Yang_Tomoe

The travois as a concept and an easy way to include it in the game

18 posts in this topic

6 sticks

8 gut {For cordage}

knife, hatchet, or saw to craft

allows a single person to carry 136kg /300lbs with dramatically reduced effort through bush in the winter. Even in deep snow.

 

Hi my name is Yang_Tomoe! I live in Canada. I have been a scout leader and survival camper in some of the most remote parts of Canada. While i prefer to camp in late summer I have had the misfortune to camp in some of the most winter conditions you can think of. Think -50 in the middle of the woods a week trek to the nearest road.

 

I am here to talk about the Travois. I can't imagine any bush pilot who would not know some basic bushcraft, and the Travois is certainly one of those things that can be made by almost anyone with ease. It seems to me that our main hero is the kind of chap to have join the boy scouts as a young man. Certainly i would expect anyone with a lick of sense to figure it out for themselves eventually.  Please indulge me and watch the following vids and read till the end. I realize its a bit of a journey so thanks in advance if you decide to travel with me.

-

if anyone can find the vid that follows where he moves the camp on his Travois please post it in this thread...i cant seem to find it. Anyways here it is with a more serious load.

This dude kinda looks like Wil Mackenzie right? Am i wrong? What do you guys think? XD but yea here is a slab of stone. This next one is real basic, and probably the one that would be used by Will.

now if he were a gearhead or greasemonky at all he might look around and discover WHEELS! at which point we have something more like this:

of course as soon as you figure out how to free up a few wheels from the local cars or from broken aircraft parts and put them on a frame....well now you have a pullcart. And i bet if you stick to the roads and the like; you could pull a heck of a lot of weight! I really don't think that it would take all that long before Will would add a wood stove and the like to a pull-cart either. Just grab one from an ice-fishing hut, easy peasy. I mean if you are going for the 500 day challenge you need to keep in mind that's just over a year of nothing but winter.  It is not unreasonable that with the tools at hand and the resources and the NEED experienced by all the players to move larger loads, to have a safe portable shelter, that SOME sort of solution might present itself to someone as resourceful as Will Mackenzie. but wait there is more.......

.

I am pretty sure i have seen a dolly in a gas station or somewhere.....that dolly could help carry a load, its made of steel sooo super durable. Just let us interact with it and drag it behind us with a load on it. Heck strap on one of those filing cabinets to a dolly and you have a pull-cart with storage bins! Best of all you don't need to add any new models to the game! There! Problem solved! Everyone happy?

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Welcome to the boards!

Just wanted to setup the board expectation first, but one of the first concerns that a lot of people bring up is, will it break the game? For me that means, if this is implemented will people be able to "cheese" their way through the game.

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I think that can be managed with math.

http://www.backcountrychronicles.com/travois-game-drag/

As long as the weight of the device is low the advantage is great, if however the higher storage area's are used then the mechanical advantage is less. Likewise as the terrain leaves the level so too do you lose mechanical advantage.

Add in slippery conditions and you just might give yourself an injury that could range from a simple strain all the way to a broken arm or leg in the most extreme  situations.

Edited by Yang_Tomoe

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Heck if you use the Travois in stick form and fall on it the wrong way you could even impale yourself on it.....ick

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16 minutes ago, Yang_Tomoe said:

I think that can be managed with math.

http://www.backcountrychronicles.com/travois-game-drag/

As long as the weight of the device is low the advantage is great, if however the higher storage area's are used then the mechanical advantage is less. Likewise as the terrain leaves the level so too do you lose mechanical advantage.

Add in slippery conditions and you just might give yourself an injury that could range from a simple strain all the way to a broken arm or leg in the most extreme  situations.

Just another expectation, I have seen in the past resistance to ideas that would cause an RNG influenced death as opposed to a death that you could've prevented in the game. Right now the common complaint is that the character can get sprained way too easily, if this gets RNG'd and you break bones with the same frequency as sprains, you can expect a lot of resistance.

