ben91

WARNING: contains criticism and sarcasm

28 posts in this topic

Hey everyone,

here we are, another year down the road, shortly after a „major“ update, time for me to talk about the state of the game and why it Fails to provide a challenge and interesting gameplay for me and some other players

First of all, let me explain from which perspective i express my opinion to provide a better context. I am a player who likes survival games and TLD was my favourite survival game for a long time. But i am also a Player who likes to be constantly challenged and being able to have the freedom to play a game the way i want to. Unfortunately, Hinterland absolutly fails to provide both of these aspects. While TLD is a very atmospheric and beautiful semi-realistic survival game, it does not provide any longterm challenge and enjoyment for very experienced players and the opportunity for players to play the game how they want to. and so far, according to their Actions, Hinterland does not seem to be interesting in providing These aspects in their game.

Since there probably will be a lot of people who disagree with me and want to leave a response, please consider following things before you do:

  • i respect the fact that there are a lot of players who totally enjoy the game in its current state, but people also have to understand that there are a lot of players who dont enjoy the game and its progress, or the lack thereof

  • pls try to understand the substance of my criticism and changes before you try to argue that some of my suggestions would make the game easier or to realistic

  • english is not my first language  

The sad and frustrating thing is, that many of these issues could be solved by rather simple changes and with little effort and ressources, which makes it an even more frustrating experience for players like me. For me it is simply not very enjoyable to play a game and constantly be reminded how much more fun and interesting the game could be, while being unable to solve These issues myself.

Before i give some examples of how i think the game could be improved, let me briefly talk about some of the major changes to game since i started playing it about 3 years ago.

  • There were  countless changes to the interface and HUD

  • They added a custom difficulty mode

  • They recently added a new clothing item (the only item i remember to be added within about 3 years)

  • They reworked the cooking System

    • and while cooking on stoves and ovens feels very intuitive and improved, cooking on campfires still feels very static. not only is it questionable why only 2 items can be cooked on a campfire at the same time, i am also Always asking myself where the character gets all These Stones for the campfire.

  • They also added about 3 zones

    • Unfortunately the last area, hushed river valley, felt more like playing a level in a video game than an interesting zone. There were conveniently placed items at every single corner where you could just feel how much the developers thought about placing the item specificly at this location. Some „hidden“ paths were suspiciously covered by lines of bushes. The only missing thing was a hidden endboss in one of the ice Caves.

  • they added and completly overhauled the story mode

    • While i can understand that some players feel like they bought an unfinshed game due to the unfinished story mode and slow progress, i will mainly focus on the sandbox mode

    • they also recently added a new item, the bear spear, but instead of adding a new and interesing item to the sandbox, for some reason they were not able to make it available to the sandbox mode

But just complaining about something is not very productive, unless you provide some input and suggestions. Therefore i follow up with some of the things i think about to improve the game, and like i said, most of these changes dont necessarily need much ressources and are very easy to implement. And while adding new content like zones and items is always nice, i will mainly focus on changes to the existing game.

  • Hunting rework

    • In my opinion, hunting should be one of the major aspects of the game. What better way to make such an atmospheric survival game more interesting than the  driving quest for food. The snowy landscape of TLD provides the perfect setting to hunt down roaming wildlife by the tracks they left in the snow. I imagine it to be very satisfying to find some fresh tracks in the snow, trying to follow them over the map and finally spotting the animal and taking your shot.

    • In contrast to these intersting mechanics, lets have a look at what hunting in this game is currently all about. Very simple. There are certain spawnpoints and paths in each zone where you can find speficifc types of wild animals. I guess most players know these patterns by now and all you have to do is to sneak up to their face and through a rock at them. Overall wildlife in this game just feels very static, there is a abundance of animals on every map and you can spot animals from miles away, which makes hunting a very boring and unrewarding experience.
    • Not to mention all the other possible mechanics to make hunting and survival a more interesting and challenging experience. Carcasses could attract predators like wolves and bears from all over the map, crows could slowly feast on carcasses, new traps could be added to the game and you could run some trapping lines, etc. etc.
  • more Variety of fur colors

    • Another fairly simple change would be a more diverse color of animal furs. Not only does it make the game a little bit more realistic and diverse, it also makes the game a little bit more difficult in some instances, if you cant spot wildlife that easy anymore.

  • Skillsystem rework

    • The skill system in TLD also needs some overhaul. In my opinion a skill system should feel rewarding to the player and make him better at doing certain things, but it should not remove certain survival aspects from the game, esp. not in a survival game. While the current system makes sense and feels rewarding in some ways, removing aspects like not having to use tinder to start a fire or the danger of food poisoning and parasites just makes the game too easy in the late game and feels counter intuitive in a survival game.
    • I was already talking about tracking being a potential hunting method, so what about a tracking skill line that  makes you more effective at tracking animals and using traps.
  • Afflictions rework

