Admin

The Long Dark Hotfixed to V1.49 [47860]

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, UpUpAway95 said:

After mostly clearing Mountain Town yet again and finding 4 rifles and 1 revolver (which was yet again only found under Gray Mother's bed), I'm prepared to say that something must be interfering with the intended 'tuning" aspect because the revolver is consistently no where near as common as the rifle.  In addition, I am also only finding the very occasional round of revolver ammo in this particular run (5 rounds in total) as opposed to 19 rounds of rifle ammo).  This is inconsistent with past starts, so I'm not prepared to say yet that something is awry with the RNG regarding ammo... I will test it all again in another new start.  For clarity, all my starts to test the new mechanics have been in Pilgrim mode.

We'll take a look. A better test would be across multiple regions in the game world. The "population" of tools like Rifles, Revolvers, etc. is across the game world and not limited to each region. 

  • Upvote 1
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

We'll take a look. A better test would be across multiple regions in the game world. The "population" of tools like Rifles, Revolvers, etc. is across the game world and not limited to each region. 

I agree.  I'm doing a CH start right now; but it's not really practical for me to try to test all the regions or at higher difficulties (I'm simply not that good at surviving long enough to thoroughly search).  I'm thinking though that you, as a dev, probably have a quicker way around this and whatever you ultimately find will be more accurate than anything I can do on this end.  You also have the advantage on knowing how you might be intentionally manipulating spawns in certain zones to balance things rather than relying on straight RNG.

Thank you though for noticing my post and responding.  As I've said before... You're the best.

Edited by UpUpAway95

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

Please, people. This is a GAME. Stop quoting your real life hiking/outdoor/camping/survival excursions as a reason for why something should be tuned differently.

I've spent a lot of time outdoors in my life, including hiking on some pretty treacherous terrain. I've never had a sprain in my life. I've also lived in very cold parts of the world and done a lot of winter camping. Never had frostbite. Have had a lot of water when thirsty and never had dysentery. Etc. I get it. Move on.

Fair enough, please don't get upset, we're just talking.  I love the game, perhaps too much, that's why when something changes that doesn't feel quite right I might get a little crusty about it. Change is hard, right?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

We'll take a look. A better test would be across multiple regions in the game world. The "population" of tools like Rifles, Revolvers, etc. is across the game world and not limited to each region. 

I've got over half the game world looted on my current Custom game.  Mountain Town, Broken Railroad, Forlorn Muskeg, Hushed River Valley, Mystery Lake, Raven Falls Ravine, Winding River, and about 90% of Pleasant Valley.  I've got the loot spawns cranked to an 11.  I've lost count of the rifles, but's around 15.  I have found exactly 3 revolvers so far.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

I've seen a lot of weirdness on the forums this past week.  It's one thing for us to give honest feedback, and it's another to sort of try to browbeat the team that has been working for years to bring us a better experience with each iteration.  As a community we need to keep things in perspective.  Change is going to happen, and with anything that is changed or introduced there will be a period of adjustment... both for players and for those changes to get fine tuned by the team until things are working as they intended.

To be clear, I'm not speaking to/about anyone in particular, I am trying to address the whole community.  We all have to take things in stride, there maybe bumps and snags along the way as the team continues to try and expand and improve this game for us.  It's fine for us to offer suggestions and give feedback, but we need to recognize the line where we go from trying to be helpful to being just pushy/demanding.  Also, to remember that as things grow and change things may not go we expect them too... getting aggressive and hostile won't help whatever thing you're upset about.

Let's all remain calm.  Let's give the team room to work.  Let's not dwell on things we already know they are working to fix/tune.  Let's try to avoid being pushy with our opinions.  Let's try to temper that odd sense of outrage I have seen littered throughout the forums over the last week or so with a little more perspective.  I know that since I signed on for early access on the late end of 2014 this game has grown by leaps and bounds, and I think that if we look at it objectively the game overall has vastly improved in that time.

To those who've tried to be voices of reason, keep it up.  It's clear that it's needed most during patch time :D 

Edited by ManicManiac
  • Upvote 1
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/12/2019 at 9:28 AM, diggity said:

Fair enough, please don't get upset, we're just talking.  I love the game, perhaps too much, that's why when something changes that doesn't feel quite right I might get a little crusty about it. Change is hard, right?

Not at all upset. :) Just trying to illustrate how silly it can be to apply real-world experience to a game. Not that games shouldn't be taken seriously or held to a high standard, which we hope people do for The Long Dark, but just the argument of "things don't happen this way in real life therefore this system is bad" is really unhelpful, even though it feels like a useful argument. 

