Monster Wolves.. Help!

[Evolution13]

Yes, I see that thread on how to deal with wolves, it hasn't helped me.

The wolves in this game must either be on the verge of starvation themselves or they're mothers desperate to find food for their cubs. They just don't let up.

As far as I can tell it's impossible to fend off a wolf bare handed. I've tried spamming right click and charging the attack, neither fazes them. I know I can reliably and consistently find a prybar at Quonset Gas Station, But beating them repeatedly with it has yet to save my life or do anything at all. IRL if you hit an animal that isn't desperate for it's own survival with a heavy metal object it's going to run off pretty quickly.

Am I doing something wrong?

[eg0nomic]

I am having the same problem. Even with the hatchet I'm getting killed in seconds with nothing seeming to register for damage on them. They seem invincible.

[Archaeonic]

Sad to say that I can be counted as another frustrated player under entirely similar circumstances. I've been armed and loaded with an 80% condition rifle and I couldn't get a shot off. I've had a prybar, knife and hatchet in my inventory.

Developers, something's gotta give here and I hope its not us giving up on an otherwise gorgeous game...

[RJIII]

Try v.170 And let us know what you think it's a little bit more transparent on what is going. I have almost no problem fending off wolves.

[Bill Tarling]

If you don't mid switching some key allocations around, you can set your left mouse button to be replaced by Spacebar in the key bindings (and just switch right click over to the left mouse button)... that will give you an easier way to do strength buildups

[Evolution13]

The new interface in v.170 at least helps me to understand why I'm dying so much, but still. I've died exactly once to cold and fatigue, the other 60 or so deaths have all been to wolves. I also find it frustrating that I have yet to find a knife in the game. I just don't last long enough.

@Bill Tarling: That's a good idea, but it's be better and easier to adjust if I could assign more than one key to the same function, most games allow this, having a main and alternate key, but I know that during Alpha that's not a priority.

[Evolution13]

I'm getting better at the game, I've managed to find knives and rifles. I can sometimes survive wolf attacks now but I still feel like I'm playing Wolf Avoider rather than The Long Dark.

I know it's Alpha and things will improve but I'm curious how many others share my frustration?

[Hylander]

I find it is easier to avoid wolves than let them attack me. I am on day 79 of my current run, and until around day 60 I was based out of the Quonset Hut (Garage). According to my logs, I've been attacked 13 times. Obviously, I've survived all 13 attacks.

In general, you can out-run them unless you're heading into a gale wind.

According to the logs, I killed 3 of the 13 directly during the fights, but in my experience the other 10 probably died as well, just after they ran away.

[aurora]

After playing quite some time now i got better in defeating wolves. Still i try to avoid them, if possible or run as fast as i can , if one is after me ... My conclusion so far is, that you should have a very good condition and some weapon (knife / hatchet) and punch it with many fast hits ... i never managed to defeat one with only a few very hard hits.

I've been frustrated by the wolves when playing the first few times. But now i have a different point of view. You have to learn to watch your surroundings carefully ... especially if you do not have any weapon. And if you managed to defeat a wolf, you should rest somewhere to refresh your condition ...

[Bill Tarling]

I've been frustrated by the wolves when playing the first few times. But now i have a different point of view. You have to learn to watch your surroundings carefully ... especially if you do not have any weapon. And if you managed to defeat a wolf, you should rest somewhere to refresh your condition ...

That's exactly what the long term players have tried explaining to newer players. It's not that we expect to win every wolf battle, but rather that we learned to work around or avoid the wolves whenever possible, and rest ASAP after a battle. By learning when and how to deal with wolves, it heightens the adrenaline rush, fear, and game intensity and excitement so much. Dying is half the fun -- and yes, most of the long time players likely have well over 100 deaths by now and keep coming back for more

[Evolution13]

I'm not sure exactly what changed in the wolf struggle interface in .181 but I've managed to survive three wolf attacks in a row in my latest game! (with time to heal up in between.) Whatever you guys did, thanks!

[Uncle Boom]

Yesssss, Nice!

I knew right away wolves are meant to be avoided. Saw one Let's Play this morning before scooping a copy and I could tell... Wolves are meant to be avoided. Honestly, It would be a terrifying experience- sunny high noon knee deep in snow, and a Black Lone Wolf wants to take you to Lunch. Even without the gail wind and a 1895 I would wet myself, I probably would have a low chance of survival too- especially if I was Smoked just climbing a ridge stacked in cloth.

No chance I'll ever sto playing cause of the Wolves. My very first spawn was near the Dam and I learned well... There can be wolves in the Dam.

Uncle Boom #1 - R.I.P.

