Snowshoes

[pw10a2sal]

It´s my first post in this community, so I give you a quick summary of my relation to "The Long Dark". I play it since the early access version, which was sold in gog.com.

I have this idea which I would  like to share. Maybe you like it and could implement it in the game.

I am writing from Germany and I tried to find a good source to be convincing whoever is reading this. So the best source I could come up with is, wikipedia. I found a german page which I translated  with the help of google translator.

Here is the link.

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fde.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FSchneeschuh%23Moorschuh

I think the early snowshoes reseambling a tennis racket could be even crafted with the materials used for the bow, and for a wire piece from Broken Railroad, Desolation Point and even Mistery Lake. 

Needless to say, I never used them, but since its even a canadian invention, this should be a must in the game.

I hope the game devlops further in the spirit  in which it was created, and does not turn in a shooter or worse. 

A fan. 

P.S.: why isn´t there any rudimentary sled possible ? Put togheter with the snow shoes, it would be like traveling in the antartica. I´ve seen this on documentaries. I love the style of this game and I purchased it on steam, too. For my PC. I spread the word to a few people. I will not go on facebook or twitter or other social platforms, you will not find me there. Just as information. I have a little non-commercial channel on youtube, but that´s all I have to offer, except my ideas.

My compliments to the developers for this great unique game. I love it the way it has gone until now. Great Job Hinterland !!!  Yours faithfully.

[Mroz4k]

Hi, and welcome to the forums!

Snowshoes are quite a popular idea here on forums, many people suggested them in the past. It is a good thing that you did as well - from what I saw so far, things that community suggests the most are usually the ideas that actually make it into the game eventually. And this one is quite popular.

While I think most of us understand the basic concept, it would certainly help if you could write down some extra details about this idea, according to you. Things like - what would be the weight of snowshoes as an item? Would they be classified as boots, or as Accessories? You said they could be crafted - what would you suggest as a crafting recipe? How many hours to finish the crafting? Can they be repaired, and how? 

Also, if the snowshoes were equipped, what would they do for the player? Increase walking speed? If so, by how much?

You already mentioned crafting them, using the "bow" materials, and a wire. I don't think the "wire" is necessary because it is not an item in the game yet. Instead, I think you could create the "netting" by using cured guts and the frame would be made out of two "green" maple saplings. Lots of cured guts. Many primitive snowshoe designs used ropes instead of wires.  

On the subject of sleds - that is also a popular idea. The reason it is not in the game yet, in my opinion, is because programming the sleds would be very difficult. There is no such thing as sleds already in the game, the Hinterland would have to figure out how would the player use the sleds, if the sled would be some sort of "object" the player drags around the map, also how would they solve it in case of places where you need to walk over a fallen tree, or what if one had to drag the sled up a very steep hill. Also, are sleds really that useful? Right now, the player can carry quite a lot simply in their inventory. I am not sure Hinterland want to promote players to collect up lots of equipment and then drag them into their main base, I think the idea is mostly that "inventory capacity" is there to kind of limit the player into having to chose which equipment to bring along, and which they need to leave behind. I used to like the idea in the past - but when one thinks about it, they would not bring that much into the game, only promote hoarding even more. I can also see their use as being a bit of a problem, if the players loaded the sleds with animal quarters, which are supposed to attract predators... in order to avoid getting the "smelliness" level. I am not entirely sure sleds would be worth that much trouble to code them in.

[pw10a2sal]

It seems that, you thought about this item more than I did. And thanks for the welcome.

I try to answer your questions, bit by bit. I never wore them, so, the thing is, I would just welcome the snowshoes in any shape or form. But now my personal two cents about your questions.

- what would be the weight of snowshoes as an item?

The Item would weigh about 2 kg per each feet. Much more if they are made out of wood and guts or ropes. Because the guts cannot be as strong as wire at equal weight, so the weight for a guts piece has to go only up.

