people who have long, long, long games going manage to not run out of wood to cook with.  Eventually, every axe in the game would go dull and become ruined.  I was theorizing that they must be collecting and using tons and tons of sticks.

I'm an avid camper and canoer in my real life.  If I didn't have a hatchet, it would make my getting firewood harder-- but not impossible.  In the game, once you run out of a sharp hatchet, unless you collect hundreds of sticks, you die.  That just doesn't make much sense to me.  I like the idea of being able to mass add them so that lack of firewood (or an axe) won't be the ultimate cause of my demise.

[cekivi]

True @tnbp but part of that is in real life you can pick up and burn anything versus the rather limited options available in a game.

[tnbp]

5 minutes ago, cekivi said:

True @tnbp but part of that is in real life you can pick up and burn anything versus the rather limited options available in a game.

Yup, I get it.  That's all the more reason why I wouldn't like the idea of nerfing the number of sticks.  I think sticks should become simply easier to use.  There was a Hinterlands post a ways back up in the topic that said that sticks aren't meant to be used as a primary fuel source-- but hatchets are finite, which means that all fuel sources beyond sticks are also finite.  I just don't like thinking that I can't make it past day 300 without knowing eventually I'll die due to starvation due to not having enough fuel to cook any food.

[Vinceofpyrenees]

I think it would be great to pass fire from brand to another one when carrying fire, so we could carry fire like in the "Fire war" of Jean-Luc Besson

[cekivi]

@Vinceofpyrenees you should already be able to start fires with lit brands and torches. Once the fire's burning you can then pull out another brand.