Scurvy, Vitamins and Pine Needle tea

[VolkZayets]

Here's a wish list topic to discuss. I see snippets of it being mentioned, but thought I would roll it up into a suggestion for future dev/increased playability. that's a new health condition to manage, a manmade prevention to find as loot, and a natural forest remedy when the loot dries up.

If there is a concept relevant to long term wilderness survival, encountered by pioneers and explorers for centuries...its this. Not sayin'...just sayin'...

*mic drop*

[Mroz4k]

I am a big fan of having more afflictions in the game. Not sure if it has to be scurvy specifically, but as an idea, it certainly has great potential.

However, I am highly disappointed in this thread in itself. I would suggest you pick that mic up back again, and instead, put some actual effort into the idea. What you wrote is not a suggestion yet, altough I guess it would clasify as a wish... just not a wish anyone will take seriously.

When you suggest something, the easiest thing in the world is to say "add this". in two, three sentences, and leave it like that. But that brings nothing, to anyone.

If you suggest something, bring in the details as well. What would the scurvy do? What would be the symptoms, and how could one contract such a disease? How do you treat it? How do you get the pine needles as an item, specifically, where can they be found? How much do they weight? What is the recipe for the tea? What are the attributes of the tea as an item - in terms of calories, etc? Do you know this recipe, or do you learn it as you level up skills? What about rose hip tea - can it be used to treat scurvy as well? And there are many more questions like that, which could be answered simply by throwing down some specifics about this suggestion.

I am not trying to disrespect you, just trying to be honest with you - because you have pretty good ideas, but you don't put enough effort into them (the furthest you got was with the idea about sleds, which still lacked many details). And if you wonder why nobody really replies to your topic that much, that would be why - because as a community right now, we have nothing to really discuss in here. Since I know what scurvy is, I can roughly imagine what you might mean, but even I have to guess. Someone who has no idea what it is, and wont google it, is just not going to have anything to reply to.

Fix this up, put some real effort into it, and you will have my support, and I will happily discuss it with you further, as this is a topic Ive suggested in the past myself, except maybe the part about scurvy. Although I have discussed scurvy with others here, too. So Im sure I have something to bring to this conversation.

[Admin]

If you’re not interested in a fellow forum member’s post don’t post in the thread. 

If you want to tease out more details then ask questions that might drive conversation without including judgement. 

Such as:

How do you see that working?

and

What effects would that have?

Everyone has a different level of forum and community experience here and more experienced members should do their best to engage warmly and welcomingly rather than making this site feel like a test that needs to be passed. 

Of all our forum rules and guidelines kindness and treating each other with respect is absolutely the keystone. 

[Guest kristaok]

I agree that we should have Scurvy in the Game, likewise we should also have Rabbit Starvation... but perhaps it would help your post if you put why you believe Scurvy should be added, and why the Pine Needles would help with curing the Scurvy?

For me I think Scurvy should be an affliction because it's VERY realistic, and it happens due to not getting enough Vitamin C etc. It can be brought on by lack of Fruits, and this is where the Pine Needles well and eating more Fruits would come in.

I know it would take more coding and time but we already have Food Poisoning and Parasites which are both realistic issues, so I think we need these Afflictions to further enhance the Game. 

I think Scurvy should happen by not eating enough Fruits but I don't know how they will implement this... as for Rabbit Starvation that should be added by consuming too many Rabbits kind of like the Parasite Affliction.

[ThePancakeLady]

I used t think this illness would have to happen from the diet we eat in the game. A little research into how the Inuit and other Native peoples in the Northern reaches lived without fresh fruit and vegetables, and did not suffer from scurvy was eye-opening. The amount of Vitamin C  we need each day is well below what the US daily recommended dosages are, and is actually able to be gotten from meat and fish. The same goes for Vitamins A & D. The Inuit Paradox was what i found.  Really interesting reading for me, as I have to eat a very specific and controlled diet due to food allergies and medical conditions. Maybe a bot boring for other people, lol. But Google "Inuit Paradox", or just read this article...Discovery Magazine- Inuit Paradox . Yeah, our diet in the game may not match that of the Inuit or other Native people;'s, but the Paradox explains how and why we could live without large amounts of fruit and vegetables, and still do okay.