- Would they be classified as boots, or as Accessories?

definitly as Accessories, and the guts could tie them at the workboots or any other bootlike item.

- what would you suggest as a crafting recipe?

As you suggested, two maple pieces cutted and cured and some guts (better would be nails though) also cured and a piece of wire cutted by the wirecutter out of the fences in the mentioned areas.

- How many hours to finish the crafting?

I myself tried to make out of wire, some protection for my bycicle carriage, and with the right tools (quality tools for example) and gloves, I needed for 2 meters of protection 5 to 6 hours. To assemble it to the wood I would take more than 1 day, if Will is very tired, it could take a week.  But the devs could leave some of them anywhere around, ready for use, although that could be unlikely because of rust and the danger to become injured by handling rusty wires. Not to mention that rope or guts piece could deteriorate much faster when in use.

- Can they be repaired, and how?

if the wood is fine, the guts could be replaced and the wire or the other guts should be replaced, if the wood isn´t fine, you should replace that as well, and that involves searching the maple trees which could take a long time and a lot of danger (wolfes).  

- Also, if the snowshoes were equipped, what would they do for the player?  

Snowshoes in general give you traction in the wire example, in the guts example, they give you a better stability when walking as well but they would make Will very tired after a while, which exposes our hero at attacks of wolves.

- Increase walking speed? 

No way they increase walking speed, they increase just on plain surface the traction which with each step gives Will less effort to walk and in stormy weather, he can stay more upright than without, but that would be all. There would no chance to run with any snowshoe. It just saves strength. Which in turn could be serve to carry more.

- Quote "I don't think the "wire" is necessary because it is not an item in the game yet. Instead, I think you could create the "netting" by using cured guts and the frame would be made out of two "green" maple saplings. Lots of cured guts. Many primitive snowshoe designs used ropes instead of wires." End Quote

Your ropes would have to be made out of a climbing cord by cutting the rope in half or a quarter or untie the ropes cords using a sewing kit ( in this case you need a scissor which unties the cord, I have to explain how i immagine a cord here: a climbing cord is 5 kg heavy, that implies that more than one cord is twined togheter, conclusion: I have to untwin the cord to get smaller versions of the cord, which in turn ties the guts or ropes toghether with the maple wood.)

Sorry if my English is at some point not understandable. As I heared already from you, other people thought about at it as well, I would accept them in any shape or form. If I forgot something, I try to answer. But I do not want to make the "Know_it_all"-Guy here. I just thought: "If it is a canadian invention, why isn´it it there ?" I understand that additional coding is necessary, but that´s anyway needed if the devs want to add this item at the end. If not, well, c´est la vie. 

Edited April 26, 2019 by pw10a2sal

[pw10a2sal]

2 hours ago, Mroz4k said:

Hi,

On the subject of sleds - that is also a popular idea. The reason it is not in the game yet, in my opinion, is because programming the sleds would be very difficult. There is no such thing as sleds already in the game, the Hinterland would have to figure out how would the player use the sleds, if the sled would be some sort of "object" the player drags around the map, also how would they solve it in case of places where you need to walk over a fallen tree, or what if one had to drag the sled up a very steep hill. Also, are sleds really that useful? Right now, the player can carry quite a lot simply in their inventory. I am not sure Hinterland want to promote players to collect up lots of equipment and then drag them into their main base, I think the idea is mostly that "inventory capacity" is there to kind of limit the player into having to chose which equipment to bring along, and which they need to leave behind. I used to like the idea in the past - but when one thinks about it, they would not bring that much into the game, only promote hoarding even more. I can also see their use as being a bit of a problem, if the players loaded the sleds with animal quarters, which are supposed to attract predators... in order to avoid getting the "smelliness" level. I am not entirely sure sleds would be worth that much trouble to code them in.

