Carter Hydro and Environs questions about how dams work?

[piddy3825]

The back side of Carter Hydro Dam is a pretty good survivable area, you get a good mix of wildlife and resources and the views can be spectacular depending on your elevation and time of day. 

So there I was tromping about Carter Hydro the other day after the update and one of the little snippets of background lore popped up regarding the dam. 

BTW...  Nice job on that game enhancement,  Hinterland!  Anyways, as I was climbing up the escarpment to the upper right hand side where there's always loot to be found, I was admiring the view from above, that got me to wondering what would it have looked like back here when the dam was still working. 

For example, how high did they have to get the water level back here in order to run those two turbines?  Looks like it could'a filled up right up to the top of the ledge or there about.  Water level probably would have had to come up at least over the rocks at the base of the dam.  That would have been a lot of water, right?    What I am really curious about is, if the dam's pipes are all frozen, wouldn't the water just keep filling up the reservoir until it finally breached the dam?  I'm assuming that water is still flowing into this basin under the ice sheet, or is everything frozen solid down to the river bed?  

and if anybody knows a route where you can get to the top of the dam, would love to hear about it.  Thanks for reading and your comments and thoughts always appreciated.

...*disclaimer, not my pic, so thanks google images.

 

 

 

 

 

[Ice Hole]

10 hours ago, piddy3825 said:

the top of the dam, would love to hear about it. 

Well serendipity streaks again.  It just happen that I was checking out some of my k'imdii avenues to make certain the ML ones are still valid.

There is a hidden cave that I have highlighted and from there is an avenue for Long Dark Rocky Mountain Goats to cross and gain access to the cliff that is pictured on the right hand side.  In a version long ago I was able to access the Carter Dam (and avoid the wolf that spawns near the train bridge) by crossing over the dam.  Just went back to test it and still has the same fix from before.  BEWARE!  KILLWALL.

p.s. i do not like killwalls.  very chessy way to die.  Literally walking just before the concrete and then being told died from injuries while falling.

[Ice Hole]

Here is the video from version 1.42

 

Is this not a terrible way for an avid Long Dark Rocky Mountain Goat to die?

[Ice Hole]

Just made it again!

 

A FESTIVUS Miracle

[hozz1235]

Fairly easy place to get to where you found the kill-wall (surprised they put one there).  I've done some serious Mt. Goatin' and have yet to hit one. 

My latest route:  Milton, zone transition to ML, go towards Milton (through the canyon with the waterfall) and as soon as the vista opens up, goat the Right wall (vs. going left down the path).  You can eventually get over the ridge and drop down by the bus.

[Ice Hole]

That is what I was referring to in another post.  I had found a shortcut from the crash site that goes right to the cave to ML.  Too bad an achievement is needed now.  I never even got to try it out.

[Ice Hole]

37 minutes ago, hozz1235 said:

I've done some serious Mt. Goatin' and have yet to hit one.

There is another doozy of a kill wall if you take the high road.

There are trees above the route shown and cause death upon contact.

[Ice Hole]

 

On 12/20/2018 at 1:35 AM, piddy3825 said:

Water level probably would have had to come up at least over the rocks at the base of the dam.  That would have been a lot of water, right?    What I am really curious about is, if the dam's pipes are all frozen, wouldn't the water just keep filling up the reservoir until it finally breached the dam?  I'm assuming that water is still flowing into this basin under the ice sheet, or is everything frozen solid down to the river bed?  

 

Have been thinking about the water flow direction. 

Seems to me that it should drain Mystery lake.  This is the higher ground and the Winding River flows down to Pleasant Valley.  If the water is flowing form Mystery Lake than there is not much of a reservoir for the dam.  The high water cannot wash out that bridge.  It is odd to see a dam without a large reservoir so I am not really certain.  This is mountainous terrain so dam construction might differ.  This type of dam might be free flowing and not backing up the water to high levels.  Mystery Lake becomes the reservoir.

 

[s7mar7in]

10 hours ago, Ice Hole said:

if the dam's pipes are all frozen, wouldn't the water just keep filling up the reservoir

This question opens another topic for an interesting discussion.
The seismic activity effect is unclear; "...the hydrological changes to the Mystery Lake area in the 1980's..." may add more questions than answers. And the effect of the loss of electric power begs the question: What was/is the "failed Safe" status of the dam control gate? 
Lore spoilers from TLD Wiki Page:

 

 

The dam was constructed on the Carter River in the 1960s. It was engineered and financed by the industrial magnate Richard Carter, who planned to use it to power a small town he was going to build for his mining workers. Due to seismic activity, and a drop in the price of coal and copper in the late 1960s, the project was nearly abandoned. There were attempts in the 1980s to modernize the dam and bring it back online, but hydrological changes to the Mystery lake area, and public support for a newly created Mystery Lake Provincial Park, resulted in the dam being "shut down for good" in the late 1990s.^[1]