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Well I would expect that the DEVs would handle the balance and game mechanics. I am just saying that in real life there are downsides and risks. I am honestly surprised that the moose attack does not just kill you ....same thing with the wolves to be honest. Why would they stop? Oh sure a bear might get bored and walk away, but wolves? Enraged Moose? I don't think so.

.. as far as rng injury i dunno.....

But i think people need to remember that really honestly there is no such thing as random in a computer game. So the DEVs would have to decide at which point to add a risk of injury to the use of items like this. Obviously its unlikely that you would get a serious injury on a road just pulling a dolly behind you that is empty. I think it is just as unlikely that you would be able to escape injury of some kind if you decided to pull several hundred pounds of equipment up a steep, snowy, incline. So yea i think some common sense would have to be used by the programmers but as long as they use the math here : http://www.backcountrychronicles.com/travois-game-drag/ or something like it, things will work out fine. and even if they don't...just remember they can always change it back or make adjustments.

Edited by Yang_Tomoe

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Hi! Welcome to the forums. Hope you will enjoy your stay here! 

Gotta say - I dont think there is a big need for you to sell this idea to us. We all have been waiting for something like this for years now. Frankly, I dont know if we will get it, and if we do, probably in a while - I dont think the idea of "adding it" is much of a problem of concept, as much as it is a problem of actually coding it. Nothing even remotedly similar exists in TLD, so this would likely be a mechanic entirely new. And that will take time.

Naturally, for the game balance, this would have to be significantly nerfed - for starters, it needs to use saplings in its design. To both limit the accesibility early on, and to make player choose between potential bows, or the sled.

Naturally I expect the weight capacity of this here sled would be some 45 kg, which would slow the player down by 15%. Its drawbacks would be the fact that dragging it up the hill would make it more difficult and exhausting. Else, dragging it would allow the player to carry on bigger amount of gear at expense of exhaustion, and also safety - because while dragging along the sleds, you would not be able to use your hands, so cant draw a weapon quickly enough - making it somewhat of a risk.
Repairs could be done with the renewable resources, though - to limit the use of saplings. 

All in all, I think this is a decent idea and would love to work it out for the best, still, I am not optimistic about the prospect of Hinterland, taking on such a complex new design.

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Bah they don't need to limit it's ability to function for "Game Balance"!

 

The whole idea is to make the game more "Balanced" by adding the ability to carry more weight. It's not like i am asking the DEVs to add in an AK-47 or a chainsaw! All i want is a piece of tech that predates the wheel.....

 

Hardly game breaking to let us move an entire moose in one trip. In fact as far as gameplay and enjoy-ability goes, i think you are going to be hard pressed to find very many people who are going to support nerfing something we all need, before we even get it. Now i agree that 500lbs might be a bit excessive. However i don't think another 40lbs is reasonable either.

 

Also don't forget that while you would be able to carry 500lbs of gear with the best possible version, it's not without risk of personal injury to use it fully loaded like that. 

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HAVE HOPE!

With the death of TellTale games and Capcom; Hinterland games gets a fresh infusion of talent! Put your troubles behind you because with talent like this, The Long Dark is sure to have all sorts of new content! I bet they are scouring the forums right now looking for new stuff to add that will peak interest in the game!

So show your enthusiasm and it may be rewarded!

Now is your time!

Strike the iron while it's hot! Let's make this a hot topic right now and show them how much we want this! 

Do you want this or something like it?

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Like @Mroz4ksaid the biggest problem here isn't the concept, it's how to make it work in a satisfactory way. I'm actually rather confident that if it could be done "easily" as you say we'd have it.

About that: Saying that something is "easily" done without actually expert knowledge of "how" it is done is something that has a pretty big upset factor to it. That's like saying building a car is easy and not actually having a clue how to actually build the engine. That's not to discard or discredit your rather sound reasoning why something like this "should" be in the game. It's to raise the awareness many new members here lack when it comes to how actually complex such a thing is from the development side.

