Rabbit Starvation / Protein Poisoning

[Guest kristaok]

Would this be a good idea or? We already have Food Poisoning from eating bad stuff too often, and Parasites from eating Carnivores, so why not Rabbit Starvation from eating too many Rabbits?  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_poisoning

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_McCandless

Some believe that may have been the cause or have contributed to Chris McCandles death. 

[Willy Pete]

Neat story, if morbid. In any case, rabbits make up a small portion of my in-game diet so I could go either way with it. Problem is, how do you cure it?

[Guest kristaok]

41 minutes ago, Willy Pete said:

Neat story, if morbid. In any case, rabbits make up a small portion of my in-game diet so I could go either way with it. Problem is, how do you cure it?

https://rangetoreel.com/rabbit-starvation-and-rethinking-your-wilderness-survival-plan/

You cure it by adding Fat along with other Foods. 

Rabbit Starvation is caused by eating nothing but Rabbit Meat which is VERY lean and has little to no Fat, so you are getting nothing but Protein basically, so you will eventually be poisoned by the excess Protein. 

In the Article it states that ingesting Rabbit Meat takes out more Vitamins to digest it then you get back from eating it, so basically it's better for that individual to starve aka eat nothing at all than to just eat Rabbits. It's really a vicious cycle because people when they starve are going to naturally eat more Rabbits not realizing what they are doing to themselves, they are basically speeding up their demise. 

I have studied Rabbit Starvation a LOT! I was REALLY big into Chris Mccandles' Story, it's quite sad really... So I think that naturally this should be implemented into the Game because even though it's not well known it is very much so a danger to those who live in the wild and feat on Rabbits to survive. 

Rabbit Starvation was a HUGE reason poor Mccandles met his demise, it would have caused him to use the bathroom so to speak which would leach out any bit of water and nutrients he did have, which I doubt he had much because again digesting Rabbit Meat would take out more Vitamins than it gives. He would have also suffered with stomach aches, headaches, low blood pressure, nausea, weakness, mood changes, slow heart rate, and more. It wouldn't have been an easy experience for him, or anyone else who has suffered through Rabbit Starvation. 

But back to why I think this could work in TLD; because it's a VERY REAL issue and we have places like the Trappers Homestead which is abundant in Rabbits so there's probably a LOT of players who make up their diet with Rabbits, so it would be a good thing to challenge this which would in turn make the game more difficult / more balanced. And also we already have the Affliction to get Food Poisoning along with Parasites, so I think over all it would all match and go together. 

Lastly it doesn't make sense for a player to just be able to endlessly feast on Rabbits without any repercussions, when in real life this would be a VERY BIG mistake for that individual. 

Ps. This is coming from someone who hunts LOTS of Rabbits in the Game.

Edited April 18, 2019 by kristaok

[Willy Pete]

@kristaok No, I mean how would you cure it in game? How would it work in game? Eat X amount of calories from rabbit meat without eating anything else? Once inflicted, what would it do? Act like anything else and decrease condition? (Making water drain faster would be a cool touch). Ultimately, what would cure it? Consuming X amount of calories from non-rabbit sources?

I don't know much about coding, but it doesn't sound super simple. Parasites and food poisoning are easy as percentage values combined with food items. Maybe you could have a calorie counter (not visible to the player, of course) for counting calories towards rabbit starvation and then another counter for non-rabbit calories away from it once you get it. I dunno, still a neat idea but I don't know how easily it could be implemented.

[Guest kristaok]

It would be caused by eating so many Rabbits, implement it by adding a counter. Each Rabbit consumed would cause it to add a percent or so chance to get protein poisoning. It could be cured like the parasite affliction, avoid eating Rabbits for a day or something. There's got to be a way it could be implemented. 

As for symptoms it could make the person more tired, make them hungrier, and thirstier. 

[deathbydanish]

5 hours ago, kristaok said:

It would be caused by eating so many Rabbits, implement it by adding a counter. Each Rabbit consumed would cause it to add a percent or so chance to get protein poisoning. It could be cured like the parasite affliction, avoid eating Rabbits for a day or something. There's got to be a way it could be implemented. 

As for symptoms it could make the person more tired, make them hungrier, and thirstier. 

Right off the bat the fattiest thing I have in my kitchen is peanut butter according the  label (YMMV) it provides 16g of fat to which it states that's 24% of your daily value. Since peanut butter is already in the game there's that, condensed milk is even higher at 27g and is considered 41% of your daily value for fat.

[Guest kristaok]

3 minutes ago, deathbydanish said:

Right off the bat the fattiest thing I have in my kitchen is peanut butter according the  label (YMMV) it provides 16g of fat to which it states that's 24% of your daily value. Since peanut butter is already in the game there's that, condensed milk is even higher at 27g and is considered 41% of your daily value for fat.

Yes eating Fats could help stop / prevent Rabbit Starvation in real life, but in the game Peanut Butter is kind of rare. This is why I said there could be a counter where eating Rabbits it makes it 1 percent or so of a chance to get Protein Poisoning each time a Rabbit is consumed. They could also implement (if they can) the ability to reset the counter or cure Rabbit Starvation when you eat anything else other than Rabbits.