Following The Collapse, there was an unsuccessful attempt to re-open the dam, led by the CEO of Carter Hydro Energy, Robert Clarke.^[2] A skeleton crew was working in the dam, but were trapped inside by eco-activists from the Forest Talkers. The workers were reportedly trapped inside the dam for days, before mediators were able to extract them. While the incident was not violent, it resulted in the dam remaining closed, and has been used as an example by the Forest Talkers to validate their continued work.^[1][

 

 

[Ice Hole]

 

27 minutes ago, s7mar7in said:

The seismic activity effect is unclear; "...the hydrological changes to the Mystery Lake area in the 1980's..." may add more questions than answers.

The water from Milton flows into the Forlorn Muskeg.  Maybe the hydrological changes had something to do with water flowing from FM into Mystery Lake area and then to the Carter Dam.  Thanks for the lore spoiler I have never read that before.

 

edit :  I am thinking that the CHD replaced a waterfall.

[s7mar7in]

On ‎12‎/‎20‎/‎2018 at 1:35 AM, piddy3825 said:

how high did they have to get the water level back here in order to run those two turbines?

Thought this image looked similar to your screenshot @piddy3825, Carter Environs might have looked a lot like this.
During the Spring the Carter Hydro dam would adjust flow keeping the river level slightly below the ML RR Bridge.
What do you think my friend.

[piddy3825]

46 minutes ago, s7mar7in said:

Thought this image looked similar to your screenshot @piddy3825, Carter Environs might have looked a lot like this.
During the Spring the Carter Hydro dam would adjust flow rate, thus keeping the river level slightly below the RR Bridge.
What do you think my friend.

Indeed it does.  but since this is a downstream view of a dams spillway, how high in the back do you think that water had to be?  Or is the conceptual artwork of the dam in the game perhaps backwards as compared to the intended direction of the waterflow?  

[piddy3825]

16 hours ago, Ice Hole said:

 

Have been thinking about the water flow direction. 

Seems to me that it should drain Mystery lake.  This is the higher ground and the Winding River flows down to Pleasant Valley.  If the water is flowing form Mystery Lake than there is not much of a reservoir for the dam.  The high water cannot wash out that bridge.  It is odd to see a dam without a large reservoir so I am not really certain.  This is mountainous terrain so dam construction might differ.  This type of dam might be free flowing and not backing up the water to high levels.  Mystery Lake becomes the reservoir.

 

Nice Pics by the way.  Showing off those mountain goat skills with this shot from on top of the dam!  Outstanding!

Yeah, given the direction of all the waterfalls and the log jams in and along those watercourses, I get the distinct impression that the water is flowing from Pleasant Valley into the reservoir and exiting the dam with a downstream flow towards Mystery Lake.  

[Ice Hole]

2 hours ago, piddy3825 said:

the water is flowing from Pleasant Valley into the reservoir and exiting the dam with a downstream flow towards Mystery Lake.

The idea of having a reservoir for a dam to me is proper.  The space on the winding river side kinda does look like a reservoir.  I need further investigation.

That is why I went into the bowels of Carter Hydro Dam.

Went through CHD Upper Level and these look like the generators.

But what are those fans on the right.  Is it for exhaust?

Onto the CHD Lower level and these look to me like the water turbines.  The axle shafts driving the generators above.

 

The water from the upper level drops to the lower level.  This is where the water spins the turbines.

The distance the water is dropping does not seem that extensive.  Six flights of stairs in game represents about eight metres.

The drop when looking from this image seems longer than eight metres..

 

The turbines in the lower part of CHD could be just the top of them.  The turbines might be long and could extend down to this level.  That does increase potential energy and might explain away not having a sizable reservoir in Mystery Lake.  I am not making any assertions these are just my thoughts.

 

[piddy3825]

@Ice Hole, I think you are  correct in the assumption that the turbine shafts are long enough to extend down to this level.  I presume that the lowest water level would still produce sufficient pressure to spin the turbine blades in order to reduce power.  I think that in this case, the higher the water level the greater the energy output from the turbines because of the faster water a result of the pressure build up in the reservoir.  

I would think that those turbines are still spinning and producing electricity as evidenced by the electrification of the dam during the Aurora events.  Presuming that if the dam was not generating power at all, then even during an Aurora, you would never find the plant energized?  Or am I missing something?

[CathyElksun]

I went through a door and ended up in Winding River... the door is locked behind me. I've now made my way to Pleasant Valley, which seems to have been named on the same basis as Greenland. Is there a way back to Mystery Lake? I have a lot of animal skins sitting in the Trapper's Cabin which will be well and truly cured by now... 