    • There are also some easy ways to improve the affliction system. Not only heal some afflictions way to fast, where a simple adjustment in numbers could make them more challenging, it could also be added more afflictions like a simple Cold
    • an example of a bad designed affliction is cabin fever in my opinion. It just feels like hinterland was looking for a way to make the game harder for experienced players, but adding an affliction to the game that makes a player unable to rest indoors just feels like such a cheap way to do that. There could be much more interesting ways to incentivize the player to stay outdoors like adding more temporary shelters. In general it feels like hinterland made some very cheap gameplay choices to make the game harder for experienced players instead of thinking about and adding interesting mechanic
  • Weight/craftingtime rework

    • Another simple change to make the game a little bit more realistic
    • It is just weird when a box of matches weights half a kilo and preparing (cutting) some rose hips takes 15 minutes
    • The character should also be able to move smaller objects like carcasses and boxes by using right-click. While they made the change to move dead rabbits like that, i guess hinterland thinks that the character is not strong enough to move a wolf or some planks around. Nothing more frustrating than not being able to drag a carcass over a short distance to some windproof location or near a fire. And while the weight oft he dragged item is being added tot he inventory for that duration, the mechanic could also not be exploited
  • Custom mode improvements

    • While the custom difficulty mode was a very necessary addition to provide a dynamic alternative to all the other static modes, it is by far not as useful as it could be. Many oft he individual  options just let you choose between the setting oft he different difficulty modes, and therefore it is almost impossible to make the game much harder than the interloper mode. In ordert o make the game more challenging for players and make them able to enjoy playing the game the way they want, they just have to add more settings in general and also increase the scale of each single setting. I bet more players would like to see some more challenging gameplay that focuses on harsher weather and nature rather than placing wolves at every corner oft he game and removing certain items from the game
    • It woudl also open up for some custom made Challenges, why not let the players have some fun challenging their skills  by playing modes like „only night-time with frequent aurora“ or „blizzards every day“ for example
    • there are also way too many preplaced carcasses and dead humans on the map that not only make the game so much easier, they also „force“ players to walk to certain spots on the map tob e efficient. A simple option to remove them in the custom settings would make everyone happy
  • Items

    • There are some items in the game that are very interesting but unfortunately dont see any use. For example they could rework the crafting material for snow Shelters to make them more useful and interesting. Maybe they could reduce the abundance of caves on some maps to make them more viable. Crafting torches also became obsolete after you can get them from fires
    • There are also some very simple and useful items that defenitly should be added tot he game. Why are there still no items like  binoculars, lighters or compasses to find in the game? They are fairly easy to implement into the game, they perfectly fit into the setting and make the game much more interesting without making it to easy
    • Another interesting change would be the effectiveness of tools accoirding to their durability. Not only does such a system make a lot of sense, it also adds more depth tot he game by making items like a whetstone more useful in the early game and gives the player an incentive to keep their tools in perfect condition
    • While the mapping system is a nice feature for some players, it would also be nice to see some artisticly designed „tourist-maps“ for each zone with all the major points of interest, while the custom map could provide a much more detailed overview
    • Another subtle change would be more locked doors that need a key or a prybar to be opened
    • Not to mention all the hundrets of awesome and interesting ideas people are sharing on the wish list section oft he forum and seem tob e totally ignored by hinterland. We saw maybe 1 or 2 tings oft hem being added within a couple of years, that just feels very frustrating
  • outdated concepts

    • there are also some outdated concepts and mechancis in the game that should be reconsidered. As it makes a lot of sense that i need a forge to craft certain things, i still dont understand why exactly i need a workbench to craft a trap, bow or some clothing items. Why not remove this requirement and make the game that much more interesting. Wouldnt it be atmospheric to be trapped inside a cave during a blizzard and craft some arrows while you are cooking your  food on the campfire
    • some skill books could be designed to learn a new crafting item after reading it  

while the game seems to provide a very satisfying experience for casual players, i tried to explain why hinterland fails to provide the same kind of experience for some other players, especially those who are looking for a lasting and challenging type of gameplay where the player can decide themself how they want to play the game. For me it feels like the game has so much potential but Hinterland is only using a Tiny fraction of that. While i am sure that the developers at hinterland think that they are making much progress and constantly improve the game, i cant stop feel that the game is making no progress at all, esp. considering the longterm replayability and improvement of fundamental Gameplay mechanics. as i tried to make clear above, there are so many, mostly simple changes, to the game that would make it so much more interesting and increase the amount of time this game can be enjoyed. The game literally has the potential to provide an infinite Gameplay experience, even for the most experienced Players. TLD is a very atmospheric game with a small and engaged community, and instead of seemingly ignoring Players and the improvements they suggest and wish for the game, they should embrace the Engagement and ethusiasm of Players and use it to their Advantage by giving the community the opportunity to help to improve the game, for example by giving them the opportunity to create mods. that way Players would be able to add items to the game by themself instead of having to wait for the developers to add Maybe About 1 or 2 of the hoped for items each year. so far the game esp. Fails to provide the Players the opportunity to enjoy and Play the game like each idividual Player wants to. Custom mode was a necessary way to improve that Option and mod support would probably the most effective way to adress this issue, but there are also a lot of Things Hinterland itself can do, starting with a significant improvement of the custom mode Settings. it seems like there are a lot of ressources spend each update to redesign the HUD and interface of the game, Maybe These ressources could be reallocated and used to improve more significant aspects. Overall i just hope a thread like this will draw some attentiion to These issues that affect a decent amount of Players and lead to some consideration at Hinterland Studios, because Players like me would really like to Play and enjoy the game, but at its current state, this is simpy not possible.