The sled is only great on lakes, or the parts covered with snow, the icy roads are not good for a sled and the thing with fallen trees, the sled should be taken around them, which prolongs the staying in the cold and our Hero would suffer soon Hypertermia. True is also what you write about the predators if there is some flesh on the sled, I thought to use sled only to get material faster from A to B, but the wolves are always a problem if you play in the "Stalker" and more difficult Modes, you are right there. Not to mention about the hills, a heavy sled is only good if your hero is healty and has some traction under his feet which are worth mentioning. For example if the snowshoes are deteriorated, they could break, spraining your wrist, our Hero falling down and get bruises plus the sled should gain momentum and falling the hill down. That would be a major coding problem, since the whole unity programm has foremost static objects in the game. You are right there. Maybe a sled is not a good idea.

Edited April 26, 2019 by pw10a2sal

[Guest kristaok]

I know Snow Shoes have been mentioned quite a lot, but I wonder how they would benefit TLD? - I do want to see Sleds though, because they would benefit the Player by allowing them to carry much more weight... well PULL much more weight hehe. 

Edited April 26, 2019 by kristaok

[pw10a2sal]

11 minutes ago, kristaok said:

I know Snow Shoes have been mentioned quite a lot, but I wonder how they would benefit TLD? - I do want to see Sleds though, because they would benefit the Player by allowing them to carry much more weight... well PULL much more weight hehe. 

I always think of Snowshoes, when Will is slowing down because of a little Hill, perhaps you take as example that little downhill when leaving the trappers cabin in direction to the tunnel which leads to Forlorn Muskeg. I always try to transport things from trappers cabin to the mystery lake house. Back and forth. I see myself going easier, when transporting fish to trappers cabin and metal from the dam to trappers cabin. You might say, "why not stop at the lookout house, and make you hq there ?", To far and steep to transport heavy flesh from Mystery Lake or other areas. I prefer really something like trappers cabin, because there aren´t so many wolves as at Mystery Lake House, which always hunt me in my dreams. And for real... LoL (Maybe I should put some Pics down here. I put´em into the screenshots section if I got time.)

Edited April 26, 2019 by pw10a2sal

[Mroz4k]

I am sure you could pull the sled over an icy road as well, that would not be really the problem in my opinion. I do see a bit of a problem with the hills - they are very common in TLD, in some places to get somewhere, you need to rise into a very steep hill and i cant really see the sled as very helpful there.

As for the issue with the trees and similar obstacles - in real world, that would mean unpacking the sled, carrying the contents over manually, picking the empty sled up and carrying it over as well, then loading it all up again. 

I am not so sure it would be best if players could haul lots of gear from spot A to spot B, it would promote hoarding which is not exactly a good way to play this game, as soon as you are fully outfitted, it is very easy to lose interest in the game. Besides, I am not even sure it would be that useful - because what is the difference, if you make a couple of trips between A and B, or if instead you load all that gear from those "couple of trips" on a sled and haul it from A to B in one go, but it will still take the exact amount of time as if you made a few trips... wouldnt it be pointless? Apart of the fact that you get the satisfaction of dragging the sled over...

I put some thought into the smelliness factor, that could be solved fairly easy. The "sled" would attract the predators just as much as a "bait" on the ground would. Meaning if predators saw you dragging the sled, they would go "eat" the sled as if it was a bait, like it was a huge piece of Rabbit that you dropped down... eating all the "smelly" parts of the gear inside, the bigger amount of meat, the longer it would take them.

And each time you were "dragging the sled" the combined smell value of items on the sled would be "added" to your normal one, so you would attract the predators exactly the same way as if you were carrying the meat on your person.

[ThePancakeLady]

Snow shoes have been brought up, many times, here and on the Steam forums. I like the idea, but several concerns have always come up as well.

You can't really run while wearing snowshoes. So, what happens to the Sprint function?

The large tennis racket style snow shoes are basically used on flat, snowy surfaces, without much slop. They do not provide stable footing on steep slopes, which the game terrain has a great deal of. Alpine snowshoes would be better suited, and could possibly be crafted, using a different design. But does it benefit the gameplay enough to make it worth the time and effort?  

