All mods are disabled entirely on new update

[Guest kristaok]

@Hawk @hozz1235 Same! I only watch Judge Judy and Forensic Files.  Well and I do like Westerns! 

[Raphael van Lierop]

Might be relevant to this discussion about language -- we do *officially* support Language Mods on Steam, so if you want to go and modify the text strings to remove the cursing, you are welcome to do so. It won't remove the audio, unfortunately, but it can help address the subtitle issue.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/305620/workshop/

[Serenity]

35 minutes ago, kristaok said:

Once you sign that EULA it DOES become a Contract.

But keep in mind that they aren't universally enforceable. They are based on the Anglo-Saxon legal system. In some other places it's only a legal contract when you sign it when buying. Not afterwards during installation. And even in the US certain individual clauses might not be enforceable.

Legally the whole thing is somewhat controversial and in many countries there haven't been definitive court decisions about it

Edited May 9, 2019 by Serenity

[Guest kristaok]

2 minutes ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

Might be relevant to this discussion about language -- we do *officially* support Language Mods on Steam, so if you want to go and modify the text strings to remove the cursing, you are welcome to do so. It won't remove the audio, unfortunately, but it can help address the subtitle issue.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/305620/workshop/

Thanks!  

[Guest kristaok]

2 minutes ago, Serenity said:

But keep in mind that they aren't universally enforceable. They are based on the Anglo-Saxon legal system. In some other places it's only a legal contract when you sign it when buying. Not afterwards during installation. And even in the US certain individual clauses might not be enforceable.

Either way, we should all consider avoiding, and well not create or promote Unsupported Mods out of respect for Hinterland and their wishes. I myself have decided to not even look at these Mods out of respect, because I trust that Hinterland will bring in Mod Support and when they do it will be done right and safely. 

Edited May 9, 2019 by kristaok

[ManicManiac]

I like how this thread shifted to a positive and constructive conversation. 

[hozz1235]

1 hour ago, kristaok said:

Either way, we should all consider avoiding, and well not create or promote Unsupported Mods out of respect for Hinterland and their wishes. I myself have decided to not even look at these Mods out of respect, because I trust that Hinterland will bring in Mod Support and when they do it will be done right and safely. 

I will certainly respect HLs wishes with regards to mods, but I will continue to be in support of the mod community because I have seen the benefit that they can provide.  Some of my favorites are:

• Remember break-down weapon - SO useful, but especially when tearing up a house full of curtains!
• The ability to drain lantern oil from lanterns
• Indoor lighting improvements
• Inventory Item stacking = priceless!
• There are many others but I'm at work now and those are the ones that come to mind

[Guest kristaok]

13 minutes ago, hozz1235 said:

I will certainly respect HLs wishes with regards to mods, but I will continue to be in support of the mod community because I have seen the benefit that they can provide.  Some of my favorites are:

• Remember break-down weapon - SO useful, but especially when tearing up a house full of curtains!
• The ability to drain lantern oil from lanterns
• Indoor lighting improvements
• Inventory Item stacking = priceless!
• There are many others but I'm at work now and those are the ones that come to mind

Yea I never meant I do not support Modding or the Mod Community, but I don't support Unofficial Mods, I mean I used to wrongly... but after Raph pouring his heart and soul out yesterday, and seeing the attitude from the Unofficial Modding Community I have changed my stance. 

I would much rather put my support where it rightfully belongs, and that will be on Raph, the Hinterland Team, and their ability to release their own Mod Support when the time is right.  

[hozz1235]

You can support both without "taking sides".

[Guest kristaok]

9 minutes ago, hozz1235 said:

You can support both without "taking sides".

I know that, but I feel like for me to love this Game like I do I must side with Hinterland.  

Of course everyone has a right to side with whoever side they want, but I have to go with HL on this one.  No offense to anyone.  

[stratvox]

5 hours ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

Fair enough.  This is the first game I bought with my own money; I was not very old.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-15_Strike_Eagle_(video_game)

Ha! I remember that one! I was I think 17 or 18 when that came out. I didn't buy it though... no computer to play it on.