[perfecto]

hi,

how does "strength build-up" actually works?

I can't figure it out. It seems i have no way to knife the wolf in any way, and the build up bar makes it even more confusing...

I wish instructions were available to the game!

[Bill Tarling]

hi,

how does "strength build-up" actually works?

I can't figure it out. It seems i have no way to knife the wolf in any way, and the build up bar makes it even more confusing...

I wish instructions were available to the game!

Left Mouse Button builds strength - Right Mouse Button Strikes wolf

If you have a pry bar, knife, or hatchet - the best weapon is automatically used

[RogueRose]

Count me on being frustrated with the wolves. I was doing quite well and got bored with Pilgrim. So I decided hey, I'm getting good at this, let me try Voyager. I was surviving days on end wit Pilgrim. I cannot survive more than 3 days on Voyager because of the damn wolves. I try avoiding them, they seem to always come in 2, and I can barely get a hit in before they kill me. It's getting to the point I give up and just let the wolves kill me.

[KeldorKatarn]

In my opinion this "experienced players have said this many times..." stuff can ever be an argument. The developers have to keep new players with the game. And the majority of players is NOT the kind that checks forums or wikis when the game is killing them off repeatedly. The majority of players will try a couple of time and after the 4th death by wolf without knowing what the hell they're doing wrong they'll simply stop playing the game and review it as broken.

In my honest oppinion the wolves are completely broken right now and by FAR the worst ´part of the game. They are not a challenge, they're just frustrating and unfair. Yes I realize after the 30th death you may figure out how to survive their attack most of the time but that's not how a game is supposed to work. A player needs to understand IMMEDIATELY how to defeat a wolf attack and no matter what his gear is, there always needs to be a decent chance of doing so. Otherwise the player feels cheated and betrayed by the game. And that's ALWAYs bad game design.

[KeldorKatarn]

Left Mouse Button builds strength - Right Mouse Button Strikes wolf

This is part of the problem. In the entire game LMB is used for all interactions. That in a life and death situation the important button is sunfdenly RMB makes the situation even worse for new players. Yes that is explained on screen but that doesn't matter one bit in a situation where you die within 5 seconds. The player doesn't even have the time to read this. At best he'll panic and mash the LMB which will do exactly nothing to help him stay alive.

[June]

I don´t see how the wolves are "completely broken". you just have to be cautious, in good condition or...yeah, armed with a knife or a rifle. I died a few times, but now i am on top of the food chain. (at least in yoyager mode). Andd i always encountered lone wolfs, just one time i saw a pack of 2 and ran like hell

Maybe you could give some suggestions how the wolves could be better or more realistic than just say they´re "broken"?

P.S.: if you die 100 times in an early access game and never google how to survive, you´re just doing it wrong, imho.

[KeldorKatarn]

I don´t see how the wolves are "completely broken". you just have to be cautious, in good condition or...yeah, armed with a knife or a rifle. I died a few times, but now i am on top of the food chain. (at least in yoyager mode). Andd i always encountered lone wolfs, just one time i saw a pack of 2 and ran like hell

Maybe you could give some suggestions how the wolves could be better or more realistic than just say they´re "broken"?

P.S.: if you die 100 times in an early access game and never google how to survive, you´re just doing it wrong, imho.

I have explained in another thread how I think they could be fixed.

Also your last quote... is that supposed to be a joke? This is an early access game which means I'm supposed to give feedback on stuff that is clearly not working for new players and not fun. I've tried it, I've read up on it, I still think it's broken.

And sorry but the attitude "a player should check google first", THAT'S doing game design wrong. The game must be enough in itself to be played successfully. And considering how much negative feedback there is on these forums I'd say the wolves are the biggest problem in the game right now. Can you somehow eventually figure out how to deal with them? Possibly. Is it fun to get to that point? Absolutely not. And I can pretty much guarantee at this point that a large number of players will toss the game aside in frustration if the game is released with the wolves working like this.

PS: I can personally say that at this point I'm not interested in learning how to beat these wolves anymore. It's frustrating, it's ruining the fun for me, and if the wolves remain this way I'll quit playing. It's as simple as that. I consider them completely broken, zero fun, breaking the entire game experience. And I consider that valid user feedback. And yes I have explained in another thread why exactly I feel this way and how I think it could be fixed.

[octavian]

The assumption that wolves are to be beat, especially by new players, is enforced by other games, not TLD. The game never implies a wolf attack should be survived regardless of gear, nor that hand to paw combat with a wolf is, or should, be a daily activity, nor that just because it exists it has to be killed.

Why is avoiding them a problem?

