TeflonGoon

Animal Traps (bear, wolf, etc.)

15 posts in this topic

I did a search and found there's been some discussion about animal traps, but they're buried in general posts (with titles like "Some Ideas"), so I figured I'd give the topic its own post.

There was some conversation about traps being too anachronistic or that they will offend people.

Firstly, people still trap. There are between 60-80,000 active (and licensed) trappers in Canada, trapping beavers, foxes, wolves and numerous other animals. Including bears. Bear trapping exists and is legal in some provinces/territories. So, I think it's highly unlikely to NOT find animal traps lying around in a place like Great Bear Island.

Second, whoever is offended by traps is likely going to disapprove of the rabbit snares already in the game. Snares are traps. Rabbits are animals. (They're bunnies!)

The traps could also require components (ex: spring, trigger, etc.) that we can either find or craft from scrap metal. The components will degrade while the main body of the trap (plate, jaws, etc.) does not. 

 

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Hello. I hear you, and I think you are right, this topic does deserve its own thread. I will be the first to defend the use of traps against the argument "traps are inhumane" and such comments, because frankly, survival is not pretty, its not really meant to be clean. Surely we want to avoid animal suffering, but most people hunt animals within the game by letting them bleed out... which technically means the prey suffers for hours before it succumbs to injuries. 

If anything, traps would be more human this way, because a trapped, immobile animal can be put down more easily, without having it suffer. Just like with most things survival related, there are two sides of the same coin... real life trapping is depicted as brutal because in most cases, its hunting for commercial use, not for life-or-death situations. A commercial trapper will lay out tons of traps, and might not even come back for some, leaving them there triggered, or sometimes leaving animals caught there to suffer a slow death. A trapper who hunts for food will definitedly check all his traps, because his life depends on the meat he gets - which means no animals would be there for days to die a slow, painful, brutal death. Also, the game literally has several references to trappers, the most notably the Trapper´s cabin which is the monument of the game since its alpha days.

Yet, despite all that, I am not in favour of adding the traps, for a simple reason. If traps were used to hunt big animals, it would make hunting significantly easier. And the hunting ought to get harder, not easier, to provide the proper challenge one expects from such a high-end survival game. A lot of things that you would expect in real life did not make it into the game for this very reason.

But, I am willing to change my opinion on this, assuming we as a community can figure out the logistics of how would these traps work, how rare they would be and how to balance it in with the already existing game contents to make them viable.

You made a solid argument for why traps should be in the game, maybe let us know what you think about how they would work, how one can obtain them, et cetera :) 

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Posted (edited)

I have a few ideas off the top of my head. Didn't put a lot of thought into this, it's just what first came to mind when I thought about how it might work.

1. They have to be crafted. Out of what and how hard they are can be debated.

2. Setting the trap should take time, during which the animal can find and possibly kill you. For something like bear you would have to anchor it to something or bury it. Digging in frozen ground is near impossible and time-consuming.

4 Unlike snares which, I think, seem to be kind of RNG-based, we would have to put the trap directly in an animals path.  They would literally need to step in it. If the animal turns or otherwise misses the trap there is, of course, no catch.

4. The animal needs a chance to pull the trap loose. If it gets loose while you are near, watch out, a wounded animal is more dangerous.

Edited by Hilayla
Grammer mistakes.
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Well come to the forums @Hilayla those were some pretty good ideas you had there:)

Just one thing I don't agree with:the craftabilty of the traps:what would be better is that the trap would be a rare loot able item tucked away in some far flung place so that you need to mount an expedition to go there.

The only bad thing with this is that it goes against the lore aspect of finding traps at trapper's or the poachers camp.  

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Good point @Mroz4k. I definitely don't want traps to make hunting easier. 

Perhaps traps could have two components (ex: the trap and the chain), so you would need both. Sometimes you're lucky and find a complete trap.

Setting a bear trap should be dangerous, especially to a novice. (For this, trapping could be added as a new skill.)  Setting a bear trap would have x% change of slamming shut on your fingers, hand, etc. Time to bandage (blood loss) should be faster than that suffered during an animal attack. As you set more traps and trap successfully, your skill grows and risk reduces. But there's always a risk. Maybe you could even lose a finger. (New game mechanic: Permanent Afflictions.)

Approaching and killing the trapped animal could be another element to trapping. That is, you never come across a completely dead bear or wolf in your trap. You still need to kill it. If you decide to save a bullet and use your knife, perhaps that could be an encounter using a new game mechanic, like spearing the bear in Wintermute (but not like spearing the bear in Wintermute).