[Troxism]

My 2 cents:

For me, mods have basically been the only way I can play the game (somewhat of an exaggeration, but honestly not that much of one), ever since the new breath effect was added shortly before 'release'. The 'fix' for it a few updates ago hasn't changed anything in that regard (I honestly couldn't tell any difference post update). It's so obnoxiously bright/contrasts so much with everything else indoors/in darkness I basically can't play with it on anymore (it actually gives me a headache after a while). Mods allow me to get rid of it (ideally I'd just dampen it's brightness by about 90% when it's dark so that it's not any brighter then the surroundings, but outright removal is close enough).

My point isn't really about that specific gripe (while it is a deal-breaker for me personally, it obviously isn't for everyone), but to show that in some cases mods are basically the only way some people are able to enjoy the game, and not always because of game play changes but simply by adding what amount to extra configuration options. It's just not realistic for the devs to add configuration options for every possible player demand, and mods allow that demand to be filled.

It worries me that soon enough (once there is a new update that breaks mods again) there will be no way for me to address this problem, and the game will be come essentially unplayable for me (as I don't feel like getting headaches constantly) until mod support is added (and at this rate it looks like that will be years in the future).

[Guest kristaok]

The Breathing Effect has never bothered me, I could never quite understand why others were so bothered by it really. I think it's very realistic, and I am glad it's implemented, I really don't want Hinterland to remove it. 

[WellsleyFarms]

5 hours ago, kristaok said:

I just saw this... ehh.... yikes! no - no I don't think Raph and his Team is wrong... I think he would know, I mean after - all he did make the Game! Plus he said in his Post he spent YEARS on this Game, it's like his baby... he wants it done right! so he WILL release his own Mod Support when it's time - in his timing.

Once you sign that EULA it DOES become a Contract... I admit I don't read them because a LOT of the language is BIG words that I just don't get, and well... I am LAZY there I said it.  But when you sign those you are bound to what they say, you or others may not like that but you signed it, even if you didn't read it. 

Hey there.

You don't seem to understand what I said about contracts so I'll clarify.

Anyone can write anything they want in any EULA agreement. Both parties can sign this and agree. But if there is something illegal in the EULA then that contract is VOID. 

 

HERE'S an example. 

Person A makes End User Licence Agreement that says somewhere in it that they can persecute you and make you their slave. 

Person B agrees to this.

Now unfortunately for Person A slavery is illegal! So the entire EULA is invalid and void.

That's how contracts work. They must be legal. They are not binding 100% because you signed it. That's all. Pretty extreme example but I want to make it very clear what in saying 

[Guest kristaok]

@WellsleyFarms - But there's nothing in the EULA that is "illegal"... so therefore I do not see how the "Contract" could be void? Also I am sure they have their own Team that works on those Contracts, so I doubt there would be any loopholes. 

[WellsleyFarms]

Just now, kristaok said:

@WellsleyFarms - But there's nothing in the EULA that is "illegal"... so therefore I do not see how the "Contract" could be void? Also I am sure they have their own Team that works on those Contracts, so I doubt there would be any loopholes. 

Oh that's an easy answer.

If there is anything in the EULA that says I can't modify my game, well that's illegal and the EULA is void. 

 

I've purchased the software and I own my copy of the game. I can modify game files however I see fit, as long as I don't try to make profit off someone else's work

Of course when I mess it up I won't go crying to the developer about it, because I understand the risks of tinkering. 

Hope I've explained that a bit better. If you're interested there are some great guys on YouTube that go into "videogame law" and all this stuff to help people like you and me understand our rights better. 

[Guest kristaok]

1 minute ago, WellsleyFarms said:

Oh that's an easy answer.

If there is anything in the EULA that says I can't modify my game, well that's illegal and the EULA is void. 

 

I've purchased the software and I own my copy of the game. I can modify game files however I see fit, as long as I don't try to make profit off someone else's work

Of course when I mess it up I won't go crying to the developer about it, because I understand the risks of tinkering. 

Hope I've explained that a bit better. If you're interested there are some great guys on YouTube that go into "videogame law" and all this stuff to help people like you and me understand our rights better. 

Yea we bought it sure, but I don't believe that would mean that we can get by scot-free if we were ever to be hunted down and sued for exploiting the Game. 

I have researched it and I admit I am no expert, but there are Companies that have sued the crap out of people for releasing Mods when they asked them not to. 

Either way there's no point in going against HL on this, after-all we wouldn't have the luxury of owning the Game if it weren't for them. So for that I have to respect their decision surrounding Unsupported Mods and how they advise against them. I personally will just wait for their Mod Support when the time is right, I feel it's disrespectful to go against their wishes in this. 