[s7mar7in]

9 hours ago, CathyElksun said:

I went through a door and ended up in Winding River... the door is locked behind me. I've now made my way to Pleasant Valley, which seems to have been named on the same basis as Greenland.

Welcome to the forum @CathyElksun, and you are so correct that the name of the valley is deliberately deceiving, (Iceland / Greenland).
The exit at the Winding River side of the dam is kind of a big part of the struggle and discovery...looking for a way back into the dam. 
There are notes that are in game giving hints to the Carter Hydro workers; a note of caution that it will be a long walk as the elevator will be out of service so if you search like you would to break into an abandoned building you may find a solution.

Spoiler Hint:

 

you can walk carefully across the concrete face of the dam on winding river side...

TLD logic hint:

 

broken windows are why the lower dam is so cold...

Good luck my friend.

[Ice Hole]

9 hours ago, CathyElksun said:

I went through a door and ended up in Winding River... the door is locked behind me.

The first TLD trick that trolled me in my early days playing this game.  It is like a ritual for the new TLD initiates.  Step through a one way door and into a blizzard.  That is how I remember it.  Thought I was being smart too by using the door as a save point.  The plan was to exit and re-enter.  Supper was ready for me and now I am stuck outside in a blizzard.  Crawled across that narrow ledge cursing cause of the fear of perma-death and the hours of tribulation invested into the character.

There has been much talk about that door and if it should be one way or not.  When I was a new player to TLD I might have agreed to make the door accessible.  Now being experienced I look to that door with fond terrifying vertigo memories.

9 hours ago, piddy3825 said:

I would think that those turbines are still spinning and producing electricity as evidenced by the electrification of the dam during the Aurora events.  Presuming that if the dam was not generating power at all, then even during an Aurora, you would never find the plant energized?  Or am I missing something?

The electrification of the dam I explain to myself is via the electrical transformers that step up the voltage for transmission in conjunction with power lines .  Theses power transmission lines are kilometres long and are being electrified by the aurora.  This voltage over a long length of conductor induces a small current (farmers used to string power wires parallel to high power lines that were beside their property and steal electricity).  This current powers the secondary side and induces electricity into the primary.  The turn ratio to each coil of wires (primary/secondary) can increase the current while producing a lower voltage.  Or it can happen the other way around and create a higher voltage with a lower current. 

This low current (aurora induced electricity into power lines)  is being stepped up to a high voltage and that is how you are getting electrocuted.  This could explain where the power to electrocute is coming from without having to spin the turbines.

[CathyElksun]

10 hours ago, s7mar7in said:

The exit at the Winding River side of the dam is kind of a big part of the struggle and discovery...l

Too late! I died in Pleasant Valley anyway. I found a nice cosy barn at Three Strikes Farm and had a nice fire going, then I filled myself with pork and beans and herbal tea and woke up hours before dawn with the fire out and a blizzard going. Out of firewood, could I go and chop some? No, I was already freezing and even if I could find anything out there I would die chopping wood. I snuggled into my bedroll and faded into the long dark. 

I have learned my lesson: always carry some firewood and coffee, just in case! 25 days in Mystery Lake and 7 days in Pleasant Valley until I became a Frozen Corpse for the next survivor to find and loot! 

[Ice Hole]

Spent some time in the Ravine.  Took some more pictures of Carter Hydro Dam.  The first water fall when walking into the Ravine from Mystery Lake gave me the inspiration.

The question of a reservoir still hot on my mind.  Could this be where the water for Carter Hydro Dam comes from?  Perhaps this water fall is connected to Raven Falls.

Back over to Carter Hydro Dam.

Was the water transported via pipe connected to Carter Hydro Dam?

 

From the other side of CHD.

Is the CHD connected into the mountain.  What kind of construction is this?  Would the seismic activity put a halt on this type of construction? 

Could water be diverted from the Ravine via pipes to the interior of Carter Hydro Dam? Could those be the pipes that are frozen?

 

The whole picture I am entertaining in my mind is:

Some of the water coming from the Ravine was being diverted into Carter Hydro Dam to power the turbines.  Any excess water could be diverted towards Mystery Lake turning it into a reservoir or slough.  The frozen pipes are preventing water from being diverted to the turbines inside CHD.   The falling water kinetic energy spin the turbines and transfer energy with a large axel that spin the electrical generators.  The water that would have been diverted is now flowing into the Ravine and over the water fall pictured above.

Electrical power from the aurora event is energizing the power lines and back feeding the transformers.  The power lines are acting like inductors and transfer magnetic field energy into electrical energy.  The transformers that would normally take the voltage from the generators and step it up to a higher voltage for power transmission pose a threat of electrocution to Long Dark characters that expose themselves to the wrong side of a power wire.