I do think the recipe, maple saplings or birch saplings, possibly Moose hide for the leather netting (tough, durable, and difficult to obtain) makes sense. Guts don't make much sense, we make thin line from guts, not heavy ropes, though a combination of leather and line from guts makes sense.. Native snowshoes often used leather of some sort. And these should be expensive to make, Moose or Bear hide makes more sense to me. The benefit of not sinking onto the snow, and keeping shoes, socks and feet drier would be somewhat balanced out by the fact that you cannot run in them. There would need to be a loss of time at the entrance to a building, and stairs outside of buildings, to take them off or put them on, no snowshoes indoors, IMHO. 

Honestly, I like the idea, but am not sure if they give enough gameplay value to be added, if they have not been added already. But, I do think they deserve some consideration. They would help with long treks, as or if the world grows larger with new regions. Sleds I will not talk about, we have plenty of other threads dedicated to the idea a of sled, where they have been discussed at length. 

Examples of Alpine Snowshoes (Longer and narrower for climbing slopes):

(Yes I love me some L.L.Bean, lol)

[Mroz4k]

7 hours ago, ThePancakeLady said:

You can't really run while wearing snowshoes. So, what happens to the Sprint function?

Simple enough. Each clothing item has a value that limits sprint to some amount. Snowshoes would have a value of 100%. If you put snowshoes on, you cannot sprint at all.

7 hours ago, ThePancakeLady said:

Guts don't make much sense, we make thin line from guts,

Guts are basically "a hose" of sorts. Meaning if wrinled or cut to stripes, it can serve as a thin line for sewing and bow string, but it most certainly is not a "thin" line. If you cut it with scissors along the entire lenght, you would get a stripe material, sort of like a seatbelt stripe, although not that wide. Still more than sufficient to make the netting.

That said, I don't have any issue with adding an expensive hide into the recipe, especially if its the alpine type of snowshoes. Moose, most likely, because as far as the hide attributes go, moose is the most water-resistant. And, if they were taken apart, then just like with the satchel, it would produce cured leather, two pieces in fact. It would also take cured leather for repairs.

 

 

1

7 hours ago, ThePancakeLady said:

The large tennis racket style snow shoes are basically used on flat, snowy surfaces, without much slop. They do not provide stable footing on steep slopes, which the game terrain has a great deal of. Alpine snowshoes would be better suited, and could possibly be crafted, using a different design. But does it benefit the gameplay enough to make it worth the time and effort?  

Its a game, not a realistic simulator, I don't see why it would have to be so overly complicated. And I do believe that anything that increases the movement speed of the player is something that would have a massive impact on the game. Don't really see much value in keeping boots & socks more dry, but on top of the other things, why not.
I really dont think it is necessary to "take the time away" when entering the buildings with snowshoes on, every other clothing type doesnt take time when you put them on and off. For all intent and purposes, you could enter indoors with snowhoes equipped, I think a general player is intelligent enough to understand that the survivor would take the snowshoes off when going inside.


 

[pw10a2sal]

My oppinion is, more modern shoes are too complicated to repair or to craft even. The traditional, old-fashioned type of shoe is easier to mantain and repair. A leather hide is useful to keep the shoe longer in use. IMHO I would still prefer a wire, because a) I do not have kill any animal for that b) the materials are in locations where predators are rare 

Examples: Maple trees are under the bridge near the carter dam, wire are near any human build construction which predators normally avoid unless there is food to get. And you can get them when the wolves stay in their caves or safe places during a icy storm. A moose is very rare to get, and therefore the shoes are bound for lesser territories than the wires. And you have to kill it. Not nice. Eskimos for example are used to hunt never alone, because of the danger.  Have to respect a natural relationship in face of the danger involved when you do things. Predators never fight to the death if they are faced with a liveform which their istinct says is equally or stronger than themselves. Normally they try smaller animals and ignore bigger ones if they are not forced to approach them.