  • Upvote 2
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

Not at all upset. :) Just trying to illustrate how silly it can be to apply real-world experience to a game. Not that games shouldn't be taken seriously or held to a high standard, which we hope people do for The Long Dark, but just the argument of "things don't happen this way in real life therefore this system is bad" is really unhelpful, even though it feels like a useful argument. 

   

@Raphael van Lierop

  You sound frustrated, and you know as well as I do you'll never be able to please every player, even for a niche game such as this. Forgive me if I'm presumptuous, but in my minds eye I can see the 1000+ realism criticisms pulsing in your head like a migraine when you wrote that post. At the end of the day you have to make a design decision and sometimes that doesn't involve realism.

      Before I say anything that even suggests criticism of the game, let alone you and your team ( its not my intent anyhow here), I'll say yet one more time that I've simply never seen any game developer ( excepting *maybe* some early MMO titles like UO) respond so quickly and honestly to their players. Your forums are well moderated, and even if the mods choose to warn someone about their disruptive behavior, your team is professional and polite in my experience. 

     This said, I think there is a lot of value in some degree of realism, and I don't think you can say that you haven't made many concessions to realism ( the sprain mechanic in general. I like it, though I honestly think there are plenty of folks that would hate having such a mechanic at all, and I think the game would still be quite playable and fair without it ). After all, we aren't trying to fill our grickles and blerliwert meters while keeping our player pixel out of the red zone, which causes a loss of Kelvinators that can only be restored by moving into the turquoise zone or using the item caffieneglitterbomb. The very fact that you're using things we've seen and experienced in real life ( wolves, cold, jackets, medicine, etc. ) is a concession to realism and creates an expectation of *some* degree of lifelikeness.

    I love survival games. Take the games "Don't Starve" and "Subnautica" for instance. Both of these are excellent games IMHO which together I have put hundreds of hours into between them. One is far more supernatural and whimsical than realistic, and the other uses hypothetical technology in addition to somewhat realistic environments. They're both excellent games, just as TLD does what it does extremely well in its own way.

TL:DR I love your game, and we hope we're not driving you insane but some of us really enjoy the realistic parts of TLD.

Edited by Grignard_TN
Created directed post

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

Not at all upset. :) Just trying to illustrate how silly it can be to apply real-world experience to a game. Not that games shouldn't be taken seriously or held to a high standard, which we hope people do for The Long Dark, but just the argument of "things don't happen this way in real life therefore this system is bad" is really unhelpful, even though it feels like a useful argument. 

"Deep survival simulation gameplay..." -- www.thelongdark.com

So, ya, unrealistic gameplay will get commented on, and since we don't really know what goes into making a game all we can do is point at the unrealistic simulation.

I have a solution -- MOD MODE

  1. Give potential modders all the information they need to twist the game into whatever they want without breaking it or unnecessarily stepping on each others toes.
  2. Set up a rating/ranking/review system for mods to engage the wider community.
  3. Solicit gameplay improvements from the community in the form of mods. <legal stuff> to ensure Hinterland gets to use submissions how they see fit and creators get a guarantee of recognition.
  4. Get back to work on your game...

...without worrying about what the hardcore or more adventurous players are doing.

Mod Mode seems like a win-win-win+ situation to me: players see the possibility to get what they want; Hinterland sees less pressure to accommodate novel features and mechanics; the devs get to see all kinds of wild ideas put into practice, along with both how the community and game responds.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, JohnDoe60 said:

"Deep survival simulation gameplay..." -- www.thelongdark.com

So, ya, unrealistic gameplay will get commented on, and since we don't really know what goes into making a game all we can do is point at the unrealistic simulation.

I have a solution -- MOD MODE

  1. Give potential modders all the information they need to twist the game into whatever they want without breaking it or unnecessarily stepping on each others toes.
  2. Set up a rating/ranking/review system for mods to engage the wider community.
  3. Solicit gameplay improvements from the community in the form of mods. <legal stuff> to ensure Hinterland gets to use submissions how they see fit and creators get a guarantee of recognition.
  4. Get back to work on your game...

...without worrying about what the hardcore or more adventurous players are doing.

Mod Mode seems like a win-win-win+ situation to me: players see the possibility to get what they want; Hinterland sees less pressure to accommodate novel features and mechanics; the devs get to see all kinds of wild ideas put into practice, along with both how the community and game responds.

 

A horse designed by comittee would be a camel.

