All mods are disabled entirely on new update

[Raphael van Lierop]

2 minutes ago, FINDarkside said:

I agree with you, there's a difference. Everyone else is talking about TLD, modding, reddit and so on, while you are talking about my health. 😂Hinterland employees were the only active moderators and made the rules. I won't continue this any further, I already quoted you the relevant part of reddit guidelines. Trying to prevent people talking about mods in r/thelongdark was a mistake.

But...our actions in the subreddit did not contravene the guidelines in any way. Imposing our desire to discourage a discussion of unofficial modding and hacking the game is not a conflict of interest. Also, we were never the only moderators.

***

In any case -- it's unfortunate there is so much bad blood between the sub-reddit and (mostly) myself, and so many untruths that have somehow become canon over time. I genuinely enjoyed my interactions there up to a point, and used to proudly proclaim it as yet another example of how great our community was. Making it sound like our issues were due to a discussion about modding is specious. The only point we ran into conflict with the subreddit was when I and other members of my team were attacked and threatened (including death threats levied at me) due to the unfortunate "countdown" incident in 2017. That was the cause of our abandonment of the sub. 

I've had lots of fun doing AMAs outside the sub and would be more than happy to do more in the future. So my beef isn't with the reddit community as a whole, or even the desire to not be moderated per se, but how the lack of our ability to moderate or influence the discussion contributed to a ton of hostility and hatred being showered on us. 

Yes, some sub-reddits are great and welcoming to developers, and in our experience the TLD subreddit was not one of those places (suddenly, after being mostly positive for a really long time). It's sad but just the way it is. And has almost nothing to do with modding.

[WellsleyFarms]

20 minutes ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

Stop twisting my words.

I made an account just to respond here...
I don't think he's twisting your words at all.
When I read what you wrote I felt exactly the same thing.

I don't think wanting certain parts of my game to not be bugged is antagonizing, and the fact someone else is putting in work to fix that is great.
I don't want to be insulting to you, but the game has problems that other people have fixed, for free. That's a good thing for me. 

Edited May 8, 2019 by WellsleyFarms
typo

[ManicManiac]

@WellsleyFarms
No one can control how other people chose to interpret and internalize that is being presented.  I suppose most people will biases everything to try and fit it into their own point of view.  Other people here have clearly already made up your minds, and have negatively constructed a version of reality that fits their world view.  - I am very sorry to see that, but how others wish to see the world is entirely up to them.

This topic clearly got derailed along time ago.   

 

Edited May 8, 2019 by ManicManiac

[ThePancakeLady]

6 minutes ago, WellsleyFarms said:

I made an account just to respond here...
I don't think he's twisting your words at all.
When I read what you wrote I felt exactly the same thing.

I don't think wanting certain parts of my game to not be bugged is antagonizing, and the fact someone else is putting in work to fix that is great.
I don't want to be insulting to you, but the game has problems that other people have fixed, for free. That's a good thing for me. 

Can someone tell me exactly what actual bugs were fixed by any of these mods? 

How is flying over the world (and over any and all wolves and bears) fixing a bug? How is giving yourself unlimited inventory space fixing a bug? How is giving yourself any item you want at any particular time, without exploring the world to search for it fixing a bug? How is giving yourself the ability to never get cold, hungry or thirsty fixing a bug?

 

Exactly what bugs did any mod fix? And please, define what you and others think a "bug" is? 

 

 

[WellsleyFarms]

1 hour ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

You may feel modding our game is your right, but it is not. When we are ready, we will provide a properly vetted EULA which will outline the appropriate use of mods and all the correct legal language around their use and distribution.

I mean, you're wrong on that front. It's not illegal to mod games and publish mods, they aren't being sold.
You can say whatever you like in your EULA, and we can agree to it, but if it's incorrect in the eyes of the law then that contract is void.

 

15 minutes ago, hozz1235 said:

Getting pretty argumentative here...

In summary, I think those that support mods have made their viewpoint and desire known.  Raph has clearly stated his current viewpoint on mods and we don't have much choice other than to be okay with that and anxiously await the day HL will support mods (hopefully sooner rather than later!) 