[Raphael van Lierop]

Not sure if we really want to get into this discussion or maybe it deserves its own thread; I'm not a lawyer so my understanding of software "ownership" is based on what I've been told and what I've read from reputable sources. It's likely that the laws/rules change based on platform or territory, so it may be difficult to make absolute statements about ownership rights, etc.

Here are some relevant articles:

https://www.windowscentral.com/should-we-really-be-invest-digital-xbox-one-libraries

https://www.techradar.com/news/the-double-edge-of-digital-games-and-changing-ownership

(An older article): https://www.wired.com/2010/09/first-sale-doctrine/

(This is EU focused where the rules are different, but may not be current either: https://www.publicknowledge.org/news-blog/blogs/eu-court-when-you-buy-software-you-own-it)

Etc.

I'm not trying to be antagonistic -- I don't think ownership rights over software, particularly games sold on Steam, Xbox, or PlayStation, are that clear. Or, if they are clear, they seem to make it clear that you don't own the software you buy there, you just own a license to use it.

I also don't think Modding is necessarily protected (or not) under those ownership rights. We don't have a EULA that specifically discusses acceptable uses of the software. When we do roll out Mod support officially, we will most likely have some rules you will have to opt-in to if you want to produce mods and share them with the community (as mentioned above, mostly to protect our IP). There are blanket user agreements you sign on to when you purchase the platforms and/or use stores (including Steam, Xbox Store, PlayStation Store, etc.). I suggest that if this issue matters to you, you should read the fine print.

Again, not trying to cause any fights. If this is a topic people want to get into further, I suggest a new thread. 

I think there are ways to discuss modding without invoking legal arguments, IMO.

[StrangerFromTheInternet]

14 hours ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

I also don't think Modding is necessarily protected (or not) under those ownership rights.

I'm not a lawyer, so take everything I'm saying here with a grain of salt, but...

While the mods themselves may (or may not) be derivative works, they are still protected by the same copyright laws that also protect The Long Dark.

Whether or not the act of modding is legal is a more difficult subject, and it varies wildly by jurisdiction. For example, I think that it would be protected under fair use in the USA: Mods are transformative in nature; all of our mods are non-commercial; The Long Dark is a published work; mods do not userp the market for The Long Dark, but rather stimulate it; we copy the least possible amount by only referencing the game's classes and methods without copying (that's the entire point of the mod loader), and only reference what we actually change to create our mods; and so on.

However, Hinterland is not based in the US, but rather in Canada. Then again, if a game studio in Canada offers a game on a storefront in country X, and a user in country X purchases it there, then I don't think Canadian copyright law applies, but rather the copyright law of country X, which complicates this even further.

And that doesn't even get into the complicated mess that are implied licenses.

But I mean, what it boils down to is - if neither party is interested in pursuing legal action against the other party, does it even matter?

Like, for example, I think that Hinterland is technically in violation of the software licenses of some of their 3rd party libraries like Json.NET or TinyJSON, which are licensed under the MIT license, according to which

Quote

The above copyright notice and this permission notice shall be included in all copies or substantial portions of the Software.

as I wasn't able to find any third party licenses included in The Long Dark.

But again, nobody is interested in pursuing legal action over not including a license file. After all, the MIT license is often specifically chosen because the software is meant for other people to use in any way they see fit. So in the end, does it even matter?

[Guest kristaok]

Here's the thing, look at Games on Steam... yes we bought them... but we technically don't own them, what I mean is if Steam (Heaven forbid) ever goes down there goes our Games and there would be nothing we could do about it because Steam is NOT DRM Free. Because the truth is (whether we like it or agree with it or not) digital goods can be taken away from us, because we do not own these goods instead they are leased to us. Now hear me out, I admit I think that if you buy something it should be yours, but in this case it may not be, or at least this is what I have heard / been told.

As for Modding and all of this legaleese talk, whether it's "legal or not or whether we are bound or not by the EULA" is not necessarily the issue, the issue is - we were kindly asked to wait for OFFICIAL Mod Support so I think we should do the right thing and WAIT. 

Again Raph is right, MOST if not ALL Digital Goods ARE leased, not sold. I know someone who worked with Microsoft and they said just what Raph said, everything was leased, the people whether they paid for the stuff or not, Microsoft's Products were never completely their's they were only leased to them.