Let Raph and the team control the development and design of their game on their own.

  • Upvote 2
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, JohnDoe60 said:

"Deep survival simulation gameplay..." -- www.thelongdark.com

So, ya, unrealistic gameplay will get commented on, and since we don't really know what goes into making a game all we can do is point at the unrealistic simulation.

 

Show me where it says "realistic". Simulation speaks to gameplay approach, not to whether something is realistic or not. "The Sims" is a simulation. It is detailed, complex, layered, and rich in systems. It is not realistic.

  • Upvote 1
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Grignard_TN said:

   

@Raphael van Lierop

  You sound frustrated, and you know as well as I do you'll never be able to please every player, even for a niche game such as this. Forgive me if I'm presumptuous, but in my minds eye I can see the 1000+ realism criticisms pulsing in your head like a migraine when you wrote that post. At the end of the day you have to make a design decision and sometimes that doesn't involve realism.

      Before I say anything that even suggests criticism of the game, let alone you and your team ( its not my intent anyhow here), I'll say yet one more time that I've simply never seen any game developer ( excepting *maybe* some early MMO titles like UO) respond so quickly and honestly to their players. Your forums are well moderated, and even if the mods choose to warn someone about their disruptive behavior, your team is professional and polite in my experience. 

     This said, I think there is a lot of value in some degree of realism, and I don't think you can say that you haven't made many concessions to realism ( the sprain mechanic in general. I like it, though I honestly think there are plenty of folks that would hate having such a mechanic at all, and I think the game would still be quite playable and fair without it ). After all, we aren't trying to fill our grickles and blerliwert meters while keeping our player pixel out of the red zone, which causes a loss of Kelvinators that can only be restored by moving into the turquoise zone or using the item caffieneglitterbomb. The very fact that you're using things we've seen and experienced in real life ( wolves, cold, jackets, medicine, etc. ) is a concession to realism and creates an expectation of *some* degree of lifelikeness.

    I love survival games. Take the games "Don't Starve" and "Subnautica" for instance. Both of these are excellent games IMHO which together I have put hundreds of hours into between them. One is far more supernatural and whimsical than realistic, and the other uses hypothetical technology in addition to somewhat realistic environments. They're both excellent games, just as TLD does what it does extremely well in its own way.

TL:DR I love your game, and we hope we're not driving you insane but some of us really enjoy the realistic parts of TLD.

If I sound frustrated, it's only because "realism" gets used as a cudgel to bludgeon any argument someone doesn't like the response to, or a mechanic or tuning decision that someone doesn't like. (After working on WW2, 40k, and now survival games, I've become familiar with how each of these audiences "wins arguments" using realism as the metric, and I've never seen it do any good.)

My goal by bringing it up is to excise "realistic" and "fun" from the discussion around The Long Dark, so that we can focus on useful feedback. Making the game realistic is NOT our intent. Making the game fun is NOT our focus. Making it interesting, compelling, full of thoughtful choices, memorable moments, close calls, and wonderful moments of serendipity -- and maybe sometimes poetry -- THIS is why we're here.

  • Upvote 5
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The TL;DR on that is going to be a malapropism by way of Mark Twain: "Never let the facts realism get in the way of a good story game."

And yeah, while fun figures into what makes a good game, it's far from the only thing that does.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/13/2019 at 5:16 PM, Raphael van Lierop said:

Show me where it says "realistic". Simulation speaks to gameplay approach, not to whether something is realistic or not. "The Sims" is a simulation. It is detailed, complex, layered, and rich in systems. It is not realistic.

Ya, you try checking out dictionaries and the like...

" A simulation video game describes a diverse super-category of video games, generally designed to closely simulate real world activities.[1] " -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulation_video_game

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, JohnDoe60 said:

Ya, you try checking out dictionaries and the like...

" A simulation video game describes a diverse super-category of video games, generally designed to closely simulate real world activities.[1] " -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulation_video_game

You can quote the dictionary to me all you like. What I'm telling you is -- realism is not our goal. I'm not sure why you persist in this argument. It's not like I don't have some insight into the motivations behind the project. If you're looking for realism, you will not find it here, and continuously beating that drum is a waste of everyone's time.

  • Upvote 1
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It still hurts my heart to see the bunny life get ended, how's that for realism? Some get too much, some want too much. We all might get less, but we all want more. Great game, and great work Hinterland, everyone there putting in the hours to make a 'entertaining' game!

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With yesterday's release of Hotfix v1.5 we're closing this thread. For details on that release please see this: 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.