If we want HL to support mods, I certainly don't think we should piss off the ones who can give it to us (despite how we feel).

And I'm sorry but you're wrong as well. We do have a choice, continue to put effort and time into modding. They didn't approve of it before and look at all the great things we accomplished. 

[Raphael van Lierop]

17 minutes ago, WellsleyFarms said:

I made an account just to respond here...
I don't think he's twisting your words at all.
When I read what you wrote I felt exactly the same thing.

I don't think wanting certain parts of my game to not be bugged is antagonizing, and the fact someone else is putting in work to fix that is great.
I don't want to be insulting to you, but the game has problems that other people have fixed, for free. That's a good thing for me. 

Not really sure what else to say or do, then. Please re-read my original response again.

We fix bugs as quickly as we can, do a lot of work to validate those fixes across all our platforms, to help ensure the best experience possible for all our players. If there are real bugs to be fixed, the best way the community can contribute to that is to submit reports to our Support Portal (www.hinterlandgames.com/support), answer our questions, and provide whatever logging we need, etc. That way we can fix, verify, and roll out to everyone.

Some of the things people want to "fix" are not bugs, a bug being an outcome in game behaviour that is not by design. We'd prefer people not do that, but if they have to do it, we'd prefer they don't broadcast it. I've outlined the reasons why. It's possible this is just one of those things where two points of view cannot be reconciled.

Trying to simplify the discussion to "people fixing bugs is a good thing for me" is kind of a disingenuous way to frame the discussion, in my opinion. But it's fine. People will believe what they want to believe and take the stance they want to take (that's not pointed at you specifically -- just a general comment). I've tried to be transparent about our POV on mods and our reason for it, and I understand that not everyone will be happy with it. I'm sorry about that, but it doesn't change anything. We'll support mods properly when we are ready.

[WellsleyFarms]

Just now, ThePancakeLady said:

Can someone tell me exactly what actual bugs were fixed by any of these mods? 

How is flying over the world (and over any and all wolves and bears) fixing a bug? How is giving yourself unlimited inventory space fixing a bug? How is giving yourself any item you want at any particular time, without exploring the world to search for it fixing a bug? How is giving yourself the ability to never get cold, hungry or thirsty fixing a bug?

 

Exactly what bugs did any mod fix? And please, define what you and others think a "bug" is? 

 

 

Hey there! You seem to have a misunderstanding of the mods which were created.
Yes there are some "god mode" mods which existed.
I'm not trying to pretend that fly mode, inventory manipulation, etc is fixing a bug.

The Custom mode settings were pretty buggy and messed up, despite changing them they actually changed nothing.
There were some issues with crafting where you might get stuck in an infinite loop and just have to watch your character starve/freeze to death. 
Torches were coded strangely to always give the same % based on where you stood.
You used to be able to shoot a bow that wasn't fully crafted (only spend 30 minutes making and it worked as if you spent 5 hours)
A bunch of other things were added that certainly weren't cheating, and that's not all mods are about anyway.
Thanks for taking the time to read my rambling

[Amazombie]

6 minutes ago, ThePancakeLady said:

Can someone tell me exactly what actual bugs were fixed by any of these mods? 

How is flying over the world (and over any and all wolves and bears) fixing a bug? How is giving yourself unlimited inventory space fixing a bug? How is giving yourself any item you want at any particular time, without exploring the world to search for it fixing a bug? How is giving yourself the ability to never get cold, hungry or thirsty fixing a bug?

 

Exactly what bugs did any mod fix? And please, define what you and others think a "bug" is? 

 

 

Seems you are the one who is uninformed its not all "cheat mods" like you seem to think. I've seen some that fix lighting issues, and before the update to sprains fixed issues with that. 

While I didnt use any to fix "bugs" I did use many that were quality of life mods. Stacking ability, Shorter reading intervals, the ability to break down the trash littering the poi's . Nothing that gave any type of unfair advantage. You seem to have the same view as some on here that Modding and Cheating is one in the same and that simply is not it. 