Again me saying this does NOT mean I agree with how these Companies only "lease" their goods, I again disagree... I think if we buy something it should be ours, but what I think is irrelevant according to the binding Contracts signed and the Law. So again whether we like this fact or do not like this fact does not matter, because the moment we bought the Games or whatever and signed those Contracts we were bound between the walls of those Contracts and we signed that agreement that we are knowingly only leasing these Products (NOT buying them). 

PS. Raph said if we want to continue this talk we should make anotherthread.

[Raphael van Lierop]

46 minutes ago, kristaok said:

Here's the thing, look at Games on Steam... yes we bought them... but we technically don't own them, what I mean is if Steam (Heaven forbid) ever goes down there goes our Games and there would be nothing we could do about it because Steam is NOT DRM Free. Because the truth is (whether we like it or agree with it or not) digital goods can be taken away from us, because we do not own these goods instead they are leased to us. Now hear me out, I admit I think that if you buy something it should be yours, but in this case it may not be, or at least this is what I have heard / been told.

As for Modding and all of this legaleese talk, whether it's "legal or not or whether we are bound or not by the EULA" is not necessarily the issue, the issue is - we were kindly asked to wait for OFFICIAL Mod Support so I think we should do the right thing and WAIT. 

Again Raph is right, MOST if not ALL Digital Goods ARE leased, not sold. I know someone who worked with Microsoft and they said just what Raph said, everything was leased, the people whether they paid for the stuff or not, Microsoft's Products were never completely their's they were only leased to them.

Again me saying this does NOT mean I agree with how these Companies only "lease" their goods, I again disagree... I think if we buy something it should be ours, but what I think is irrelevant according to the binding Contracts signed and the Law. So again whether we like this fact or do not like this fact does not matter, because the moment we bought the Games or whatever and signed those Contracts we were bound between the walls of those Contracts and we signed that agreement that we are knowingly only leasing these Products (NOT buying them). 

PS. Raph said if we want to continue this talk we should make anotherthread.

Not to derail the discussion further, but just to quickly jump on the "Steam is not DRM free" comment (not to pick on you @kristaok but it's a great comment and brings up a good topic, IMO). I think this is a popular misconception about Steam. Steam has a DRM solution but it is opt-in by developers. In our case, we've never used it. We don't use Steam as a DRM tool, so for us there's no difference between, for example, Steam or GoG, in terms of the DRM-free aspect. For us, both are distribution platforms only. You can play The Long Dark without Steam running.

(Whether or not that has contributed to piracy over the years is up for debate -- I assume that dedicated hackers would have found a way to crack the Steam-DRM if we'd used it anyway.)

I'm not a Steam apologist or anything (though the platform has been critical to our success and I love a lot about it from a developer's standpoint) but I just thought I'd highlight that, because I think a lot of people make unfair assumptions about Steam (or DRM for that matter), and just assume it's somehow the DRM solution vs. GoG as the non-DRM solution. This isn't truly the case, at least not for us. And from the standpoint of "ownership" (which itself is a vague concept in our digital world), it would seem you "own" The Long Dark more on Steam than you do on, for example, Xbox or PlayStation, where you can't separate the game from the platform/store.

In any case, DRM or piracy has nothing to do with modding so carry on with the discussion and pretend I'm not here. Just wanted to call out that DRM thing because it's a widespread misconception and deserves to be rebutted IMO.  

[Grignard_TN]

23 hours ago, Hawk said:

I don't care for that phrase so much that I turn off the subtitles and the audio dialog. That's really my only negative feelings about this game.

Being a Christian, hearing that is a really huge turn off in an otherwise great game.

Alright. He can criticize me all he wants for saying God damn, and I'll give the bastard as much time as he needs to explain why children get bone cancer and priests are pedophiles. I can't believe there are still people who are  put off by the mere words God Damn.

[Guest kristaok]

@Raphael van Lierop Thanks I really did not know that, I've just always assumed that Steam is not drm free, and GOG is drm free. Thanks for letting me know this because for the longest time I was only buying GOG Games, that was until I found out that there were Games that I wanted but they were only on Steam (not on GOG). So it's good to know that Devs can opt into this, so thanks for making TLD drm free! 

ps. I hope nobody would ever pirate this Game, it's the best! and this recent sale on Steam for only 7 bucks really is a steal! especially for all this Game offers!  