 

Edited by ben91
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I find your point very interresting, I think it's true some times that there are some issues about the difference between real life and the game. No possibility to move carcass or harvest in 15min rose hips... But I think a game can't be exactly like real life, to create a stability between every elements of the game, you should choose to go for the balanced idea and create a little issue more than following the rules of the real life. 

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24 minutes ago, Black_Bird said:

I find your point very interresting, I think it's true some times that there are some issues about the difference between real life and the game. No possibility to move carcass or harvest in 15min rose hips... But I think a game can't be exactly like real life, to create a stability between every elements of the game, you should choose to go for the balanced idea and create a little issue more than following the rules of the real life. 

i am not advocating for a hyper realistic Survival game or some changes to the game to make it overly realistic, but i guess we can all agree that TLD tries to be a semi-realistic and atmosthperic Survival game. in that regard it also does not make much sense for the game to design some aspects purposely unrealistic. that being said, i think most of my suggested improvements who make the game more realistic are not very unproportionaly complicated to implicated and also make the game much more interesting and challenging in regard to its realism.

take the workbench as example. they choose to implement that mechanic despite it being arguably very unrealistic Concept. therefore they should reconsider that Concept and think About all the additional opportunities and interesting Things that such a Change could bring to the game. at least they should give Players the opportunity to decide themself if they want to Play the game with that particular Concept or not.

Edited by ben91

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I just think you (and all of us) need to be patient. Most of the suggestions you've made for improvements are very good and well thought out, but it isn't fair to criticise Hinterland for not implementing all of them right now.

In the Milton Mailbag Q&As, Raphael van Lierop has consistently stated that he'd like to revisit things like animal AI and hunting, afflictions, crafting, and so on, and make improvements to them. I'm personally quite optimistic about seeing those things in future, judging by what I've read. But for now, it looks like Survival Mode updates will be coming in bits and pieces along with the new Wintermute content.

Hinterland have released the game - we've already paid for it. They have an obligation to complete the Wintermute story as part of the game they've advertised and sold to us, but Survival Mode updates are essentially "free", and the work done on them doesn't necessarily generate a return for the studio. So I don't think it's something players should be so demanding of - they are essentially given to us for nothing by sheer good will. They've said that they are committed to supporting Mods in future - after Wintermute is finished - so we just have to wait for that.

In the mean time, the best way I've found to make the game more challenging using the Custom Settings is to reduce the Condition Regain right down to its bare minimum. This means you only get about 12% back per night of sleep, instead of the 40-50% you get in interloper. You can also reduce the amount of natural resources available A LOT from their interloper values, which also makes quite a difference, especially when it comes to cattails. I agree with you that the single most effective way for the devs to give the game more lasting challenge for experienced players would be to expand on the Custom Settings even further. I really hope they do this. 

Edited by Pillock
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The time it takes to do some stuff is unrealistic in many places, but it's a delicate balance. You can't start these things from a realism POV, but by considering how much you want a player to do in a day. If you bring down the time it takes to break down stuff or craft certain things, the player can get done more in day. And do more with a certain amount of calories and just resources in general. Up to a point that can be ok. But changing these times too much would also makes the game too easy again.

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1 hour ago, Pillock said:

I just think you (and all of us) need to be patient. Most of the suggestions you've made for improvements are very good and well thought out, but it isn't fair to criticise Hinterland for not implementing all of them right now.

i think it is fairly reasonable to ask for some substantial changes within a couple of years.

1 hour ago, Pillock said:

In the Milton Mailbag Q&As, Raphael van Lierop has consistently stated that he'd like to revisit things like animal AI and hunting, afflictions, crafting, and so on, and make improvements to them. I'm personally quite optimistic about seeing those things in future, judging by what I've read. But for now, it looks like Survival Mode updates will be coming in bits and pieces along with the new Wintermute Content.

ohh jeah, they "want" to Change a lot of Things, but Nothing is happening

1 hour ago, Pillock said:

Hinterland have released the game - we've already paid for it. They have an obligation to complete the Wintermute story as part of the game they've advertised and sold to us, but Survival Mode updates are essentially "free", and the work done on them doesn't necessarily generate a return for the studio. So I don't think it's something players should be so demanding of - they are essentially given to us for nothing by sheer good will. They've said that they are committed to supporting Mods in future - after Wintermute is finished - so we just have to wait for that.

Story mode updates are "free" aswell and arguing that way doesnt not make much sense anwyway. ohh jeah sorry my mistake, since satisfied customers and happy Players generate no value for the Studio, Players should not ask for such improvements?!?!?!?! sure, they have every Right to work on a game for years, release it unfinished and slowly improving it, but at the same way i have every Right to express my concern and criticism About that.