 

One of the best part of The Long Dark is the immersion.  Hope this helps.

 

Happy Boxing Day!

[piddy3825]

@Ice Hole, wow, you took this to a whole new level.  Especially like the pics from the top of the "roof" of CHD.

I, however, still think that the Aurora doesn't actually energize anything, but merely acts as an agent to allow the continued transmission of power when the aurora is active.  I see the aurora more like an on and off switch.  Power is off when the aurora is absent, and power is restored when the aurora is active.

Did you ever see the short lived tv show called "Revolution?"  The premise of this short lived post apocalyptic scifi series, was that scientists experimenting on nano robot technology for the military, created nanites whose programming was elegantly simple, to consume electrical energy and replicate.  The idea behind this tech was that the military could launch a missile at an enemies powergrid and the nanites would consume their electrical production and continue replicating until the nanites were able to consumer the entire output of the enemy powerplant essentially rendering it unoperational.  ...they didn't program an off switch in these nanites so subsequently nanites reproduced out of control until all power production in the world came to a standstill plunging the world into darkness.  

[Ice Hole]

6 hours ago, piddy3825 said:

Did you ever see the short lived tv show called "Revolution?" 

Have not seen that but the premise sounds interesting.  I studied a little of the subject Micro Electrical  Mechanical Systems technology way back and always find it fascinating.

For me this electrical power creation has similar characteristics of the Carrington event back in 1859.

Wiki : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_storm_of_1859

Telegraph systems all over Europe and North America failed, in some cases giving telegraph operators electric shocks.[18] Telegraph pylons threw sparks.[19] Some telegraph operators could continue to send and receive messages despite having disconnected their power supplies

The sun was going through its grand solar maximum.  This caused flux prominence along with a major corona mass ejection that played havoc with the new telegraph wires and equipment.  The CME created magnetic flux that induced a current into the wires.  The Long Dark aurora event is an indication that magnetic flux is moving.  The idea that the flux is coming from the earth core instead of the sun was addressed somewhere else in the forum.  The closer the flux is to the conductors the stronger the induced power.

[s7mar7in]

23 hours ago, Ice Hole said:

The question of a reservoir still hot on my mind.

The region maps are not yet well connected and this allows for some missing information and much speculation.
However, all the river directions of flow do seem to be correct, (from mainland toward the ocean).

Strong Caution of Map Spoiler; There is no need to look at this content if you dislike using maps of TLD:

 

The Carter Hydro project is old technology that may have become a combination of two or more different hydroelectric dam types.

• Flow of river system, (Pipes from a river intake to a river outflow).
• Reservoir system, (Flooding of lands / environs to create head pressure above a river outflow).
• Pumped peak demand system, (Turbine Generator during peak / Turbine as a pump and Generator as a motor during off-peak hours).

The direction of flow may therefore be less critical, (the dam's artwork in-game is lacking obvious trash screens / gates / level controls).
System diagram posters used as in-game artwork seem to indicate multiple operational configurations, (overlapping / combined technologies).

These questions are great fun to study while exploring in-game my friend.

[Ice Hole]

Looking at the in game map has got me thinking about the water coming from the Ravine side.   There is a waterfall in the Ravine close to Carter Hydro dam.

Walking from ML to CH the place marked Falls is the first waterfall on the left.  Here it is pictured.

 

 

This next picture is from above the dam in Mystery Lake and Winding river would be below and to the left. 

 

Here is another picture taken from Winding River side.  The twin peaks can be seen in the distance.

There is another waterfall further to the left.  That adds up to a significant amount of potential kinetic energy.  A reservoir could be placed in the middle to regulate the flow going to Carter dam.

It looks to me that there could have been a reservoir that was planned to be located above the Carter dam.  If the water coming from the twin peaks is currently connected to Carter dam then excess could be diverted towards Mystery lake.  In the off hours the water from Mystery lake could be pumped up into the reservoir.  

Hinterland mentioned somewhere that these two maps (Ravine and Winding river) and other transitions maps might be expanded upon.  I certainly would not mind more terrain to explore and have it seamless too.

[Ice Hole]

On 12/27/2018 at 11:21 AM, s7mar7in said:

(the dam's artwork in-game is lacking obvious trash screens / gates / level controls).
System diagram posters used as in-game artwork seem to indicate multiple operational configurations, (overlapping / combined technologies).

What I am just noticing is the interior and the way CHD looks like from WR side as compared to ML side. 

There are windows on both sides of the dam in Winding River.

This Carter Hydro dam is looking more like a police public call box!

Walking the interior is weird too.

Where do these door go?