@Hilayla has a good idea about setting a trap should take time. 

So while trapping may seem like passive way to hunt (like snares), every aspect of it has an element of risk.

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8 hours ago, Mroz4k said:

Hello. I hear you, and I think you are right, this topic does deserve its own thread. I will be the first to defend the use of traps against the argument "traps are inhumane" and such comments, because frankly, survival is not pretty, its not really meant to be clean. Surely we want to avoid animal suffering, but most people hunt animals within the game by letting them bleed out... which technically means the prey suffers for hours before it succumbs to injuries. 

If anything, traps would be more human this way, because a trapped, immobile animal can be put down more easily, without having it suffer. Just like with most things survival related, there are two sides of the same coin... real life trapping is depicted as brutal because in most cases, its hunting for commercial use, not for life-or-death situations. A commercial trapper will lay out tons of traps, and might not even come back for some, leaving them there triggered, or sometimes leaving animals caught there to suffer a slow death. A trapper who hunts for food will definitedly check all his traps, because his life depends on the meat he gets - which means no animals would be there for days to die a slow, painful, brutal death. Also, the game literally has several references to trappers, the most notably the Trapper´s cabin which is the monument of the game since its alpha days.

Yet, despite all that, I am not in favour of adding the traps, for a simple reason. If traps were used to hunt big animals, it would make hunting significantly easier. And the hunting ought to get harder, not easier, to provide the proper challenge one expects from such a high-end survival game. A lot of things that you would expect in real life did not make it into the game for this very reason.

But, I am willing to change my opinion on this, assuming we as a community can figure out the logistics of how would these traps work, how rare they would be and how to balance it in with the already existing game contents to make them viable.

You made a solid argument for why traps should be in the game, maybe let us know what you think about how they would work, how one can obtain them, et cetera :) 

I too am not in favor of adding traps in the fear that it would make hunting easier.  That said, I think adding a single bear trap into the game in a location that is inherently difficult to reach might be an interesting addition to a special challenge (e.g. like another part to The Hunted).  It could then also be an item that spawns in that single location in survival mode (perhaps not in interloper though).  Part traps or broken ones could spawn elsewhere and require the collection of the different pieces from multiple locations before a completed working trap could be crafted.  The weight of the parts could also be somewhat onerous so that it would take some deliberate planning to get the various parts to a single and appropriate location to be crafted and then used.

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Posted (edited)

To defend the point of view that traps are too controversial to be added to the game - which was originally my stance in the post you mentioned - I'm not saying that I personally am thinking that the addition of traps would be either wrong in a "humane" sense or that, if thrown into a survival scenario, people wouldn't turn to much much worse things than traps. I personally am not a fan of trapping in the real world, but as such I am not a fan of eating meat in the real world (for various reasons), period, but still I am a happy camper when I get to chew on a moose for two weeks in game. Because that's what it is: a game. I also do not condone the assisination of morachs - but still enjoy the occasional game of chess.

The point people playing this game do get is that TLD depicts a purely fictional end-time setting where the only rule is to stay alive, really no matter the means taken to achieve this, and that in a real survival setting pretty much any sane human being would resort to such a mindset rather quickly. I do get that, we do get that, and I do get that just because I am self aware enough to realize the things I would resort to if I had to I am not that person right now or ever likely to become - simply because I am sitting in my warm house in front of a PC and, really, have nothing essential to wish for - as does most of western civilisation. Again: we do get that. That doesn't mean that other people do get it.

And there's a growing community of people out there that just wait for such things to be offended. And once they found an ever-so-slight reason to be offended they voice it a thousand times over, against reason, against measure, against common sense - and they don't stop shouting until you are gone and buried. Just think of #StopOnlineAnimalTorture or some nonsensical moose crap hashtag riding on a troll twitter campaign. I can already see it appearing on some clickbait media outlet before my eyes: "Canadian indie studio faces allegations of promoting illegal and inhumane practices among radical, predominantly male (and possibly alt-right) survivalist player base. PETA member and feminist human rights activist Sandy Doesknowbetter explains 10 reasons why you should boykott this."

Now as a private person you maybe can say "so what" and dodge the expired vegetables thrown your way. Fine. As a public entity that relies on reputation and public opinion, however, you cannot. And once you lose public opinion you lose your business foundation, people lose jobs and you go bankrupt. And EVEN IF HL would go and say "effyou SJWs" with the help of community backing .... just think how Valve would have to react to a public uproar of "people" claiming HL condones and promotes the suffering of wildlife. TLD would get taken down from steam, and that's it then, pretty much.  In a world where the mere allegation of something that's a hot topic among SJWs can get you fired, your family torn apart or your business destroyed those are real concerns. 