 

I hate to see this game evolve into a shoot to survive thing. Even in the antartic or greenland, scientists never carry arms with them to make their research. Violence wouldn´t fit in the Hinterland policy I think, neither in my "policy". 

[pw10a2sal]

Quote: 

Its a game, not a realistic simulator, I don't see why it would have to be so overly complicated. And I do believe that anything that increases the movement speed of the player is something that would have a massive impact on the game. Don't really see much value in keeping boots & socks more dry, but on top of the other things, why not.
I really dont think it is necessary to "take the time away" when entering the buildings with snowshoes on, every other clothing type doesnt take time when you put them on and off. For all intent and purposes, you could enter indoors with snowhoes equipped, I think a general player is intelligent enough to understand that the survivor would take the snowshoes of when going inside

End Quote

True. And more dry boots and socks, mean a better posture when walking and more stamina and wider you can walk and carry. The speed of your steps would decrease because after a while the snow sticks together on the bigger surface, but on the other hand you are not likely to sink in deep snow and you cannot slip on ice with snow shoes, and therefore you can avoid injury at the feet. (this isn´t realy implemented wholy in the game for example you cannot slip on ice but was worth mentioning imho)

 

By the way: I love that picture of the wooden snowshoes. I think ropes are the better crafing material

Edited April 27, 2019 by pw10a2sal

[Mroz4k]

10 minutes ago, pw10a2sal said:

I would still prefer a wire, because a) I do not have kill any animal for that b) the materials are in locations where predators are rare 

The whole point should be that these should not be so easy to craft, the game should be more challenging, not less. And if the crafting included moose hide, then you would need to kill a moose to get it anyway.

12 minutes ago, pw10a2sal said:

Examples: Maple trees are under the bridge near the carter dam, wire are near any human build construction which predators normally avoid unless there is food to get. And you can get them when the wolves stay in their caves or safe places during a icy storm. A moose is very rare to get, and therefore the shoes are bound for lesser territories than the wires. And you have to kill it. Not nice. Eskimos for example are used to hunt never alone, because of the danger.  Have to respect a natural relationship in face of the danger involved when you do things. Predators never fight to the death if they are faced with a liveform which their istinct says is equally or stronger than themselves. Normally they try smaller animals and ignore bigger ones if they are not forced to approach them.

Ah, okay, you are a pacifist. Well, I am sorry to say, but hunting is part of the survival, whether you accept this fact or not. And while it is certainly possible to survive for quite a long while just by living off the plants and of the food, found in homes, eventually, you need to hunt to survive. Or at the very least, you need to contest with the natural predators for their prey. As in, you have to scare the wolves away from the deer they just killed, in order to make use of it. If you dont hunt, then you are purposely sacrificing your own chance to obtain certain items.

 

 

 

2

19 minutes ago, pw10a2sal said:

I hate to see this game evolve into a shoot to survive thing. Even in the antartic or greenland, scientists never carry arms with them to make their research. Violence wouldn´t fit in the Hinterland policy I think, neither in my "policy". 

While I respect your stance, this game did not evolve into such a thing, it was always about being able to hunt to survive. It is, and always was, an integral part of this game. And this game is not about arctic explorers, its about a person, being stranded in nature, trying to survive. Hunting in this game is not about sport, it is about survival. You kill to ensure you survive - I would not consider that violence, its a form of self-defense. If you are not willing to hunt, that is your choice, but then you should also accept what that means - that you will not be able to access certain items, that require crafting material earned from hunting.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

7

13 minutes ago, pw10a2sal said:

True. And more dry boots and socks, mean a better posture when walking and more stamina and wider you can walk and carry. The speed of your steps would decrease because after a while the snow sticks together on the bigger surface, but on the other hand you are not likely to sink in deep snow and you cannot slip on ice with snow shoes, and therefore you can avoid injury at the the feet. (this isn´t realy implemented wholy in the game but was worth mentioning imho)

This confuses me a little. You quote me in agreement, then you claim the exact opposite thing.