[TerribleSurvivor]

A possible implementation could look like the following:

Compressed Version of my idea:

• Nutriments are divided into fat-rich and lean (binary distinction)
  • The nutriments get an extra label ("fat-rich" or "lean") in their characteristics table (where condition and calories are shown)
• A hidden(!) "Fat-Counter" keeps track of your "fat-calories ratio"
• The "fat-calories ratio" considers all nutriments consumed in the last 168 hours (seven days) you weren't(!) starving
  • Example: If you ate 50% fat-rich and 50% lean nutriments in the last 168 hours you would a have 50% "fat-calories ratio"
• If your "Fat-Counter" drops below 25% you start getting a risk of contracting "Protein Poisoning"
  • Also, your character starts complaining: "I want Fat so badly right now" or something similar.
• If you contract "Protein Poisoning", your calories start diminishing at a way higher speed (2x or even 3x as fast)
• To cure "Protein Poisoning" you need to get your fat counter high up again (50-60%)
• "Protein Poisoning" is an affliction that needs to be cured in a matter of days or even weeks. You can't treat it immediately!

Long Version:

Hinterland could add a hidden "Fat-Counter" and distinguish between fat-rich and lean nutriments (binary distinction). That way, if your diet mainly consists of lean nutriments your "Fat-Counter" would start dropping. The current state of the fat-counter would be determined by a "fat-calories ratio". So, if 50% of your calories were coming from fat-rich nutriments, your "Fat-Counter" would be at 50% respectively. It would always get updated when eating something. The "fat-calories ratio" would only consider nutriments you consumed in the last few (maybe 7?) days in your run. It also only counts the time where you weren't starving (effectively the last 168 ingame hours you were fed). That way, if you kept your fat intake low over too much time your "Fat-Counter" would start dropping. Basically, if you consumed rabbit meat only in the last 7 days (plus the time where you were starving) in my example, you would have fat-calories ratio of 0%. If you consumed 50% rabbit meat and 50% other meat (lets say Moose) you would be fine with 50% on your "Fat-Counter".

At a certain point, lets say 25% "fat-calories ratio" you should start getting a risk of contracting "Protein Poisoning" that grows if this ratio keeps dropping towards 0% and decreases if the ratio increases towards the 25% threshold. Every now and then in a given time interval (lets say 2 ingame hours?) the chance of getting the affliction is checked and if it is positive you get the actual affliction "Protein Poisoning". Keep in mind that the "Fat-Counter" is hidden so you can´t effectively optimize your fat intake by just looking at it. Also, the chance shouldn't increase in a linear fashion but rather like the chance of getting food poisoning which grows exponentially afaik. You could even randomize it a little bit to make it more erratic.So what if you actually contract "Protein Poisoning".

The affliction itself should cause your calories to rapidly diminish (twice or even three times as fast). To cure it you need to drastically increase your fat intake with fat-rich nutriments. It should get cured if your fat counter reaches something like 50-60%. Keep in mind that because the fat-calories ratio accounts for all nutriments eaten in the last 7 days (plus the time you were starving) you will need to eat at fat rich nutriments for at least half a week to get to the 50% mark and that could indeed be quite a challenge! It wouldn't be an affliction that is cured by just applying some magical treatment to it but would consume a considerable amount of time similar to broken rips or intestinal parasites. On the other hand, you shouldn't get this affliction very frequently if you mind the treat the risk of "Protein Poisoning" with proper respect.

If you made it to this point, be proud of yourself. You just read through a whole lot of theory that simply emerged in my mind. I hope i was as clear as possible regarding my idea. If you didn't understand it you can try to read it again later maybe you will understand it then. I also want to stress that this is by no means an implementation-ready concept. It is JUST a concept with some fictional parameters to make it better understandable!

Anyways, thanks for reading this long post and have a nice day whether you like my concept or not

Sincerely

P.S.: Don't hesitate to ask questions if you aren't sure. Feel free to do it in this thread or via PM!

Edited May 8, 2019 by TerribleSurvivor
Readability

[deathbydanish]

On 5/7/2019 at 8:46 PM, kristaok said:

Yes eating Fats could help stop / prevent Rabbit Starvation in real life, but in the game Peanut Butter is kind of rare. This is why I said there could be a counter where eating Rabbits it makes it 1 percent or so of a chance to get Protein Poisoning each time a Rabbit is consumed. They could also implement (if they can) the ability to reset the counter or cure Rabbit Starvation when you eat anything else other than Rabbits.

Fair enough, the other source could be from fish. Salmon for example, particularly big ones could probably throw enough fat into the mix to counter the protein poisoning.

Edited May 10, 2019 by deathbydanish

[Guest kristaok]

Thank you all for offering ideas  

[GothSkunk]

Way back when, I proposed something similar on the Steam forums: Cravings and Revulsion.

 

First, cravings.

The player can develop cravings for the meat found in the game. Bear, Moose, Venison, Wolf, Rabbit, Fish*. The cravings would occur once a week, and only include meat that has already been eaten once (A player who has not yet eaten Bear or Moose will not got a craving for Bear or Moose).