That's, again, why I believe this will not happen. Do I dramatize this? Probably. It is unrealistic? Cerntainly not. I hate it as much as you do, but it's a part of our nice social media reality that you have to think thrice about anything that could hold mere potential to offend too many or the wrong people.

Edited by jeffpeng
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On 1/9/2019 at 6:18 AM, jeffpeng said:

I hate it as much as you do, but it's a part of our nice social media reality that you have to think thrice about anything that could hold mere potential to offend too many or the wrong people.

I don't disagree that some people will be offended. PETA no doubt already thinks TLD is a training ground for evil. But is the jump from snares to spring traps so huge?

Also, I'd prefer to simply discuss the pros and cons of game mechanics/etc purely based on how they apply in-game, and leave the politics out of it. (I'm not saying they have no effect, for they do. I'm speaking strictly from a forum dialogue standpoint.)

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This is a nice idea. Maybe have the ability to find a couple traps, kind of like how you can find the rifle. Or you can make traps from metal, idk but it needs done. :P

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I think this idea is great. I have raised rabbits for food; I had to drink a beer or three before I'd "off" them (but unlike in-game, I can't just put them out of my line of sight and snap the neck) because I'm still human and I raised them. And dang, they're super cute when they're little.
But really, my thought is twofold on this:

1) You have to attach the trap to something. I'm no trapper, I've only encountered the things in books, movies, and video games, but an unanchored trap would be a great way to send a bear off on a rampage looking for the player. Additionally, would it be a tree? Would we have to somehow anchor something into the ground? Assuming the ground is frozen, could we anchor, or could the area thaw?

2) Depending on the size/caliber of the trap that would be created, there are two possibilities: that it would mangle something smaller than its target beyond usability, and that it would simply peeve something larger than its target, at which point, see point 1. Of course this then requires a weight to be set to trigger the trap... which may complicate things more?

I think the idea is great but will have a lot to consider to implement it.

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@Asinine  There are many options, including stakes, rebar, cable, etc., which could be new materials added to the game. Some of them could even serve more than one purpose (firewood, weapon, ice breaker, etc.). And depending on the prey, a different anchor could be required.

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Traps are a good idea, but the balancing needed to make them useful, but not overpowered requires a few questions to be answered:

1) Only one size of trap? For Deer-wolves-bears-moose? Multiple sizes would complicate the process, so I think that: as long as a rabbit doesn't walk into it ( @Asinine like you said, it would be mangled beyond salvaging), any other animal should be viable for trapping succesfully.

2)Craftable or unique item? I would like the trap to take damage if the animal escapes the trap, or a rabbit walks into it, or a blizzard ruins it before an animal is caught. Therefore, it should be craftable, I believe.

But it should not be easy. It should be, in fact, rather costly in terms of scrap metal. Perhaps, it could be split up in parts that have to be crafted separately and THEN assembled together. I believe there hasn't been such a procedure in the Long Dark before, and that could make this idea either great or ridiculous :D Anyway, here's my proposal for the craftable trap. I used an image of a bear trap in Fallout.

 

Fo4FH_bear_trap.png.5accba7b1bfe3759b58cc887f35b0dd5.png

 

As you can see, it takes a while to make this baby. In total, one would need a Heavy Hammer, a Simple/Quality Toolkit, 12 Scrap Metal and 2 units of Line. One of the parts, the Jaws in particular, need a Forge to be made. 10 hours later, once all 3 parts have been crafted, another hour is needed to assemble the trap. I believe Simple/Quality Tools and the Heavy Hammer have set decay percentage per hour of usage. The combined weight of the trap itself should weigh between 5=10 kg / 11-22 lbs. The Scrap Metal doesn't add up to that weight, so should it be more expensive in terms of Metal? Let me know what you think.

Now, as for Skill Levels for "Trapping". This is just brainstorming, so it may not be balanced (probably not lol).