 

That said, I would still love to see more "veggies" in the game, like wild onions or leeks, and fern fiddleheads, that we would need to dig from the snow or frozen ground, and would require a new tool, the shovel. I imagine neither would be tasty alone, so cooking with multiple ingredients, to make soups or foil packet meals would be needed. So, it is not such a simple solution. But maybe, someday...

[Guest kristaok]

I always wondered how some places do it; eat less Fruit and Veggies without getting Scurvy... yet oddly other people are more apt to get it in other Countries... Anyway I am a firm believer that Vitamin C plays a major role in a lot of things, I actually believe we should have a lot more than what is recommended for us. I typically find myself mega dosing Vitamin C, D, etc. etc. I believe a lot more issues in life could be healed if we all just took our Vitamins, eat healthier, etc.  Anyway I will have to study this Inuit Paradox stuff... I am intrigued now. 

[hozz1235]

Some history on Scurvy and "Limeys":  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limey

[ThePancakeLady]

35 minutes ago, hozz1235 said:

Some history on Scurvy and "Limeys":  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limey

Nice! I always wondered where that term originated from, and why. And who knew that limes did not have enough Vitamin C. 

* 1 more bit of info for the Jeopardy game I will never be in, lol*

[VolkZayets]

Thanks Kristaok. As you’ve requested further thoughts and details in a mature way, which was the dialogue I was initially seeking, I’m happy to provide more info to back my suggestion, courtesy for the most part of my wife (a dietician) supplemented by some online research of my own.

You and others seem aware of this, but for the benefit of any other readers, Vitamin C (Ascorbic Acid) deficiency is marked by a condition referred to as scurvy. This includes anemia, fatigue, depression, reduced iron absorption, bleeding gums, bruising, poor wound healing, all of which would sap one’s condition in this in-game situation.

There is only one current in-game source that would theoretically provide a bit of vitamin C: rose hips. I calculate based on approx in game fresh weight of rose hips (gathered at or near sea level) is that one cup of rose hip tea (prepared from approx 250 g of prepared) should contain approx 450 mg of vitamin C. The RDA for Ascorbic Acid for an adult male is 90mg/day, which means you become deficient and experience these conditions within 5 in-game days without drinking 1 cup of rosehip tea (given rosehip scarcity I don’t think this is tenable in the long term). Factors I think would result from deficiency in TLD would be increased fatigue, reduced carrying capacity, more blood loss/more bandage use for wounds. There is some higher range of Vit C concentration dep on varieties, but I went with 450 mg. IRL although higher altitude rose hips tend to have a higher ascorbic acid concentration, given proximity to the ocean coast, I assumed the low end of dosage. And since rose hips do not intentionally respawn IG, and they are the only natural source of pain relief, ultimately a second more reliable long term source of ascorbic acid is necessary to preserve immersiveness. Hence, my suggestion of harvestable pine needles for tea(no shortage of trees here), which from my hazy recollection of grade 6 social studies informed me was an indigenous solution to provide vitamin C, shared with the European colonists in early North America. But that's all I know about it.  

Generally, the inability to manage IG condition as a result of growing nutritional deficiencies is I think one of the very few minor hiccups in an otherwise very realistic game. This game assumes one to be a full-on carnivore, whereas humans are omnivores and actually primarily vegetable eaters, supplemented by meat, rather than vice versa. Some may argue there are cultures who’ve evolved to endure a more heavily animal-based diet with few veg (ie Inuit/Yupik/Eskimo). Typical RDAs (Recommended Dietary Allowance, per day) are scientifically determined for European descendants, which I assume is our TLD character. This does not discount the possibility that some indigenous groups have adaptive traits designed by their traditional diet, and perhaps a reduced need for AA, that may result in a different set of RDAs for them. To support that theory, some other research may also actually show other physical adaptations in these ethnic groups to manage (ie naturally larger livers to handle the increased protein of a meat heavy diet). But again that's not the case here; therefore one could postulate that for this character, a diet consisting entirely of meat for longer than, say, beyond 50 days (which is a number I readily admit is just a guess, but anyone who's been on the BBQ for a 3 day camping weekend and just felt like crap on Tuesday will attest) and not be virtually bedridden may be untenable. Some suggest the white, Caucasian or European liver would begin to fail due simply to protein poisoning by eating this much meat, particularly without vitamin C to increase absorption. The simplest solution would of course be introducing discoverable multivitamins in every house cabinet and first aid kit, but that to me would be a cop-out for gamedev, particularly since science also shows the human body does not absorb manufactured vitamins as well as it does for natural sources. There should be natural long term sources of necessary vitamins and minerals. To me the point is how to live on the land, not scrounge garbage.  