[MikeyPdog]

Hi,

I'm one of the modders also. I love TLD and have clocked 270 hours on it. I was in the games industry for 7 years as lead designer and shipped a number of AAA games, and truly appreciate how horrible it is to have people flame and criticise your work when you dedicate years of your life to it.

I also totally agree that its frustrating when you've got a vision for a game and people ruin it by changing mechanics that you have explicitly placed for a reason.

However, one thing I learnt when making a game is that it's near impossible to get good endgame balance right for expert players that have clocked 200+ hours and know every trick. Simply having a QA department play something like interloper to 100 days multiple times is not feasible financially and playing your own game so many times it becomes hard to see the game with a fresh pair of eyes - it's too easy to fall into the trap of playing it 'how it was intended to be played' rather than 'how players actually play it'. Also, I understand that when making a game which sells on the back of an initial purchase price, the most important thing is the first few hours of gameplay and so financially it makes no difference if players play for 10 hours or 500.

This is where I think modding can come in - I frequently talk to expert players who understand what little tweaks could be inserted to keep the game interesting and fresh past the first 100-200 hours. I know this is probably a small, niche core of players compared to the wider more casual audience. However, these players can be the most dedicated and vocal in terms of supporting the game online and by word of mouth. Most of my mods are to improve endgame balance and to make more items useful, rather than destroying any vision you might have of how the game is expected to be played. 

Here's a minor example which maybe only expert players would notice: On interloper, collecting cat tails between cinder hills coal mine and Barn on pleasant valley collects you ~30 cat tails, giving you 4500 calories, using starvation thats 6 days worth of food, or equivalent to 2/3rds of an entire deer. I know this isn't a deal breaker for the majority of more casual players, but a lot of us think hunting deer with a bow should be a lot more rewarding than collecting a few cat tails between locations. Similarly, if i'm playing interloper, I want deer to run away when i get anywhere near them. I want to be firing from far away. I want my bow to swing around wildly until i've levelled up. I want to track a deer across the map and take note of the wind direction and get caught in a blizzard because i've gone too far for too long. Expert players WANT to play the game with the interesting bits, and they want the game balanced so that the most fun and interesting way to play is also the most efficient and rewarding.
Another example which might seem minor, chopping limbs gives you less wood burn time than the equivalent time collecting sticks and leaves you vulnerable to wolf attack and uses a hatchet etc. Wood management by expert players typically involves collecting sticks, coal and reclaiming wood when starving (calories burned doing exercise doesnt matter if you dont have any calories!) I would love to see a fir limb and get excited and then ensure i'm warm enough and prepare to chop it up. Similarly, branches don't give enough sticks to be worth breaking them either - these items being useless is a real shame because expert players want to utilise all the items and mechanics in the game and these things have 5 minute fixes.

All that said - there are other ways to fix the endgame issues without mods. For example I worked on a game previously where we had an active group of mature expert players recommending and discussing endgame balance tweaks, working closely with the lead designer to understand the vision so solutions to problems could be invented in the context of the overall direction.

I know its a completely different genre (and revenue model), but another example is Blizzard regularly beta tested endgame content with the top guilds in the world for World of Warcraft. I'm sure I could collect a handful of 200+ hour expert players and modders to provide some more structured feedback to the state of the endgame / interloper / balance, if that would be helpful.

One last thing I make mods for is the challenge side. All challenges default to the same difficulty which makes them samey / easy for expert players, but challenges are very interesting for players that want a specific structured goal in the game whilst still keeping the openness of a sandbox. Recently I released a customisable whiteout challenge with a handful of preset challenges which is fantastic for expert players who want to really challenge themselves, and its not much code to simply open up the shopping list to customise. I previously released a custom nomad challenge which I had brilliant fun playing - playing nomad on interloper is great fun as it takes you across the whole map. Simply allowing players to select a different difficulty for challenges would provide a slew of new replayability options for a very small amount of code.

Anyway, it's great to hear you starting to embrace the modding community at last. We all truly love your game and we just want to help make it even better.

 

[Admin]

@Grignard_TN: attacks on other people and their beliefs won't be tolerated - you have been warned. Please stay on the topic at hands.