ben91

WARNING: contains criticism and sarcasm

28 posts in this topic

23 minutes ago, Mroz4k said:

There are two types of responses a studio can make - 1st, they can roll out early concepts of things out, and then fix the issues as they arise. Or, they can keep the update under the pot and watch and fix the bugs before releasing it to general public. Hinterland chooses the latter, and rightly so.

Just for reference how the "early concept out, then fix it later" situation goes - think TLD Predux story mode. The unvoiced dialogs, and tons and tons of bugs. That is what happens when Hinterland tried this avenue. I am personally in favour of them, rolling out less updates but of higher quality. There was a reason behind it - the Story mode had been delayed several times at that point, yet the studio was handling some disaster at the time which resulted in a loss of several hundred hours of programming right before the start. So, they had to release a skeleton version of the story mode to ease the roars of the Story-focused part of community.

You called your suggestions "simple to do" but judging from your writing, you are not a game dev, just like me. But I have been around the forums for a while - and we have some non-Hinterland devs in here too, they made me realize the errors of my own ways. It is one thing to "suggest" something and whole another one is to actually program it in. Even the most simpliest designs can prove to be a difficult programming task. So, really you should not call something "simple" or "easy" chance because we have no idea how difficult it would really be. This is a very common mistake people make when suggesting their ideas and opinions, not trying to critize, just inform - been there myself, too. But you suggested some very major changes to the way the game would work - those would not be simple changes at all, perhaps simple in design, but behind them there would be a lot of programming to do. I recall a different game where one of the devs had to come forward to inform the community that a very popular, simple design suggestion the community wanted would be impossible because it would change the very core of the game, and all the artwork of the game would have to be done all over again. He ended the sentence with: To make this possible, it would be less work to actually start programming the game from the scratch.

The reminder actually made me re-think my whole comment. I am getting pretty close to falling into the old ways of becoming disrespectful. If I came out that way, I am sorry - it was not intentional. 

PS: Sorry for several re-edits - for some reason my PC is not responding well to forums today.

It would be unfair to write all of that and not touch on the suggestions you made. This is where we trully can be constructive ^_^

I dont see what your issue with Hushed River Valley is. There are plenty of instances where the bushes are placed for simply aestethic value, not to cover something up. In fact, as far as a region of a canyon goes, it was designed quite well. Sure, there are some places where the bushes hide the valuables - it is a game, afteral. This is not unlike the items that spawn inside of harvestable crates. Also, if I am not wrong, Hushed River valley is a conjuction of two general region ideas by the community - a natural deep forest, coupled with a canyon-kind of region. 

A lot of things were added into the game over the 5 years. First, it was just Mystery lake. Then Coastal, then PV, TWM, DP and so on. The game mechanics changed drastically - from the times where you would fix a gun with scrap metal and fir firewood on a workbench, to now. The old HUD was not very intuitive - and as far as I remember, it was community too who wanted it changed. First aid changed, struggles, item design and clothing system, many new items were added into the game. Used to be survival past 50 days was impossible - now you can go on indefinitedly. Which, by the way, is not really something that is the fault of the game, but more of the way people tend to play it. There is an art to playing TLD for long term. Instead of forcing yourself to follow the survival needs routine, try to appreciate the game more. Go out on trips just for the sake of watching the beautiful artwork - if you think of it less as a game where you need to constantly grind to survive, and start to appreciate the beauty of it instead, you will find out that you enjoy the long term . As for the Story mode changes - well, there are two parts of the community. It would be wrong to turn the backs on the rest of the community just cause we want more sandbox. But Hinterland always tried to balance these out - after fixing up the story mode, they started focusing on sandbox, and vice versa. 

You have some great ideas for suggestions there, and I would be happy to discuss em further in the Wish List section. Anyways, sorry if I came out too strong myself, it was not my intention.

 

Edited by Mroz4k

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4 hours ago, Mroz4k said:

That goes double for showing respect where respect is due. Your attitude towards admin was immature, and I fully agree with Ross that you lost a lot of respect from me as well by handling it so. You should seek the respect of Ross as Ross is a seasoned member of these forums, and his insight carries a lot of weight. Instead, your reaction is to dismiss his opinion as irrelevant - but wasnt that exactly what you accuse Hinterland of? Please, notice how hypocritical that response of yours is.:( 

Like i already said above, i am not here to seek anyones respect. So pls dont be mad at me if i do not go any further into that aspect :) 
i never dismissed his opinion as irrelevant, in fact i think he rather emphasized my Point by mentioning the significant Impact and Benefit a feature like mod support could have for this game and thanked him for supporting my issue.

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To briefly touch down on the essence of what Admin tried to express - the community is composed of great sea of ideas and opinions. It is virtually impossible to please everyone - as certain opinions are in direct contraindication to each other. So, the best thing Hinterland can do is try to satisfy the biggest amount of players possible. Sorry if that doesnt include you. But such is life - we dont always get what we want.

to briefly touch down on the essence of what I tried to express - i never demanded that Hinterland tries to please absolutly everyone, however I have every Right to express my criticism and share my opinion and Feelings About the game.