There are of course many nutrient deficiency-related conditions that could be introduced besides vitamin C to increase difficulty. Some vits & mins can be covered by organ meat consumption (which can be assumed but is not explicit in meat consumption in TLD), but for others there are simply no alternatives but to consume via plants, with corresponding deficiencies that would be equally disastrous to one’s health. I think the low hanging fruit (PTP!) here is Vitamin A (deficiency causes night blindness, dry skin, chest and throat infections; btw, how does one live on Great Bear and not get the occasional cold or flu?) and potassium (hypokalemia causes weakness, fatigue, digestive problems, breathing difficulties, and mood changes). As another aside, since the condition Vitamin C impacts wound healing, new relevant wishlist oppties (worthy of separate threads, which I will not be starting, TYVM) that could also be explored related to this subject include cuts/wounds/tetanus not resulting from animal attacks (accidental cut by axe or knife, puncture wounds, step on a nail or rusted metal, even a hangnail can cause infection).

Ergo, scurvy, and pine needle tea is my wishlist case for consideration. Apologies for length of this post, but in terms of effective communication, I do not believe in initially not providing more info than necessary, and leave the door open for questions (if needed) and positive discussion and debate. That’s all the info I have to provide so if a dev is seeking further info on the topic, google can likely inform better than I. Regardless I won't be responding further. I created an account  to post on this forum some ideas worthy of adult discourse, but my experience upon arrival is to have my only two threads immediately pounced upon and derailed by a self appointed forum policetroll. It is not fun to be talked down to so rudely with such tone, and I now have no further interest in participating here. Best of luck to the rest of you nice ppl. and enjoy TLD, as will I continue to. If the forum community, as this individual mentioned, is now running out of discussions, perhaps the how ideas are responded to and new posters are treated may be considered as a reason why. Everyone else here seems nice, but as the old adage goes, it only takes one bad apple to spoil a barrel.

PS Kristaok I also like the rabbit starvation idea. Just too simple to just camp out with a dozen traps, trap and subsist; there needs to be risk. Good luck with promoting it!

[ThePancakeLady]

I would love to read that all ^^, but have to highlight it all to do so. Black text on a dark grey background... not so good for some of us older folks with failing eyesight. And highlighting is painful to my old eyes as well. So, being  honest here- I only read parts of the response above.

 

I do like the idea of Pine Needle tea, only problem is... we have Cedar and Fir, no pine. But White Cedar Tea is full of Vitamin C, once you pour off the toxic cedar oil that floats  to the top. If we have White Cedar... arborvitae. If we have true cedar or Red Cedar, I am not sure if a tea from those needles is safe or not, or of any benefit. Pine would be perfect... if we had pine. Not all trees with needles are Pine. They are all conifers, of the family Pinacea, but each belongs to a different genus in that plant family. Lots of research to determine what particular trees we may have, on a fictitious island, that we don;t know the exact location of, and so many different coniferous trees that are actually toxic of made into tea, or the needles eaten by humans or animals. 

 

Again, i like the idea, I have had pine needle tea many times IRL, but knew it was a safe variety of pine needle to use. No clue if I, as a survivor on great bear, would heal myself, or kill myself brewing teas from unknown plants needles. 

[ajb1978]

21 hours ago, kristaok said:

I always wondered how some places do it; eat less Fruit and Veggies without getting Scurvy... 

There's a lot of factors that enter into play, particularly where organic chemistry is concerned.  But the "in a nutshell" version is if you're eating basically all meat and no carbs, you don't need anywhere near as much vitamin C to survive.  You can get all or nearly all the vitamin C you need from eating the liver.  Once you start eating carbs, then yeah you need to up your vitamin C intake.  But it's never as simple as "You need X many mg of vitamin C every day."  It's relative, depending on what else is in your diet.

[UTC-10]

While the human population does not manufacture ascorbic acid (vitamin C) in any quantity, that does not mean that a significant percentage do not produce some vitamin C, enough to prevent scurvy. It has been described, I think, as an uncatalyzed reaction (the required enzyme is not functional) from the substrate so it is very slow, but happens. The amount produced can be described as comparatively infinitesimal compared to a properly catalyzed reaction (given a goat can produce 13,000 mg of vitamin C then a human producing 15 mg or 1/1,000 of what a goat could produce would rightly be considered to comparatively not making any).  It probably is not always enough, but may enough most of the time.