1 hour ago, Pillock said:

In the mean time, the best way I've found to make the game more challenging using the Custom Settings is to reduce the Condition Regain right down to its bare minimum. This means you only get about 12% back per night of sleep, instead of the 40-50% you get in interloper. You can also reduce the amount of natural resources available A LOT from their interloper values, which also makes quite a difference, especially when it comes to cattails. I agree with you that the single most effective way for the devs to give the game more lasting challenge for experienced players would be to expand on the Custom Settings even further. I really hope they do this. 

as i said multiple times in my original post, even the hardest custom Settings dont present any interesting and challenging Gameplay for very experienced Players. if it works fine for you, be happy, on the same Hand try to expand your mind and try to understand that it doesnt work for many other Players.

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1 hour ago, Serenity said:

The time it takes to do some stuff is unrealistic in many places, but it's a delicate balance. You can't start these things from a realism POV, but by considering how much you want a player to do in a day. If you bring down the time it takes to break down stuff or craft certain things, the player can get done more in day. And do more with a certain amount of calories and just resources in general. Up to a point that can be ok. But changing these times too much would also makes the game too easy again.

i advised Players to be carful to argue About changes making the game too easy. since These time changes are very minor and effect the Gameplay not that much, they dont make it much easier in the first place anyway, and since i am clearly advocating for some Major changes to make the game much harder, the Argument of making it easier gets even weaker. i rather have some reasonable time Settings to craft some Thing and the Option to make Blizzards last for a couple of days, than unreasonable crafting times and easy Blizzards that only last a couple of Hours.

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12 minutes ago, ben91 said:

i think it is fairly reasonable to ask for some substantial changes within a couple of years.

ohh jeah, they "want" to Change a lot of Things, but Nothing is happening

Story mode updates are "free" aswell and arguing that way doesnt not make much sense anwyway. ohh jeah sorry my mistake, since satisfied customers and happy Players generate no value for the Studio, Players should not ask for such improvements?!?!?!?! sure, they have every Right to work on a game for years, release it unfinished and slowly improving it, but at the same way i have every Right to express my concern and criticism About that.

as i said multiple times in my original post, even the hardest custom Settings dont present any interesting and challenging Gameplay for very experienced Players. if it works fine for you, be happy, on the same Hand try to expand your mind and try to understand that it doesnt work for many other Players.

Your first post contained good ideas and some valid arguments. This one is just a nonsensical rant. 

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19 minutes ago, Pillock said:

Your first post contained good ideas and some valid arguments. This one is just a nonsensical rant. 

thats interesting, because i basically said Nothing new in this post and just rephrased some Arguments of my orginal post in a more sarcastic way^^

as i said, as much as you have every Right to be satisfied with the product, i have every Right to express my criticism and argue why Players like me disagree with the Progress of the game. and while being a Little bit sarcastic About it, i think i still present some fair and productive criticism and not just some nonsensical rant.

you cant just declare the Story mode as Primary mode of this game and argue that every Thing else that goes into the Survival mode is basically just a Bonus, esp. if the Story modes is one of the Major driving factors of the game and the only Thing that keeps experienced Players playing the game, aswell as being the mode with probalby  the highest potential to attract new and more Players to the game. therefor you should not be surprised that not everyone has the same oppinion as you have.

Edited by ben91

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13 minutes ago, ben91 said:

 

you cant just declare the Story mode as Primary mode of this game and argue that every Thing else that goes into the Survival mode is basically just a Bonus, esp. if the Story modes is one of the Major driving factors of the game and the only Thing that keeps experienced Players playing the game, aswell as being the mode with the highest potential to attract new and more Players to the game. therefor you should not be surprised that not everyone has the same oppinion as you have.

I don't think the story mode is the primary mode. But Wintermute is advertised as a five part series, and currently it only has 2 of those parts: therefore there is a direct obligation on the devs to finish and release episodes 3-5  of Wintermute. There is no such obligation on them to update Survival Mode, even though they've said that they will continue to.

We've paid for Survival Mode, and we've got Survival Mode. We've paid for Wintermute, and we haven't got Wintermute yet. That's the difference.

Hinterland has promised to continue updating Survivor Mode while Wintermute is still in development, and that's great. It's likely that some of your suggestions will make it into those updates. So that's a good thing.

My point is that we just need to be patient. Hinterland is continuing to develop the game, and there will be updates released in the coming months, if not years. And there will be officially supported modding in the future. So you will get your wishes - we just need to wait. And play the game in whatever mode you find most interesting to you in the mean time. 

Edited by Pillock
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For me I am not a very patient person, but even I must admit I would much rather prefer to wait for a better product, then get one sooner and it be no good.

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20 minutes ago, Pillock said:

I don't think the story mode is the primary mode. But Wintermute is advertised as a five part series, and currently it only has 2 of those parts: therefore there is a direct obligation on the devs to finish and release episodes 3-5  of Wintermute. There is no such obligation on them to update Survival Mode, even though they've said that they will continue to.

We've paid for Survival Mode, and we've got Survival Mode. We've paid for Wintermute, and we haven't got Wintermute yet. That's the difference.