Edited May 8, 2019 by Amazombie

[Guest kristaok]

1 hour ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

 

Thanks, you explaining this has really helped me to see some things. It took me a while to break it down and understand some of it, I have been rereading it over and over. You said at the end you hope we can see your point on this, and I think I can. 

I agree getting the Game optimized and running well for the Players matters more than Mods.

Plus sometimes Mods can make the Game too easy and over time you lose the fun of it. 

[WellsleyFarms]

Just now, kristaok said:

Thanks, you explaining this has really helped me to see some things. It took me a while to break it down and understand some of it, I have been rereading it over and over. You said at the end you hope we can see your point on this, and I think I can. 

I agree getting the Game optimized and running well for the Players matters more than Mods.

Plus sometimes Mods can make the Game too easy and over time you lose the fun of it. 

On the back of that, modding brought back life into my game.
I'd spent a good 100-120 hours on vanilla/normal gameplay and that was it.
Mods for TLD brought another 400 hours into my life and I'm so glad I got to experience that.

They can certainly make the game too easy, but they can also make the game much harder! It depends how you allow yourself to play
Much love and hope you quiet apocalypse goes strong!

 

[Raphael van Lierop]

5 minutes ago, WellsleyFarms said:

Hey there! You seem to have a misunderstanding of the mods which were created.
Yes there are some "god mode" mods which existed.
I'm not trying to pretend that fly mode, inventory manipulation, etc is fixing a bug.

The Custom mode settings were pretty buggy and messed up, despite changing them they actually changed nothing.
There were some issues with crafting where you might get stuck in an infinite loop and just have to watch your character starve/freeze to death. 
Torches were coded strangely to always give the same % based on where you stood.
You used to be able to shoot a bow that wasn't fully crafted (only spend 30 minutes making and it worked as if you spent 5 hours)
A bunch of other things were added that certainly weren't cheating, and that's not all mods are about anyway.
Thanks for taking the time to read my rambling

Yup -- all bugs that have since been fixed, to my knowledge.

[WellsleyFarms]

4 minutes ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

Yup -- all bugs that have since been fixed, to my knowledge.

And that's genuinely great to hear.
I'm probably not going to update my PC version of the game...
but I'll try it on Xbox One however playing that's largely been impossible with the game just being too dark. 

[FINDarkside]

20 minutes ago, ThePancakeLady said:

Can someone tell me exactly what actual bugs were fixed by any of these mods? 

* Blue print scrolling
* Caches not added to map when discovered
* Custom difficulty deserialization 
* Deterministic torch condition
* "Eternal crafting bug"
* Exploitable cooking skill (cooking very small pieces for lots of xp)
* Food poisoning chance
* Hunting lodge temperature
* Ice fishing hole exploit
* In progress bow being equippable fix
* Performance issue by steam controller detection
* Settings changing for simply opening menu
* No drinking sounds when "monologue" is off
* Fix z fighting of dropped items
* Dropped item rotation
* Ruined snow shelter not being destroyable
* Head slot fix
* Map not showing all discovered details
* Gun shooting at center of screen instead of where the the barrel points at
* "Wildlife Respawn Frequency" working reversed in custom difficulty ("low" makes spawn more frequent)
* Crafting menu showing wrong crafting time
* Performance issue with breath effect

Of course, some of these might be more like features than bug fixes, but many of these are obvious bugs. Not sure which of these are fixed by now.

You seem to think that mods we had were all limited to make the game easier. There were also mods that made it harder, mods that added new items, mods that made dragging corpses possible, mods that added electric blankets that needs car battery to work and so on.

E: Seems like WellsleyFarms was faster.

Edited May 8, 2019 by FINDarkside

[StrangerFromTheInternet]

10 minutes ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

Yup -- all bugs that have since been fixed, to my knowledge.

The head clothing slots are still swapped 😋

Most of the bugs on my list have definitely been fixed, but I haven't been able to check all of them yet 😃
I'm especially curious if the "wildlife respawn frequency" setting finally does what it's supposed to do. That bug goes all the way back to the test branch update where custom modes were first introduced

[Raphael van Lierop]

6 minutes ago, WellsleyFarms said:

And that's genuinely great to hear.
I'm probably not going to update my PC version of the game...
but I'll try it on Xbox One however playing that's largely been impossible with the game just being too dark. 