It is also true that the remaining population has other enzyme defects that prevent any vitamin C from being produced since the substrate does not get produced at all. 

Depending on which population you're talking about, the inability to make any vitamin C or have alternate sources would cull those who can't out of the population. I understand that the Bedouin population as desert travelers had nobody who couldn't make some vitamin C because of where they were and how they lived.

It was pointed out that on long ocean voyages, a large percentage would get scurvy but not everybody. This is not to say that one should ignore getting vitamin C from various sources when available. 

[Mroz4k]

Even if I already apologized, I will apologize again - I am sorry for the post I originally made here, it was quite rude. In all honesty, the "drops mic" did not help the issue much, either. Still, I should have known better. The truth is, I have been rather cold to everyone of the forums for the past 3-4 days, not you specifically. This is something I have only realized yesterday during a self-reflection. The reason for that being my issues with a different forum member, whom I got into it earlier, and later when I tried to make peace, I was cussed out, and that same person has been harassing me ever since via reports and various remarks. But, none of that gives me the right to behave the same way to others. I am trully sorry for my part in making you feel unwelcomed. I hope you can understand - because the way I treated you was similar to this, and it inspired you to leave the forums, you can probably imagine how I feel, yet I have deep roots here on the forums so leaving is not really an option I want to consider.

It makes me sad that this is how you feel, especially because I truly believe what I said before:

On 4/24/2019 at 10:46 PM, Mroz4k said:

I am not trying to disrespect you, just trying to be honest with you - because you have pretty good ideas, but you don't put enough effort into them

You have good ideas, and I think the forums could benefit from your additions, but you need to work on them more. And dont expect that everyone will agree with your ideas, or praise you for making them. In fact, its pretty common to run into more people that are going to disagree with you then agree - it is important to remember that it is not meant maliciously.  Most people would disagree with each other intially, and through discussion here and consideration of views of everyone involved in the conversation, a better idea can be formulated.

If the topic of this thread was to discuss Scurvy, and not suggest it as a mechanic into the game, Id suggest that we have this thread moved to General discussion. With Wishlist, it should be a suggestion of something that we want for the game, which needs these things: the name of the suggested idea, specifics of how this idea will work within the game, all the other information like in-game weight for suggested items, crafting recipes and the time it takes to craft them, etc. and finally, explanation why should this be added into the game.

Now, to touch down to the discussion:

15 hours ago, VolkZayets said:

would be increased fatigue, reduced carrying capacity, more blood loss/more bandage use for wounds.

This is exactly what I wanted in the first topic - but you can still be a bit more detailed. Also, TLD-wise, increased fatigue would mean "more energy" - I think you meant the reverse, less energy. Just want to point that out in case someone was confused by that.
Maybe, it would be better to say increased Fatigue loss - my question to you - by how many % would you increase the loss of Fatigue in the game as a result of Scurvy?
By how much would the carry capacity be reduced? 
How would you mimic the "more blood loss" in the game? 

I agree these would be pretty decent effects of the affliction. In my opinion, some 15% increase in fatigue loss would be viable for the game, the carry capacity would be cut down by 5kg, and as for the last effect - I think the "chance of contracting blood loss" during animal struggles would be increased by 30%. These are all very terrifying detriments for most long-term players.

Now, the real question - how would the scurvy be contracted? You already spoke on the matter but it is very difficult to determine from your text what you mean as a game mechanic, and what is the explanation around it. How can it be cured? How long would this process take?

(now, for some points in this discussion)

I am not going to claim to be an expert on the matter, but as a ski instructor and as someone who studied pharmacy at a university before I decided to change profession, I do know a bit about vitamins, vitamin deficiency and about diets. I disagree with the notion that a mostly carnivorous diet in TLD would necessarily cause vitamin deficiency. People have survived in these conditions for thousands of years - and now I am not talking just about natives, who are probably more accustomed to the diet there, but also about other people - settlers and homesteaders, or trappers who would consume mostly meats due to their profession and relative distance from society. In fact, in conditions such as TLD, you need to have a mostly carnivorous diet, because in such harsh conditions, you lose calories in an alarming rate, and your daily caloric consumption has to supply you with enough energy to make up for what was lost. Therefore, fats are necessary part of the diet to survive long-term. However, the diet would have to be balanced. Different kinds of meats, then some fish, on occasion you would throw in the mushrooms & cattails & rose hips that we already have in the game - I believe it would be very reasonable to balance out such variety so that the survivor would not suffer from vitamin deficiency of any kind.