The other side of course is balance. That you can't just haul half a ton of stuff around with you is actually part of the "choices" you have to make, and it's good we have those choices to make, in my opinion. It gives meaning and value to your things - which you find in silly abundance unless you play Interloper.

6 hours ago, Yang_Tomoe said:

I bet they are scouring the forums right now looking for new stuff to add that will peak interest in the game!

I'm pretty sure they have enough ideas without that. If you just look at the initial kickstarter campaign video the one thing @Raphael van Lieropand his fellow creators do not lack is vision and ideas.

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12 hours ago, Yang_Tomoe said:

The whole idea is to make the game more "Balanced" by adding the ability to carry more weight.

Welcome to the forum my friend, @Yang_Tomoe.

Your enthusiasm for this topic is wonderful and intelligently presented, well done.

Please know that your ideas are simple and logical in real life, but in the game, we often find a new definition of what is simple.

This post reminds me of similar discussions in this forum, asking that we be allowed to drop and/or pickup backpacks. The development team at Hinterland explained that “…the players inventory is  built into the game character and that to change the pack to a separate droppable item would require a great deal of work in terms of game design…”, (paraphrased for this purpose of this discussion, and I am rather limited in my understanding of the ‘Unity’ software used to develop this game).

In support of your great idea and great presentation; let us work together to identify some in game benefits to the creation of a new weight bearing drag device, (droppable backpack/inventory).

  • There have been many requests for an improved system for hauling firewood.
  • Many have requested a better way of moving a cache of items from far flung regions of the game world back to a main base camp.
  • Others are looking for a way to create a simple game-drag to move harvested animals.

I think the development team at Hinterland is listening, and you have certainly provided an excellent presentation of an idea that could fit well and add a lot to this wonderful game.

Stay warm my friend, (OA). :coffee:

Edited by s7mar7in

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Thanks   s7mar7in    your post was awesome! It was well constructed, kind, informative, and contained constructive criticism.  

 

It seems however, that i May have inadvertently triggered some people with my use of the word "easy". 

 

I understand that game development is a great deal of work. I understand that it takes a HUGE number of hours of work to make the smallest of changes and have that change remain stable. I understand that every object must be created first and that there are many factors about what can and what can't work in a game.

 

with that said; please understand that recycling an object is much easier than having to create it from scratch. Many of the suggestions require new models be made. So from a game development standpoint, (while it is certainly still filled with work), by reusing objects they already have as an asset it is LESS work and therefore "easier". 

 

Furthermore while many posts have asked for increased weight tolerance in a backpack; just as many of you have pointed out that carrying a lot of weight in a survival situation is unadvisable for many reasons.

 

My post on the other hand was an attempt to demonstrate that there is a real world solution to the problem of carrying large loads through the woods that is used and has been taught for longer than the wheel has been around. I also felt that it was important to show how "easy" it is to move a huge load as you add levels of tech to it. 

 

Please also bear in mind that saying that it takes a lot of work is not a valid argument to include an idea or not. All game design is a lot of work. Heck ALL work is a lot of work THATS why it's called WORK! Now the DEVs who make this game are not afraid of this kind of work or they would not be working in this line of work, and as long as they want to continue to make money they are going to have to work, so they might as well work on this. Right? I mean why not work on something you love? You would rather they just said OH NO TOO MUCH WORK and went to get burger flipper jobs? HECK NO! If i were them i would look at all these ideas on the forums and go THANK GOD FOR ALL THIS JOB SECURITY! People still WANT us to make changes! People are still buying the game and new players are online even now! and maybe they feel a little better about themselves knowing that their game has brought so much joy to so many people. and maybe they include the travois just because it would be awesome! Haven't you ever been willing to go that extra mile to make something you loved better?