[June]

No, i was not joking. In the old days you checked a manual or asked your friends, today you browse the internet if you really like a game (which is in a state of development) and wanna play it or know how to aquire a certain thing. Don´t tell me you never did this.

Plus, i am very glad that TLD doesn´t hold your hand and protect you. It´s meant to be hard, that´s one reason I like it.

And of course your thoughts are valid user feedback, i did not want to insult you or other players.

[Scyzara]

It's always a delicate balance how much hand-holding benefits a game. Different players often have different desires regarding the amount of assistance they want to receive. Just like they usually have a different understanding about what is "difficult" and what is "easy".

I personally don't have any problem to deal with wolves any more (would be quite sad after 300h of playing if I still had trouble...) and as far as I remember I didn't have severe problems to figure out how to deal with them when I was new to the game six months ago. But KeldorKatarn's point stands nevertheless.

If a considerable percentage of players has problems to figure out the fighting (and presumably also the fight-avoiding) mechanics - which is obviously the case given the numerous steam and forum posts about wolves as well as the low percentage of players that survived for more than ten days - it's completely viable to give the Devs some feedback that the current fighting mechanics are not self-explanatory (and obviously difficult to understand for many players).

I've just written a post in a different thread regarding this issue, thus I'll just (more or less) quote myself here.

Adding the option to enable a fighting mechanism tutorial screen for new players might be worth a thought.

(As there are probably also players who want to figure out the fighting mechanics themselves, you should be asked whether you want enable the tutorial screens if you start a sandbox game ofc. Those who want to play without any form of hand-holding should be given this possibility, but those who want some help should imho receive it.)

I agree that the current hand-fighting system is probably not easy to understand for new players. The same is true for options to avoid hand-fighting at all (dropping decoys and using flares/torches). At the moment, new players simply aren't told that dropping decoys is even possible unless they open the keybinding menu and happen to see it by chance. Which is quite a pitty because dropping decoys is both a nice game mechanism AND a great possibility to avoid hand-fights 80% of the time.

I thus think it might be a nice idea to have the option to have some kind of tutorial screen popping up the first time you start TLD as soon as a wolf catches your scent and approaches you. The screen might tell you about the default key bindings to drop a decoy and equip a flare. If you get attacked nevertheless, a second tutorial might pop up and explain the hand-fighting mechanics.

Both tutorials should ofc. freeze time and only occur once (the first time you start a TLD game and get noticed by a wolf). Adding such tutorials would of course be some kind of hand-holding and probably break immersion a bit, but that's imho BY FAR the lesser of two evils when compared to losing players because they don't understand the fighting mechanics and quit due to frustration.

Plus, those who don't want any help can simply choose to disable the tutorials before they start a game.

[octavian]

I'm not sure where to post this so it has a higher chance to be seen, and if it has already been proposed, I apologize for the repeat. Voyageur and stalker should be locked for new players like CH and PV. Pilgrim could be unlocked with the first map that gets unlocked and stalker with the second. Or other ways more fitting to unlock them could be considered. Wolves should NOT be a problem when the game purposefully has a mechanic in place that makes wildlife non-hostile. Pilgrim is the best way to learn how to safely avoid wolves as they run when on higher difficulties would aggro.

[Bill Tarling]

Voyageur and stalker should be locked for new players like CH and PV. Pilgrim is the best way to learn how to safely avoid wolves as they run when on higher difficulties would aggro.

I disagree... One of the main reasons the devs took on the additional task of adding various levels [each has it's own settings, and increases their workload testing and changing] was because different players wanted different experiences.

There are a lot of brand new players who immediately start by jumping in playing Stalker mode [they understand it's the hardest of the 3 available modes, and that's what they were looking for] and many are still playing regularly. While it may not be for everyone [hence the option for more beginner or easier level of Pilgrim].

Some have jumped into Stalker and found it a bit too tough, so they dropped back down to Voyageur and seem quite content playing that mode regularly now.

If they hadn't been allowed to start at their desired higher level of difficulty, chances are they would have simply found the game too easy for their personal play style, and would have moved on elsewhere.

The big problem is most modern players have grown up with games where the only purpose is to complete ["beat"] the game as quickly as possible, and the games are designed to make that possible -- plus the sooner you complete the game, the sooner you'll buy their next one.

TLD is more old school, no hand holding, no giant green arrows pointing "This Way", no radar maps showing you where all the loot and enemies are (even if they're hidden from sight), and plenty of save spots (including manual saves) so players can continue right where they died so danger isn't really a critical challenge...