Have you played with the lighting/gamma slider to see if that helps? I assume you've also checked your TV settings? The game shouldn't be too dark to play on any platform.

[Pillock]

6 minutes ago, FINDarkside said:

* "Wildlife Respawn Frequency" working reversed in custom difficulty ("low" makes spawn more frequent)

Is this one still in the game?

Just so I know to put it the other way around next time!

[Raphael van Lierop]

7 minutes ago, FINDarkside said:

* Blue print scrolling
* Caches not added to map when discovered
* Custom difficulty deserialization 
* Deterministic torch condition
* "Eternal crafting bug"
* Exploitable cooking skill (cooking very small pieces for lots of xp)
* Food poisoning chance
* Hunting lodge temperature
* Ice fishing hole exploit
* In progress bow being equippable fix
* Performance issue by steam controller detection
* Settings changing for simply opening menu
* No drinking sounds when "monologue" is off
* Fix z fighting of dropped items
* Dropped item rotation
* Ruined snow shelter not being destroyable
* Head slot fix
* Map not showing all discovered details
* Gun shooting at center of screen instead of where the the barrel points at
* "Wildlife Respawn Frequency" working reversed in custom difficulty ("low" makes spawn more frequent)
* Crafting menu showing wrong crafting time
* Performance issue with breath effect

Of course, some of these might be more like features than bug fixes, but many of these are obvious bugs. Not sure which of these are fixed by now.

You seem to think that mods we had were all limited to make the game easier. There were also mods that made it harder, mods that added new items, mods that made dragging corpses possible, mods that added electric blankets that needs car battery to work and so on.

E: Seems like WellsleyFarms was faster.

This is a great list. MOST of the issues have been fixed, I believe, and some are in line for one or two hotfixes from now.

[Raphael van Lierop]

1 minute ago, Pillock said:

Is this one still in the game?

Just so I know to put it the other way around next time!

We did a pass on those recently and updated the language/tooltips to try to clarify all of the settings, but do let us know if it's still not working: hinterlandgames.com/support

[Guest kristaok]

17 minutes ago, WellsleyFarms said:

On the back of that, modding brought back life into my game.
I'd spent a good 100-120 hours on vanilla/normal gameplay and that was it.
Mods for TLD brought another 400 hours into my life and I'm so glad I got to experience that.

They can certainly make the game too easy, but they can also make the game much harder! It depends how you allow yourself to play
Much love and hope you quiet apocalypse goes strong!

 

True, I agree.  But what Raph said really got me thinking, I can understand why he wants to put his Game and getting it fixed fully before mods. 

[ThePancakeLady]

24 minutes ago, Amazombie said:

Seems you are the one who is uninformed its not all "cheat mods" like you seem to think. I've seen some that fix lighting issues, and before the update to sprains fixed issues with that. 

While I didnt use any to fix "bugs" I did use many that were quality of life mods. Stacking ability, Shorter reading intervals, the ability to break down the trash littering the poi's . Nothing that gave any type of unfair advantage. You seem to have the same view as some on here that Modding and Cheating is one in the same and that simply is not it. 

Show me where I said "cheat mods" in the post you quoted? And since you can't... please stop twisting my words. 

And again, please go back and see my post where I tell folks i am ALSO a modder, and 3 members of my family are modders. I know what modding is, I DO it. You seem to have a blindfold on that keeps you from reading what is actually written, and seem to take any question simply asking for information as a direct threat to your... something. I mod, I love creating QoL mods, and cosmetic mods, and even "God mods". But I do so in games that support modding,and give me dev and studio supported modding tools, that work with their games. 

 

And when Hinterland gives us tools to create modifications that work with their game and game engine, i will mod the heck out of it, like I also said before. (I guess you missed that too...). 

[WellsleyFarms]

1 minute ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

Have you played with the lighting/gamma slider to see if that helps? I assume you've also checked your TV settings? The game shouldn't be too dark to play on any platform.