If using snowshoes decreased the movement speed, there would be no point in having them at all. Nor would it make sense - the prospect of adding snowshoes is that because your feet get buried in the snow, you are moving slow, by wearing the snowshoes, you dont bury into the snow anymore, which means you can walk around faster. Even if realistically this was not the case, for the purpose of the game it is good enough.

But having snowshoes only to keep your boots and socks dry? Nobody would use them. The other things are not really in the game, so they are not exactly relevant.

[pw10a2sal]

LOL of course you have to go in contest with predators there is no choice. What I am saying is just "Why go the hard way, if you can go a lesser dangerous way ?" I take pacifist as a compliment, because there are worse things than Peace. That´s a truism. (but enough of philosophy) I would take snowshoes to keep my boots and socks dry gladly. Especially after a day of walk and heavy soaked leather. Doing whatever you want. Your feet are the most important part of the body what movement involves, look at the paws of a wolf for example its build like our hands, our feet aren´t, they are slim and their toes are all in front. Therefore more incline to go deep into the snow, if you would have a hand shaped feet, it would stay longer on the upside of the snow. 

Boots are shaped the same form. Snowshoes aren´t. And I think you CAN arrive at a target in more than one way. You can use Moose hide, deer hide, wire, or ropes. Or you can even combine all of that to Reach your target, which is more traction, dry feet, safer walking and lesser danger of injuries. Of course there is a backside, you are open for an attack by a wolf pack, open for an attack by a bear and you cannot hunt successfully with those bulky shoes. (Or maybe you can, with a lot of luck). These shoes aren´t meant for hunting, for quick movements. That´s why they have to be light, you wear them when you need them, when you do something else you can unwear them. Nobody says to wear them all the time. Thats why you at the end have boots tied to the snowshoes. You can quickly untie them and do whatever you want with your boots still dry. 

Edited April 27, 2019 by pw10a2sal

[ThePancakeLady]

23 minutes ago, Mroz4k said:

But having snowshoes only to keep your boots and socks dry? Nobody would use them. The other things are not really in the game, so they are not exactly relevant.

Actually, this is part of the reason snowshoes were developed and used centuries ago. To keep your feet, and what covered them, from sinking into the snow, becoming caked with snow, that melted, froze your foot coverings and your feet, and caused frostbite and permanent tissue damage that IRL could cripple you and leave you unable to fend for yourself, and survive, and in game causes 10% permanent condition loss for each instance of frostbite. it is the ONLY reason I would craft them and wear them in the game. Because 2 instances of frostbite, from both feet getting soaked and freezing, sucks. That 20% permanent condition loss is enough motivation for me to keep my e fett, shoes and socks warm and dry.

 

Otherwise I would not even bother with them. Have you ever been snow-shoeing in deep snow country? I have. The snowshoes DO NOT let you move faster. they simply make staying on top of the snow easier, and prevent most instances of having your feet get stuck in deep snow, getting your boots filled with snow and ice, and needing medics to treat you for frostnip or frostbite. The tails on the back are there to b keep your feet straight in the snow, which makes turning difficult. You do not make sharp, fast turns. You go wide, always going wide, because you have to. You go slow and steady, not faster than if you did not have them on. your legs get tired, and hurt, because you are walking with your feet apart, your knees apart, not in a normal manner that most people are used to walking in. Unless you snow show every day, it hurts for a while until your legs get  used to it, h your hips get used to it, and your muscles get used to it.

 

The ONLY reason to use snowshoes IS to keep your feet from sinking into the snow, and freezing, becoming frostbitten. That is WHY they have been used for centuries. Not to make some Winter fashion statement and look "cool" in front of the other villagers or local wildlife.