Hinterland has promised to continue updating Survivor Mode while Wintermute is still in development, and that's great. It's likely that some of your suggestions will make it into those updates. So that's a good thing.

 

Quote

My point is that we just need to be patient. Hinterland is continuing to develop the game, and there will be updates released in the coming months, if not years. And there will be officially supported modding in the future. So you will get your wishes - we just need to wait. And play the game in whatever mode you find most interesting to you in the mean time. 

i never doubted that they will continue to imrpove  sandbox mode and Major aspects of it, aswell as adding new Things and items to the game. i do however strongly criticize the Speed at which the game Progresses. while i can understand that Hinterland is not a very big Studio and probably tries to do their best, i can however not understand how they struggle so much to improve the base game and mechanics, continue to add new Content and fail so horribly to listen to the community and their suggestions of improvements. like i said, i Play the game for probably more than 3 years now and i listed all the Things and changes during this time. and to be honest, considering all circumstances, the result is still very disappointing. and it is absolutly justified for Players to Question their priorities. i can understand that it might make sense for them to overhaul the already existing two parts of the storymode considering how they want to continue it. but does it really makes sense to spend so many ressources for that, and is it really not possible to improve suggested mechanics and aspects separat to that. also there are more than hundret awesome ideas Players have shared in the wish list section of the game and basically None of them have made it to the game over a couple of years now. so it is also absolutly justified when Players get frustrated About that and feel ignored, no matter how much they try to repeat that they are going to add some of These Thing at some time in future, because at the rate of Progress the Players would have to wait another couple of years so see These Things make it to the game. i do also not understand why one of their highest priorities was not to add mod support very early in the game. in my oppinion such feature is one on the Major aspects and biggest potential for such a game. it would be such a great tool for the community and the best way to make every Player able to enjoy and Play the game how they want. that way engaged Players could help to make the game better while they are focussing on other aspects of the game like the Story mode and they just had to periodicly add the best player created Content to the base game. and, like i hopfefully emphasized with my original post, it does not really need that many Major and complicated changes to the game to improve its longterm playability, even very small and easy changes could have a very very postitive effect without taking to many ressources from other projects. and dont tell me that all These subjects would not be profitable for the game and the Company.

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I 100% agree with you. There needs to be something to make me feel truly challenged. Instead of being the king of the world.

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20 hours ago, ben91 said:

never doubted that they will continue to imrpove  sandbox mode and Major aspects of it, aswell as adding new Things and items to the game. i do however strongly criticize the Speed at which the game Progresses. while i can understand that Hinterland is not a very big Studio and probably tries to do their best, i can however not understand how they struggle so much to improve the base game and mechanics, continue to add new Content and fail so horribly to listen to the community and their suggestions of improvements

I think it's a bit unfair to say that they don't listen to community feedback. The whole Redux is a result of player feedback on the original version of Wintermute, and that's what's apparently been taking up the majority of development time for the last year and more. The redux is why Survivor Mode updates have taken a back seat in terms of development priority,and that's finished now. 

That might not be in line with what you'd personally have liked to see, but it is what it is. And furthermore, the recent expansions to the studio and Dev team do indicate that progress on both parts of the game are likely to speed up from now on. 

At the risk of repeating myself, I think of you give them time you'll probably find that the things you want to see changed about the Survival mode gameplay do get addressed. I'm with you in that I'd also like to similar changes to existing mechanics, or at least the ability for players to tinker more with them in custom settings. But I think the devs are more likely to take your suggestions on board if you don't accuse them of ignoring the community and being too slow to give you what you want. 

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21 hours ago, ben91 said:

 

...fail so horribly to listen to the community and their suggestions of improvements.

1

There are three notes that are worth making on this point.

1) We have done a large number of things based on community and player feedback including a lot of the REDUX changes. We've also been responsive at tweaking and tuning gameplay elements based on fan feedback after something is introduced. 

2) The "community" is not a single monolithic hive mind that where everyone wants the same thing. The community is diverse and has a variety of interests and areas that they'd like to see us focus on. The most obvious divide is between those players who are primarily focused on the Story Mode and those that are mostly interested in the Survival Mode. If your personal list of items/changes that you'd like to see come to The Long Dark have not yet been added or addressed that doesn't mean we haven't been adding stuff the community wants.

Further on this point if someone, for example, wanted us to add co-op Battle Royale style gameplay with fancy dances and a "play of the game" feature we wouldn't. That person might accuse us of not listening to the community, but those items were never going to come to the game. Your ideas and suggestions far more in keeping with the game and hopefully, we're able to address some of them as we update and develop The Long Dark.

3) There is a difference between listening to the community, which we will always do, and allowing the community to dictate the design and development of The Long Dark. We value community feedback and thank you for it but we are the ones developing The Long Dark.

Hopefully, that addresses this point.