Level  Skill Points(1 for each catch)        Skill Traits

1                            0                               Basic Skill ( Per Use Condition Loss 45%, Trap Escape Chance: 30%, Escape Condition Loss: 55%)

2                            10                             Per Use Condition Loss 35% , Trap Escape Chance: 25%, Escape Condition Loss: 45%

3                            25                             Per Use Condition Loss 30% , Trap Escape Chance: 20%, Escape Condition Loss: 35%, Trap Placement time reduction: 5%

4                            45                             Per Use Condition Loss 25%, Trap Escape Chance: 10%, Escape Condition Loss: 30%, Trap Placement time reduction: 10%

5                            80                             Per Use Condition Loss 15%, Trap Escape Chance: 5%, Escape Condition Loss: 20%, Trap Placement time reduction: 25%

 

As for the Trap's function, it should be placed in the path of an animal, not based on random generation, like @Hilayla said. Placement time should also be a factor. Burrowing it deep in the snow should need a tool and more time (maybe a Hatchet?) while attaching to a tree would require less time. Should the animal get caught in the trap, the player can kill the animal with ammunition. There should be a cost there, and it's more costly to use ammunition than a knife ( @TeflonGoon a knife execution would require more resources to pull off in animation, in my honest opinion. Plus, ammunition is more valuable (=limited in numbers) than knives in TLD).     The captured animal, should it escape from the trap, will leave it damaged according to skill (a better crafted trap would be more resilient). If the player encounters the trapped animal too soon after it was caught, there is a greater chance of the animal escaping and, in the case of predators, will attack the player giving the same CONDITION damage, but higher damage variety: more sprains, bleeding wounds etc ( except for the moose, since it only causes Broken Ribs during a struggle). Wait TOO long, and the animal might escape, and the trap will get damaged slightly. If there is a blizzard before or after the animal is caught, the animal will escape and the trap wil suffer condition damage as if the animal escaped on its own. I don't know how the game works on every technical level, so I am unaware if the game can simulate all this while the player is indoors. It is likely the player will need to be outdoors, to monitor the trap and wait at a distance when the animal walks close to  it, to make sure it is trapped and to wait for a while to minimize the escape chance. Maybe that is a bit too cruel, I don't know. I have little familiarity with trapping large animals like this IRL, so excuse my ignorance.

Finally , a trap would need 1 line and 3 Scrap Metal and Simple/Quality Tools to repair by 25%. It could be randomly (and rarely) placed at hunting-oriented locales, like Trapper's in ML, Hunting Lodge in BR etc. It could be found in any condition , and decaying slowly. Harvesting it when ruined should yield 3 Scrap Metal.

What do you think?

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ 

Edit: My image does not show, plz help :D probably because it's bmp?

Edit 2: Ok I fixed it. Posted in png. Not as HQ as bmp though.

Edited by thefistoffury1
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On 1/8/2019 at 1:01 AM, TeflonGoon said:

I did a search and found there's been some discussion about animal traps, but they're buried in general posts (with titles like "Some Ideas"), so I figured I'd give the topic its own post.

I did a post on a bear trap some time ago and I'll stand by it being a good idea. I figured that way to balance it is to have only 3-4 spawn in the entire world and to either a) make them non-repairable (more likely, I think), or b) require quality tools and a decent amount of resources. To simplify things, it would act similar to the snare where you place it near a bear or wolf area, but then drop some raw meat on the trap (kinda like how a campfire works). It might take days to catch something and the meat would need to be checked and replaced if it became ruined.

Furthermore, even if placed near bear territory, there'd be a chance of catching a wolf instead and no matter what you'd have to dispatch the creature on your own with risk of it raging and breaking free if you didn't finish it in one shot.

If the trap caught something and you wait too long you'll be rewarded with an empty trap that takes significant reduction in condition and if it was a bear you'd caught then that bear despawns for a decent amount of time.

EDIT: just did a quick google search on bear traps, and another factor would be the weight. One I found on Amazon weighed in at 50 lbs (roughly 22.5 kgs)

Edited by Willy Pete
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8 hours ago, Willy Pete said:

To simplify things, it would act similar to the snare where you place it near a bear or wolf area, but then drop some raw meat on the trap (kinda like how a campfire works). It might take days to catch something and the meat would need to be checked and replaced if it became ruined.

I like the add bait idea!

I think something in the 20 kg range would be a good weight for such a powerful item.

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14 hours ago, Willy Pete said:

I did a post on a bear trap some time ago and I'll stand by it being a good idea. I figured that way to balance it is to have only 3-4 spawn in the entire world and to either a) make them non-repairable (more likely, I think), or b) require quality tools and a decent amount of resources. 

If they were non-repairable, would they always remain in 100% condition? Or would they perish after some use?

Edited by thefistoffury1

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