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One thing you most definitely need to do for future references is to get your facts straight, and also to try and look at the problem from the perspective of the ones who oppose you. For example, the changes you called "simple" are not simple in the slightest - they would be incredibly difficult to design, program and debug in a short period of time. Especially in an indie studio. 

let me repeat myself so you can get your Facts straight for future references, i answered in an ironic and definitely non combative way.  I made all my Statements in reference to a developing time of more than several years, so pls dont try to argue that I dont take time into consideration. let me also give you some example of how relatively simple and effective some changes can be. Lets take a look at the skill System, which currently gives you Poison and parasite immunity as soon as you reach cooking skill 5. This aspects affects the challenge ánd difficulty of the game in a very significant way, and simply removing that mechanic would present a significantly more challenging Gameplay for Players who are seeking for such a Challenge, while also probably not impacting those Players very much, who are Looking for a less challenging Gameplay. And they also have the opportunity to just give the Players the Option to activate or deactivate such a Change via custom mode Settings. to be fair, i am not very familiar with programming at all, but i am very sure that such a Change is not "incredibly difficult to design, program and debug". let me put it this way, by giving the Players the Options for certain changes, some idndividuals will get put in a better Situation, while no individual gets put in a worse Situation, hence the Change is pareto optimal and presents a welfare gain for the community.

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There are two types of responses a studio can make - 1st, they can roll out early concepts of things out, and then fix the issues as they arise. Or, they can keep the update under the pot and watch and fix the bugs before releasing it to general public. Hinterland chooses the latter, and rightly so. They roll out less content, but the content is fleshed out far better then most content of early updates is in the games these days.

at the current state of the gameing Industry, Hinterland Studios deserve some respect indeed. they provided a product for a very small amount of Money and very good Quality. however, more on that later.

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As for the amount of content - I have been around for 5 years, on forums for well over 3. I can safely say that 70% of all things added have been suggested by the community, in a way that it was things that were discussed over and over and over again. Which is exactly how one can determine that these are, in fact, the wishes of majority. Not because someone says so. 

ohh, i would even go further than this and say that more than 90% of the Things added to the game have been suggested by the community. but that is absolutly not my Point. I am Talking About the 90% of Things that have been suggested and have not been added. But not even them are the quintessence of my Statement, which is more about the lack of essential, widely suggested, both benefitial for Survival and Story mode, and relatively simple additions, improvements and changes to the game, always in reference to the already decently Long development time of the game.

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Lets take a look at the perspective of Hinterland together. You mentioned that Hinterland speak of wanting to add things but never really add things in the end. Why do you think that is? If you did your research first, you would find out that as an indie studio, until recently Hinterland had to lent a lot of their equipment from recording studios. So, on a lot of things they were limited by the schedules of the recording studio. It is just very recently that they hired more animators, and got their very own equipment. 
This is why the game had so little of animations in the game thus far. They were simply too expensive and too slow to make for an indie studio. There has been several setbacks on the way to the game over the years.

if anything, i think that just emphasizes my stated issues. I did not come here and started asking About new zones, new animated animals, tons of new items, more and better visuals, or some unrealistic suggestions About multiplayer concepts, etc. - no, instead i tried to provide some constructive criticism and some ideas and suggestions that can greatly improve the game in relation to the needed ressources, which additionally identify as pareto optimal changes, regardless of what part of the community someone Counts himself to.

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It is very difficult to stay in business as an indie studio with a game that is so cheap. Yet, even at glance, if you are looking with an open mind, you can see that they care deeply for the wishes of the community, and that they care. Yet, Admin is right - in the end, it is their game, and we ought to respect their decisions as well. If you stick around and pay close attention yourself to the wishes and opinions of the community, you will see that Hinterland has a habbit of taking the best parts of the ideas of the community, and integrating them into their own creative ideas. The results are sometimes incredible - like the Hushed river valley, which in my opinion came to be as a synthesis between two different region ideas that someone neatly put together to create this amazing region.

I am Aware of the fact that Hinterland is a very passionate Studio that offers a high Quality product and tries to do their best to engage with their loyal community. of Course the admin is Right, it is their product and they have absolutly evey Right to do with it whatever they want, and i am sure he felt very good to tell me so. but as you mentioned, Hinterland is a fairly small indie Studio and they have every incentive to make Profit and therefore create a satisfying product. Thats why i emphasized that i think that TLD, while being relatively succesful product, is by far not as succesful and good as it could be and is only using a Tiny bit of its full potential. As i said before, i think everyone should be interested in any form of criticism since criticism is one of the Major factors of success and the driving force for improvement.

3 hours ago, admin said:

Keeping this thread open a bit longer. Try to:

- only speak for yourself and not for a nebulous mass of fans. 

- avoid explaining how few resources something will take to add to the game

- insult other people or be combative. We can all agree or disagree without fighting. 

We have lots of players around the world with diverse opinions. We aren’t going to please everyone with every decision we make. If we have failed to please you that’s unfortunate and we’re happy you can express yourself and share what you want to see with us. 

by speaking for myself and specifying the issue i am taking About, i am Always also Talking for all those People who are related to the same issue, that is indeed very specific and has Nothing to do with a nebulous amount of fans, aswell as using the Concept of relativity to describe the amount of ressource spending seems absolutly appropriate as a tool to emphasize certain aspects. however, i will try to avoid such Things in future if they are not liked to be seen.

i hope my Response was civil enough and i am happy to express myself and share my Point of view, even if many People oppose that. As Always, i am just a Little bit surprised how fast something is considered as Fighting and being rude or combative. As a Student of economics and law i have alaways been encouraged to such discussions and arguing, and do strongly beliefe that they are esssential and productive, and one of the most significant ways to reach a superior result. so i hope this will continue.

or Maybe it is just my "german" way of adressing things

Edited by ben91

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At this point everyone has articulated their viewpoints and made good discussion out of it. Locking thread as there’s no place to go from here. 

Enjoy the holiday and Merry Christmas to all. 

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