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2 hours ago, Pillock said:

At the risk of repeating myself, I think of you give them time you'll probably find that the things you want to see changed about the Survival mode gameplay do get addressed. I'm with you in that I'd also like to similar changes to existing mechanics, or at least the ability for players to tinker more with them in custom settings. But I think the devs are more likely to take your suggestions on board if you don't accuse them of ignoring the community and being too slow to give you what you want. 

at the Risk of repeating myself. "I" am  already waiting About 3 years for some Major changes and improvements, and according to the Progress of the game it will take a couple of years more to see some Major improvements and addidtions to the game. i dont think you can call that "being impatient".  as i said, after all These years of sharing what Things some part of the community are wishing for in the game and hundrets of People sharing their thoughts in the wish-list section and seeing basically None of These changes being realized, i think it is not some unfrair behaviour. and doing that by giving constructive criticism About the game, even if it is sarcastic, is also not some rude way to express your concerns.

1 hour ago, admin said:

There are three notes that are worth making on this point.

1) We have done a large number of things based on community and player feedback including a lot of the REDUX changes. We've also been responsive at tweaking and tuning gameplay elements based on fan feedback after something is introduced. 

i am Aware of the ongoing effort the Studio puts into the game and their effort to implement requested Features into the game in the future. but on the other Hand, the Studio should also be Aware that there are parts of the communuity, that feel completely ignored. yes, the Studio was working on the game for a Long time, they are still working on it and they will continue to work on it, that is without Question. however, if there are basicly no Major improvments or changes to make the game more interesting, or Keep it interesting for a certain type of Players, you should not be surprised to get some criticism from that part of the community. and some absolutly fair criticism in my mind aswell, where i explain my Point of view and the part of community i am Talking About and also explain how some of These issues could be solved.

1 hour ago, admin said:

2) The "community" is not a single monolithic hive mind that where everyone wants the same thing. The community is diverse and has a variety of interests and areas that they'd like to see us focus on. The most obvious divide is between those players who are primarily focused on the Story Mode and those that are mostly interested in the Survival Mode. If your personal list of items/changes that you'd like to see come to The Long Dark have not yet been added or addressed that doesn't mean we haven't been adding stuff the community wants.

Further on this point if someone, for example, wanted us to add co-op Battle Royale style gameplay with fancy dances and a "play of the game" feature we wouldn't. That person might accuse us of not listening to the community, but those items were never going to come to the game. Your ideas and suggestions far more in keeping with the game and hopefully, we're able to address some of them as we update and develop The Long Dark.

first of all, in the first few sentences i stated that i am speaking for a certain part of the community, namingly the part who is seeking a challenging sandbox Survival experience, and i am Aware of the fact that this part of the community is rather small, while i am also very sure that the part of the playerbase who is mainly playing Survival mode is rather large. I am also sure that the sutdio is absolutly Aware of the fact that this part of the communnity is very unsatisfied with the Progress over the last couple of years. and while there are a lot of changes that affect either one or the other mode, most significant changes and improvements would be those to the base game, that means Story mode and Survival mode would improve at the same time. therefore the Argument that the Studio has to Focus on either of These modes at a time is not very valid. the same goes for items that could be added to the game, since they could be added to both modes at the same time. therefor it should not come as a surprise to you that Players share their ideas and thoughts for years now in the wish-list section of the game and get frustrated when they see basically None of These hundrets of ideas added to the game over the Course of years.

i already explained that it is especially sad and frustrating for some Players, when there are a lot of opportunities and ways for the developers to provide at least a short- or mid-term solution for a more challenging Gameplay that dont take very Long to create or take much ressources. that is exactly what you probably did with the interloper difficulty. the Studio was Aware that there is a lack of a challgene for experienced Players, so what you did was thinking About the easiest way to provide a shot-term solution for such a challenge without much effort and ressources. thats why you made the weather harsher, Wolves more dangerous and mainly removed some items from the game. That way you created a much more challenging, but unfortunately not very satisfiying, Gameplay experience. While i can perfectly understand such a Change to create a short-term solution, i strongly hope that the Studios plan for a Long-term solution is not the easy way to just remove items from the game to make the game harder, but some fundamental changes and improvements to the base mechanics of the game. however, even with so many possibly ways to create some short-term challenge, of which an improvement of the custom mode Settings is probably the easiest and best way, there seems to be no such effort by the Studio to adress this issue. it is highly questionable for me why the Studio was not able to create a more challenging Gameplay experience for These Players, because you should have been more than Aware of the fact that the custom mode povides some new Tools and changes, but even they are not able to provide a significantly more challenging experience than interloper. again, i understand the Argument that some of These Things will make it to the game in the future and you already added some to the game, but mainly this is not the case and how many years is an appropriate time to wait for Players? and as much as this is not About my "personal list" i want to see in the game, the fact that you have been adding some "stuff" the community wants, doesnt mean that there is not a majority of "stuff" you have not adressed so far,

1 hour ago, admin said:

3) There is a difference between listening to the community, which we will always do, and allowing the community to dictate the design and development of The Long Dark. We value community feedback and thank you for it but we are the ones developing The Long Dark.

there is also a difference between just listening to the community and actually listening to the community. I also dont see how some productive criticism and helpful suggestions could be seen as dictating the studio what to do, all i intended to do was bringing some attionion to the fact how some part of the community feels about the current state of the game. And since you are the ones developing the game, Players have their absolute Right to adress you with criticism and Feedback About the game and to express their concerns About the development.