Which touches down on a bit different topic - that would be a suggestion to encourage players to "eat variety" - because right now, most players will consume a specific kind of meat the most, depending on their playstyle. Be it Venison from deer, or rabbits, or steaks from bears... over-consuming a single type of meat would certainly lead to vitamin and mineral issues. Yet, most people play the game by stockpiling, and so it makes sense for them to consume only one, or two types of meat almost exclusively.

Eating bear & moose meat, rich in fats, would be a great source of certain vitamins that are disolutable in fats - such as Vit A or Vitamins B. It would be found in significant amount in fat, and although most of them would be destroyed via digestion, some is going to be absorbed through meat consumption. This is the difference between omnivores and carnivores, carnivores are better equipped to absorb the vitamins out of the meat during digestion.

Livers in other animals, especially in herbivores, and some other organs for herbivores, would also contain high traces of water-disolutable vitamins, minerals, and fat disolvable vitamins. It is, after all, one of the highly nutrient-dense foods out there.

Fish and fish oil are by far one of the best sources of fat disolvable vitamins, such as A, Bs and even Vitamin E, as well as various minerals. No wonder fish oil is sold as supplement.

Rabbit are rich in protein and lean on fat, but also very rich in minerals and vitamins, because they are herbivores. They also re-digest their own feces, which is a bit different than other herbivores (who pre-chow their food, and digest it several times), this helps them recover a high amount of vitamins and minerals from grasses. While continuous consumption or rabbit would lead to protein poisoning, it is through their consumption a mostly carnivorous player could replenish a lot of vitamins in small amounts.

Generally, herbivore meat is more likely to have higher amounts of vitamins and minerals due to their diet. Problem is that in comparison to sole carnivores, people would have more trouble, digesting these vitamins and absorb them from the meats. Still, as a general "all purpose" meats, herbivores are the closest. Yet, continuous consumption of solely herbivore meat (even if it was from a moose, with more fats) would only decrease the on-set of long-term vitamin deficiency issues, not stop them.

Of all the vitamins I can think of, the C is probably in the shortest of supplies (maybe along with E, which is generally found in nuts and oils from nuts, but could be sufficiently found in fish) - so I would be very happy with having a tea, made of conifer needles, be an option for the game. I would, however, suggest fir needles instead. As Lady said, many pine trees can be toxic (well, the truth is, many of these toxins are not going to be a problem for people, unless perhaps consumed in large quantities, which could invoke stomach issues, nausea and vomitting, but should not be life threathening, unless it was yew trees and similarly, highly toxic trees), fir needles are fairly easy-to-distinguish, and even after doing extensive research, I did not find any evidence of fir tree toxins that would be contained in needles and dangerous to a person that consumes them. I drink fir tea on hikes on occasion, it is bitter but refreshing. There are types of other conifer trees that are poisonous, even to people, like yew trees. Since those could be mistaken for pine trees, I wouldn't try to brew pine needle tea.

Since our survivor can distinguish cedar and fir wood, Id say it is safe to assume the survivor has some knowledge of local fauna, and can determine which conifer tree is which, so I would rather suggest fir needles as a basis for a Vitamin C rich, bitter tea. That still brings us to the question - how would you propose these conifer needles are harvested in the game?

I think there is a lot of potential here, and Scurvy, Protein poisoning and even other "long-term" afflictions would be an excellent addition to the game, as well as some sort of "conifer needle tea", and perhaps other kinds of food items that can be used to make the diet more varied. This could force the players into eating a lot more variable diet rather then just slugging down bear steaks, one after another, because all they do is hunt bears in the game. In a similar way the game forces the player to hunt different animals to make different clothing, this would nudge the player to take different kinds of meats from their hunts, and have a need to fish, and maybe even forage in the woods for some plants to introduce into their diet.
 

Edited April 26, 2019 by Mroz4k

[Admin]

Please post about the topic at hand and not about how you or anyone else should be posting.