The Studio originally only had one mode [equivalent of current Voyageur mode], but understood some people found it hard to learn the no handholding techniques to handle the wolves and challenges -- so they added the Pilgrim mode. They also understood many players also found the single mode too easy, and thrived on getting a harder version -- so Stalker settings were added to try balancing that interest.

Naturally they can't simply keep adding more and more modes or else they would be spending way too much time on tweaking every single mode (and players would still want their own separate mode added) so the current 3 levels are the balance which still allows them to progress on the main development and towards the story line.

Each map has a different feel, and aren't necessarily based on a single difficulty level

Pilgrim could be unlocked with the first map that gets unlocked and stalker with the second.

Each map has a different feel, and aren't necessarily based on a single difficulty level... each map requires various skills and individual player techniques to be used in different ways. A step by step difficulty increase would be counterproductive - new players may never be ready for the higher level but enjoy where they are - players looking for a more challenging experience might not even continue if they feel the challenges are missing from the start [almost like those "let me teach you how to play" intro game levels].

With over 2000 variables which interact and affect each other [it's rather intricate and extensive under the hood, and not simply a case of everything automatically balances with sliders... changing one setting will often unbalance multiple other settings as well].

Personally I think the devs have been retuning and finding an equitable balance as they've gone along... don't forget it will need constant retweaking because there's still a lot more content ahead. Every release with new areas containing new loot or items means also having to find a new balance for all the previous material - otherwise lack of supplies is no longer part of the game because you just add new areas to give more].

Players tend to think of the most current version as the almost final setting that will be used [mainly because the game plays so well and feels relatively complete and functional already]... but it's best to let the devs work towards their final vision first, and allow them to tune the various modes for once all the content is available first. They tune each major update, but making the players go through the game in baby steps would go against everything they've tried to do by bringing back old school "learn and earn" your skills and advancements.

So far I think they've been doing an amazing job of it... lot of areas I don't personally agree with, but given the incredible development they've delivered already, I'm confident they'll come up with a pretty good range to satisfy a wide range of players.

[octavian]

Thank you for the answer Bill Tarling, I appreciate it.

However, there are a few contradictions in what you said. Or at least, it seems so to me. And by this I don't mean you personally contradict yourself but that the game does; since you know much about its history and development maybe you can help me answer some questions which your answer has raised and to which, frankly, I have no answer.

You say that TLD is tough, old school, no hand holding. I get this. But then you mention plenty of save spots, so players can continue right away if they die. Ok, so no permadeath across the board. I get this too. Then, some players found it too hard, Pilgrim was added. Is Pilgrim hand holding? Which is it, is the game hard or isn't it hard?

Also, you mention most players having bad gaming habits. Beating the game as soon as possible. But you also mention a lot of brand new players who immediately start with Stalker and play it regularly. Is this overcoming the game as fast as possible too? Also, isn't continuing right away if you die also overcoming the game faster? I know you can't "beat" it, I'm simply equating "beating" it with overcoming the challenge.

Also, concerning the game being easy or hard, is it that rather we're being presented with different experiences? Pilgrim a more thoughtful, slow, introspective experience than Stalker for example. Because if this is the case, it means that players who jump into Stalker don't miss on the game being easy, they miss on the game at its most thoughtful, slow and introspective.

You say that it's best to let the devs work towards their final vision first, and allow them to tune what needs tuning with all content in place. Is somebody working against this? Does this mean we should stop giving feedback until then? Because giving feedback is hard. Essentially telling the developer to his face, look, this that and the third sould be such and such because A, B and C is not easy. For me at least. And the response I've been getting, and pretty much everyone gets, is please give us your feedback.

Also, regarding maps, why are CH and PV locked for new players? Just a curiosity. Because, as I understand it, it can't be that they're considered harder. Is it to encourage exploration? Or preventing the new player to overcome the game and see what it has to offer too fast?

As a person which is following the forums and which, frankly, doesn't undertand most things, I see people saying it's either too easy or too hard. Of course, the silent majority could, and probably does, play the game happily.

But to me, this doesn't even matter. What does matter to me is, simply, why? Why players for which the game is either too easy, either too hard, exist, still, with Pilgrim, with Voyageur, with Stalker, with saves, with constant rebalancing, with player feedback.

Of course, you could, not openly of course, say, look, the number of these players equate to a 5 sigma deviance from the mean on the gaussian distribution of how easy or hard players find the game. In other words, too few to matter given the large majority finds a way to be contentent between Pilgrim, Voyageur and Stalker. So it's not a problem, it's a function of pure statistical distribution.

But why, why, I cannot understand it. Why can't it simply be, the game. This is it, this is the experience. We've worked very hard at it, and here it is.