1 hour ago, admin said:

Hopefully, that addresses this point.

unfortunately it did not. but it was not my Intention the get some new Information or intersting Feedback. all i wanted to do is make the Studio Aware of the fact that some part of their community is highly disappointed and frustrated with the development and progress of the game, while i did my best to explain the Situation and give some constructive Feedback. what you are doing with that in the end is up to you. I already know that it will sadly take a couple more years of development for the game to be enjoyable and challenging for Players like me again, so i dont pay much Attention to it anymore.

as i am Aware of the fact that arguing with staff members on the Forum is against the rules, and i choosed to the respond, this thread is probably not going to last very Long and i will get banned anyway.

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42 minutes ago, Karl Grylls said:

Made my day Hinterland :D:D:D

Merry Christmas to all of you. And that some here get the love they need.

Merry Christmas

and dont worry, you will find someone eventually :)

Edited by ben91

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Well ben91 I am entirely unimpressed with your response to Admin- you've lost a lot of respect in my book.

As a long term survivalist in TLD you may think you're speaking for me but you are most assuredly not. And the rudeness with which you addressed Admin...essentially as if you were Luke Sykwalker facing off against Kylo Ren... brushing some dust off your shoulder is just sad.

I very much doubt that TLD will ever be made into the game you want...perhaps when production on Wintermute is done...and Modding is specifically supported then you can make it such.

However I have some doubts if you yourself would be able to be satisfied even if you were to mod the game to your liking.

I think sadly for you...it would never reach completion.

 

 

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1 hour ago, ben91 said:

and get frustrated when they see basically None of These hundrets of ideas added to the game over the Course of years.

@ben91 you must acknowledge the fact that the team is working hard. it's not simply a matter of shoving something into the game. I wouldn't want Hinterland to add seals or whales if they could not be killed and t-posed around the world. I wouldn't want new guns if they were just re-textured rifles that didn't even work properly. they can't go scrolling through the entire wish list and add everything. they have to select the things that are being requested the most. also, don't just glaze over the fact that adding something to a game, especially a game that is as complex as The Long Dark, takes time. it also usually takes money. adding everything that is being requested would probably double the amount of space The Long Dark takes up on a computer, and cost at least a 4 figure amount of money.

just, try not to make the team feel rushed.

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1 hour ago, RossBondReturns said:

Well ben91 I am entirely unimpressed with your response to Admin- you've lost a lot of respect in my book.

As a long term survivalist in TLD you may think you're speaking for me but you are most assuredly not. And the rudeness with which you addressed Admin...essentially as if you were Luke Sykwalker facing off against Kylo Ren... brushing some dust off your shoulder is just sad.

I very much doubt that TLD will ever be made into the game you want...perhaps when production on Wintermute is done...and Modding is specifically supported then you can make it such.

However I have some doubts if you yourself would be able to be satisfied even if you were to mod the game to your liking.

I think sadly for you...it would never reach completion.

hey ross,

i am sorry to inform you that i never had the Intention to impress you, neither am i interested in your respect.

i dont think my Response was particularly rude, all i did was saying my opinion and expressing my Feelings. and since the admin responded in a somewhat sarcasitic way, i should not be blamed for being somewhat sarcastic myself.

as i said, as far as i know arguing with admins in the Forum is against the rules, so by simply responding to him without agreeing to everything he said, they can remove the post and ban me.

i already stated my Point of view and the part of the community i am Talking About, and i have absolutly no Problem if you are not one of them. i appreciate however your effort to tell me that.

as you have stated yourself, mod support would be a great way to adress the issue and fix all my Problems, hence why i am hoping to eventually see this feature in the game. thanks for coming here and supporting my efforts.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, gnomegnine said:

@ben91 you must acknowledge the fact that the team is working hard. it's not simply a matter of shoving something into the game. I wouldn't want Hinterland to add seals or whales if they could not be killed and t-posed around the world. I wouldn't want new guns if they were just re-textured rifles that didn't even work properly. they can't go scrolling through the entire wish list and add everything. they have to select the things that are being requested the most. also, don't just glaze over the fact that adding something to a game, especially a game that is as complex as The Long Dark, takes time. it also usually takes money. adding everything that is being requested would probably double the amount of space The Long Dark takes up on a computer, and cost at least a 4 figure amount of money.

just, try not to make the team feel rushed.

hey gnomegnine,

pls try to read my entire Statement and understand the context, so you can realize that i defenitly acknowledged their constant work at the game. it is also not very helpful to just pick a single Phrase out of my combined Statement and Maybe out of context  and try to disprove it by explaining what they have done so far. also did i never glaze over the fact that development takes time, in fact i did excatly the opposite. i stated multiple times that many Things take "relatively" small amount of ressources and time aswell as the game being in develoment for several years now. i also never demanded that they are going to add every single Thing ever suggested, it was not my Intention to present a list that i demand the developers to implement to the game. the reason for the list was to explain how some relatively small and very simple changes are able to improve the game by a lot. and since some of These Change are very obvious, highly demanded by the community and easy to implement, i wanted to emphasize how having to wait About half a decade for such changes to happen can feel fraily frustrating for parts of the community.

i dont understand the logic of the Argument of me making the developers Feeling rushed - for me, being a consumer and prepresenting some part of their community and them being a Company with the intent to generate some profit, they should be interested in any form of criticism since criticism is one of the Major factors of success and the driving force of improvement. therefore i have no Problem to share some productive criticism in a fairly polite way.