 

so so so

 

Yes i said it was easy, but i was referring to shifting a load many times higher than was thought possible when you only consider carrying weight rather than dragging it. To be honest i am not surprised by the comments about balance etc.  What did surprise me were the comments like:

" About that: Saying that something is "easily" done without actually expert knowledge of "how" it is done is something that has a pretty big upset factor to it. That's like saying building a car is easy and not actually having a clue how to actually build the engine. "

This poster assumes to know a great deal about me! Shocking! Do we know each other? I don't think i know you.

 

As for the knowledge to build a travois? The knowledge is more common than you might think. The army teaches it. Boy scouts teaches it. It is commonly used in many places on the earth every day as a tool to shift loads. The real question is would Will MacKenzie know about a travois? How about Astrid? With Will working as a bush pilot I am going to go out on a limb here and assume that he would. I am willing to bet that it is likely that Astrid would also know about it. In which case it WOULD be easy for either of them to shift a load of 300lbs with the tools he has at hand. Easy to program? Heck no! Sadly very little WORK is easy. That however, does not mean it is not worth doing. More often than not you will find as you go through life that the things that come easy were never worth it, and the things that you had to WORK the hardest for are the most Valuable. 

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I feel like something like the travois is assumed while traveling in game. The game allows the player to carry over 50kg/110lbs while still able to walk long distances. This is well beyond the carrying weight of any backpacker. There is no sign in game of the special military packs that are made to hold 35kg of gear, and no reason to believe Will has anything like that on hand when he is stranded. He is in first person, probably pulling a sled behind him. It’s not like he has 20kg of coal in his pockets.

 

Carrying capacity as a mechanic is really hard to balance in a game like this, because volume and item value are as important as mass in game. That’s why feathers weigh 1kg/100 and three old man’s beards weighing .01 kg each make a dressing that weighs .1kg. It’s not meant to be realistic. It’s meant to be a fun balance. 

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5 hours ago, Fuccimama said:

I feel like something like the travois is assumed while traveling in game.

Welcome to the forums @Fuccimama. this is an excellent contribution to this discussion my friend.
The concept of adding the weight carrying capacity of a drag may not need to be animated in-game, (as you say, it could be assumed).
At the same time, the idea of crafting a drag-device for transporting heavier loads than the current game limit may add to the game.

The moose satchel is not an animated part of the character, it is an asset in the game world and in the game menus for inventory and crafting.

Perhaps a new "accessory item" called the "drag" could provide a weight carrying buff if it were first crafted, (when not in use it could be dropped).

  • Encumbrance Limit [Backpack], (No Penalty): 30 kg / 66 lbs.
  • Encumbrance Limit [Backpack + Moose Satchel], (No Penalty): 35 kg / 77 lbs.
  • Encumbrance Limit [Backpack + 10], (No Climbing/Sprinting): 40 kg / 88 lbs.
  • Encumbrance Limit [Backpack +20], (Crawl Speed): 50 kg / 110 lbs.
  • Encumbrance Limit [Backpack + 30], (Cannot move): 60 kg / 132 lbs.
  • Encumbrance Limit [Backpack, {30} + Moose Satchel, {15} + Drag, {90}], (No Climbing/Sprinting): 135 kg / 298 lbs.

images3BG8ZGDH.jpg.8e75936ce969499430203d9c45c4682e.jpg

It feels that there should be an endurance limit while using the drag to move a heavy load/quartered bear...any ideas are welcome. :coffee:

Edited by s7mar7in

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I'm with Yang on this. I'd love to be able to do carryable containers. It'd be cool to be able to have multiple moose satchels with different loads in them for doing different things, like knife bow arrows for hunting, and hatchet hacksaw for looting places like Hibernia or the Dam. Grab the loot satchel and when you get back it's got your hatchet and hacksaw and a big pile of metal in it. The travois would just be a further extension of that, with ramifications for movement... no sprinting unless you drop the travois, and taking it up into the hills risks having it overturn and spill as well as beating the crap out of your movement speed. Modelling that could be challenging, but certainly should be doable. That kind of thing could add a lot to the game.

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