I appreciate you're not tech support, and this thread probably isn't the best spot for getting into this issue right now. (really off topic!)
 I've said what I needed to say, which is basically summed up as "I like mods, they made the game fun for me again." 

What I'll do is give it another run through, and if it's still incredibly dark in all scenarios send you guys a tweet or something? 

[Pillock]

18 minutes ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

We did a pass on those recently and updated the language/tooltips to try to clarify all of the settings, but do let us know if it's still not working: hinterlandgames.com/support

Yup, will do. Thanks.

To be honest I've been playing for a long time over several updates with the Animal Respawn setting at 'Low', expecting it to mean that the respawn time would be slower/longer, and I've never really noticed whether it was working in that way or not! I just assumed the respawn times I was getting were the slowest the game offered, and got on with it.

All I can say is that I shot the Misanthrope bear the other day in my first post-Steadfast Ranger start, and he respawned at almost exactly the same time as I finished clearing the carcass site - about 4 days (or so) later.

Edited May 8, 2019 by Pillock

[marx]

Hello, new account here, a player with around 400 hours in the game. I've registered specifically to share my opinion here, even more so because the creative director of the game is responding to the thread.

Personally, mods have extended my enjoyment of TLD a lot. I don't think I would have played half as much this time (to me, 400 hours is a lot) without them. I mostly play sandbox survival mode, although I have played the redux story mode as well. I like the latest update, it has turned out mostly well, but if from this point on I'll have to choose between new updates or mods, I'll go with the latter. You see, certain mods (I take it naming specific ones is frowned upon here?) made the game have a better endgame and a better challenge than Interloper. I'd love it if various things were added as optional challenges to the game, but it doesn't look like that's going to happen any time soon.

I'd rather not have to choose between mods and official updates, but if I'll have to, then I'll just hold off on updating the game until there's official mod support. (The survival updates so far were good, but I don't think I'd take them over what mods can offer.) However, given the past history of the promise, I don't expect this to happen before the story mode is complete.

Oh, and for the record, I've never used any save editor or cheats, nor do I plan to. I know a few TLD players (including one whom I introduced to the game), and none of them are using any mods to make the game easier.

I don't see the relationship between a game and its modders as inherently hostile, in fact. Generally, the latter are working on it out of love of the game (it's not like they are being paid to make mods), not to spite the developers or something. TLD is a great game, and some mods can make it even better.

As for the EULA: I can't seem to find it, nor do I remember if there was any I had to agree to. Would somebody mind pointing me towards it? (Assuming there is one, that is.) If there is going to be a change to it to prohibit mods before there is any official mod support, then I won't agree to the change, and I wouldn't buy anything from Hinterland again. If such a change would come after official mod support is added, then fair do-s.

Also, while I'm on my soapbox: Would you mind revising the stance that feats don't progress in custom difficulty? I think it's unfair that if I want to play "Interloper lite", then they won't progress, but if I play Pilgrim, then they do.

That's all from me then. Thanks for reading, and to those who work on the game, thank you for all your efforts!

[Raphael van Lierop]

Just now, WellsleyFarms said:

I appreciate you're not tech support, and this thread probably isn't the best spot for getting into this issue right now. (really off topic!)
 I've said what I needed to say, which is basically summed up as "I like mods, they made the game fun for me again." 

What I'll do is give it another run through, and if it's still incredibly dark in all scenarios send you guys a tweet or something? 

Yes, or, like I said, submitting a support ticket is the best way to help us help you: www.hinterlandgames.com/support

(I'm not "support" but our support team is a bit short due to sickness so we're all pitching in to help!)

[StrangerFromTheInternet]

3 minutes ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

We did a pass on those recently and updated the language/tooltips to try to clarify all of the settings, but do let us know if it's still not working: hinterlandgames.com/support

The language really isn't the problem here, the problem is maths: frequency = 1 / time  😃

When players select "animal respawn frequency = low", they instead get "time between respawns = low", which means a high respawn frequency, which is the opposite of what they wanted.

I just checked, and this bug is indeed still in the game. Respawn times are 4 times longer when selecting the "Very High" respawn frequency, so the respawn frequency on "Very High" is just 25% of what it is on "Low"