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Hello. Before I start, a fair warning. I am going to tear into you a lot. But that has nothing to do with you as a person, your views or ideas, or else. I am going to try to remain as objectional as possible, but I intent to point out fallacies in your statements and responses as I go. I hope you can see past any bias, so that you may see them in your behaviour, and in the future refrain from them, hopefully helping you to improve as a person, just like I once did. While I am very dissapointed with you, Ben, for the things I will get into later, I also have to commend you on coming forward to fight for your opinions, and giving us your feedback, though you should have shared it differently. I salute you on your efforts, you have my respect for that.

First, let me start off with a short introduction. I am a great fan of the game, and of all things survival related. I have been playing the game shortly after the alpha came out. It was, it is and most likely it will be my most favorite game of all time. It has its problems, sure, nothing is perfect. But, disregard my feelings about the game, I intend to remain objectional.

Now, lets visit some aspects:
You came here with a very passive-agressive attitude, which is unwarranted, and in fact quite unnecessary. Being pissed is not going to achieve anything, and trying to pick a fight with others by being rude is really not going to help, either. Trust me - you are reading a comment of the forum´s biggest douchebag of 2017 and early 18. I have been banned for very rude attitude in the past for some 8 months, but that was completely deserved - as I too picked fights back then. So saying you are going to get banned for disagreeing is just sad. No, if you will be banned for something, it is probably going to be for abusive behaviour, as I once was. I turned over the new leaf when I got unbanned some month ago and I can tell that by being nice and respectful, in that short time we have achieved great things in the community. Please, keep that in mind.

That goes double for showing respect where respect is due. Your attitude towards admin was immature, and I fully agree with Ross that you lost a lot of respect from me as well by handling it so. You should seek the respect of Ross as Ross is a seasoned member of these forums, and his insight carries a lot of weight. Instead, your reaction is to dismiss his opinion as irrelevant - but wasnt that exactly what you accuse Hinterland of? Please, notice how hypocritical that response of yours is.:( 

To briefly touch down on the essence of what Admin tried to express - the community is composed of great sea of ideas and opinions. It is virtually impossible to please everyone - as certain opinions are in direct contraindication to each other. So, the best thing Hinterland can do is try to satisfy the biggest amount of players possible. Sorry if that doesnt include you. But such is life - we dont always get what we want.

One thing you most definitely need to do for future references is to get your facts straight, and also to try and look at the problem from the perspective of the ones who oppose you. For example, the changes you called "simple" are not simple in the slightest - they would be incredibly difficult to design, program and debug in a short period of time. Especially in an indie studio. 

There are two types of responses a studio can make - 1st, they can roll out early concepts of things out, and then fix the issues as they arise. Or, they can keep the update under the pot and watch and fix the bugs before releasing it to general public. Hinterland chooses the latter, and rightly so. They roll out less content, but the content is fleshed out far better then most content of early updates is in the games these days.

As for the amount of content - I have been around for 5 years, on forums for well over 3. I can safely say that 70% of all things added have been suggested by the community, in a way that it was things that were discussed over and over and over again. Which is exactly how one can determine that these are, in fact, the wishes of majority. Not because someone says so. 

Lets take a look at the perspective of Hinterland together. You mentioned that Hinterland speak of wanting to add things but never really add things in the end. Why do you think that is? If you did your research first, you would find out that as an indie studio, until recently Hinterland had to lent a lot of their equipment from recording studios. So, on a lot of things they were limited by the schedules of the recording studio. It is just very recently that they hired more animators, and got their very own equipment. 
This is why the game had so little of animations in the game thus far. They were simply too expensive and too slow to make for an indie studio. There has been several setbacks on the way to the game over the years. It is very difficult to stay in business as an indie studio with a game that is so cheap. Yet, even at glance, if you are looking with an open mind, you can see that they care deeply for the wishes of the community, and that they care. Yet, Admin is right - in the end, it is their game, and we ought to respect their decisions as well. If you stick around and pay close attention yourself to the wishes and opinions of the community, you will see that Hinterland has a habbit of taking the best parts of the ideas of the community, and integrating them into their own creative ideas. The results are sometimes incredible - like the Hushed river valley, which in my opinion came to be as a synthesis between two different region ideas that someone neatly put together to create this amazing region.

 

Edited by Mroz4k
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Keeping this thread open a bit longer. Try to:

- only speak for yourself and not for a nebulous mass of fans. 

- avoid explaining how few resources something will take to add to the game

- insult other people or be combative. We can all agree or disagree without fighting. 

We have lots of players around the world with diverse opinions. We aren’t going to please everyone with every decision we make. If we have failed to please you that’s unfortunate and we’re happy you can express yourself and share what you want to see with us. 

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