The craving would appear as an affliction risk, and would remain until fulfilled. Eating any other kind of meat would yield only 50% of its caloric value.

* = In this instance, the player could develop a craving for a specific kind of fish, not just fish in general.

 

Second, revulsion.

The opposite of craving. Eating too much of one kind of meat in a 48 hour period will cause the player to develop a revulsion towards it. "You are getting sick of Bear/Moose/Venison/Wolf/Rabbit/Fish**."

Like cravings, this too would show up as an affliction risk, and would be cleared by consuming calories from any food source OTHER than the one they're afflicted by.

Continuing to eat the meat you're repulsed by would eventually turn the affliction risk into a full on affliction, and the player character would utterly refuse to eat any more of that meat type for 24 hours. Or, alternatively, they could continue eating said meat, but an hour later, would vomit up the contents of their stomach, immediately bringing their calorie store and thirst level to zero.

 

** = Critical caveat. The player would develop a revulsion to ALL fish, rather than a specific type, if too much fish was consumed in 48 hours.

Edited May 10, 2019 by GothSkunk

[Guest kristaok]

Cravings and Revulsion is vastly different compared to Protein Poisoning though  , and in a setting like this where you have to eat to Survive you're gonna wanna eat what you can get, so I don't think this Mechanic would really work or be realistic.  But on the other hand Protein Poisoning aka Rabbit Starvation is very realistic, it's what the late Chris McCandles suffered and more than likely died from, it's caused by eating too many Rabbits and nothing else to counter the excess Protein. 

Edited May 10, 2019 by kristaok

[deathbydanish]

1 hour ago, kristaok said:

Cravings and Revulsion is vastly different compared to Protein Poisoning though  , and in a setting like this where you have to eat to Survive you're gonna wanna eat what you can get, so I don't think this Mechanic would really work or be realistic.  But on the other hand Protein Poisoning aka Rabbit Starvation is very realistic, it's what the late Chris McCandles suffered and more than likely died from, it's caused by eating too many Rabbits and nothing else to counter the excess Protein. 

This, at least on all the TV shows (like Man vs. Wild and Survivorman) they do make it a point to talk about protein poisoning as a legitimate concern. IMO it makes sense, if you are in a life or death situation your body is probably gonna utilize everything you give it, fat included. If all you really did was hike through snow, chop up wood, hunt and quarter deer, etc then I can imagine that already would put a drain on your body's fat stores. Putting it in a state of imbalance seems like it would be really easy to do if your priorities are to stay alive.

FYI in Survivorman the host did mention one way to help lessen the effects of protein poisoning is to eat the bone marrow since there is fat in there. Most people would just discard them, but the bones do have fat in them.

[Grignard_TN]

35 minutes ago, deathbydanish said:

This, at least on all the TV shows (like Man vs. Wild and Survivorman) they do make it a point to talk about protein poisoning as a legitimate concern. IMO it makes sense, if you are in a life or death situation your body is probably gonna utilize everything you give it, fat included. If all you really did was hike through snow, chop up wood, hunt and quarter deer, etc then I can imagine that already would put a drain on your body's fat stores. Putting it in a state of imbalance seems like it would be really easy to do if your priorities are to stay alive.

FYI in Survivorman the host did mention one way to help lessen the effects of protein poisoning is to eat the bone marrow since there is fat in there. Most people would just discard them, but the bones do have fat in them.

You're going to have to eat that rabbit brain if you want to keep going for the long haul.

[Guest kristaok]

1 hour ago, deathbydanish said:

This, at least on all the TV shows (like Man vs. Wild and Survivorman) they do make it a point to talk about protein poisoning as a legitimate concern. IMO it makes sense, if you are in a life or death situation your body is probably gonna utilize everything you give it, fat included. If all you really did was hike through snow, chop up wood, hunt and quarter deer, etc then I can imagine that already would put a drain on your body's fat stores. Putting it in a state of imbalance seems like it would be really easy to do if your priorities are to stay alive.

FYI in Survivorman the host did mention one way to help lessen the effects of protein poisoning is to eat the bone marrow since there is fat in there. Most people would just discard them, but the bones do have fat in them.

I know eating Bone Marrow Soup is also good for our Bones, so I heard anyway.

[deathbydanish]

52 minutes ago, Grignard_TN said:

You're going to have to eat that rabbit brain if you want to keep going for the long haul.

In a do or die situation, nothing should go to waste, I think maybe for the game it should be implied, but if some of you want to make it more explicit perhaps it can be its own request 😛

27 minutes ago, kristaok said:

I know eating Bone Marrow Soup is also good for our Bones, so I heard anyway.

Its a good thing we're not in a survival scenario then eh? Has someone requested maybe a bone marrow soup in the game?

[Guest kristaok]

14 minutes ago, deathbydanish said:

In a do or die situation, nothing should go to waste, I think maybe for the game it should be implied, but if some of you want to make it more explicit perhaps it can be its own request 😛

Its a good thing we're not in a survival scenario then eh? Has someone requested maybe a bone marrow soup in the game?

They have requested Soup in general like what you get from Grey Mothers if I can recall correctly.  

Edited May 10, 2019 by kristaok