Camping: Prepare makeshift bedding

[Mroz4k]

Hello, my fellow community members!

Majority of the credit for this idea goes to @k0s0ff, who came up with this concept and approached me several days ago with this concept. After some discussions via private messages we worked out the balancing for it, and he kindly asked me to put together this post in English on his behalf. And I was very happy to do so  
I believe this idea is balanced out and could prove to be very valuable in the game.

New ability under camping on the Action wheel: 
Prepare makeshift bedding
Aspects:
Requires 12 sticks, 3 cloth 
Can be harvested: 9 sticks, 2 cloth (and less with a lower condition)
Deteriorates condition the same way as snow shelter. 
Can be repaired, with 2 sticks, and once condition 50% or lower, with 1 cloth and 6 sticks.
Can only be BUILD in CAVES.
No feels-like temperature bonus.



Notes: This option can only be built in indoor or outdoor caves. It creates the kind of bed that can be found in the cave at the beginning of Story mode/sandbox plane crash cave at Mountain Town location. This would create a reasonable option for resting at certain points in the wilderness without Bedroll, making it a great option for people who forgot, lost, or simply did not acquire bedroll yet. It acts in a similar way like Snow shelter but uses the warmth bonus of a cave instead. Should add some variety to wilderness survival options besides a snow shelter. Construction would take time and resources, and deconstruction even more time and a permanent loss of some resources along the way. The benefit is easier craftable option to sleep without a bedroll or access to bed. I think Interloper is difficult plenty enough - and the survival in it should not be limited by a spawn of a bedroll or not. 

All opinions and critique is welcome. If you have any further ideas to balance this, please share them.

[BareSkin]

I, for once have absolutely no critics. I think there will be a devs problem with detecting when you are "in a cave", why not making it available everywhere? Unsheltered sleeping is basically gambling you life anyway. No being able to sleep anywhere in crappy condition (less recovery, no FL bonus) has always been a huge flaw IMO.

I'd add the possibility to use pelts (cured and uncured, maybe 5 rabbits?) as alternative to cloth, since cloth is much useful already (mending, torch, tools, bandages) and rabbit pelts quite not once you've made gloves an hat.

[Mroz4k]

Thanks for the feedback.  I wouldn't like to see it done anywhere as there are places where you could feasibly place a campfire and made it windproof, which would turn this bedding into a complete alternative to bedroll and I don't think that would be a good idea. Could also make snow shelters less relevant. To give an example of such area - ruined building at the felling clearcut at ML between CO and TH. Or the ruins by the rope to TWM. 

I like the idea of rabbit pelts but for the accessibility early on,  I think cloth is still a better option. I wouldn't mind if there would be a bigger variety to what it could be made out of - I can imagine clicking to build it would lead to a prompt to "choose your preferred materials" - but that may be complicated to code for the time being. 

I even though of stuff like old man's beard instead of cloth. 

As for what is a cave and what is not - I don't reckon it would be terribly difficult. Even outdoor caves have an indoor part to them. If the requirement was indoor area and second requirement would be to be located in specific coordinates where caves are, or inside indoor locations considered as caves, it would work. 

Otherwise thanks again for the feedback. 

[Guest jeffpeng]

I like the idea as it fixes a few harsh interloper spawns and makes a lot more games "viable" - plus it's just "cool".

7 hours ago, BareSkin said:

I think there will be a devs problem with detecting when you are "in a cave"

I don't think so. There is a very clear "inside but not indoors" condition that makes guts and pelts cure while still allowing fires to be made. But I don't think that it would be "op" if that bed could be placed basically anywhere. The snow shelter still has a very distinct advantage - automatic wind shelter and +18°C - which is warm enough to sleep in early in the game even without a fire. If you really wanna drop a bed in the middle of a forest .... well, you'll find the lack of wisdom in that soon enough.

I personally would prefer a more survivalist approach to the building materials. Cloth is hard to come by in some regions, and to get some either requires you to leave the region (which can take 2-3 days in HRV or TWM, depending on spawn) or to cannibalize your already scarce clothing. I know there are some regions that are overflowing with cloth (ML, PV, CH and especially MT) but in stark contrast there are some that basically have none (TWM, HRV, FM).

Plus .... look at the snow shelter. It's something that on lower difficulties you do not need (just as the bed would be) and something on higher difficulties you cannot afford in the regions you need it in. Making cloth part of the equation would taint the bed with the same problem. So, in a perfect Snowball's world there'd be an option to build one of these just with sticks (and cattail heads ?), maybe even without a warmth bonus to compensate for that, and one with maybe 3 rabbit and 1 deer skin for a proper +5°C bed. Both rabbits and deer (carcasses) are easy to come by, but take time to cure.

Also both of them wouldn't make either of the bedrolls obsolete. The bedrolls .... you can just place. The bed you need to build, which takes time (equals exposure/risk) and resources you need to bring. The opportunity cost is infinitely higher. Like I said: This would make the bed probably be a rarely used thing - just as the snow shelter is something that probably only gets used on higher difficulties. But there are a lot of things like that in the game. I guess the best example is the warmth bonus from beverages and canned food. In lower difficulties it's a funny little buff. On Interloper it becomes essential sooner rather than later.

What I personally like most about this is that it would be an important cornerstone to true "outside" survival. Combine this bed and bushcrafting, and you basically have all you need to achieve your fantasy of living in the wild.

[k0s0ff]

The skin of a deer and three skins of rabbits. I think this is a good addition to our idea.

[Vinceofpyrenees]

Wonderful idea.

[BareSkin]

10 hours ago, Mroz4k said:

I like the idea of rabbit pelts but for the accessibility early on

2 hours ago, jeffpeng said:

but take time to cure.

In my mind there was no need for curing the pelts. Honestly skinning 5 rabbits (floor/body interface) and harvesting 1 deer skin (body/air interface) in early game is not that impossible. It's literally doable on day 1.

I agree with Jeff about location: anyway people would build it in caves, that the best solution since you are virtually always near a cave.

 

[Mroz4k]

I also liked the idea of caves because of the possibility of "nesting" at a bear den as a part of the harsh learning curve for new players. In a way, dens are sometimes not visited for several in-game days - and if the weather is too bad, player might risk a quick stay at a bear´s den if there are no close caves around.

I do not mind seeing rawhide beddings - it would make sense, and the added demerit of this option would be that it would attract the predators more to you - meaning you really need to have a fire going with it.

The cloth resource was added (same as with the snow shelter) more for the game balance purposes - to make this an expensive option to bed down. Something to be used rarely in need. Like I said before, would not mind making it more "natural" - I think the beard linchen would be a sufficient alternative to cloth IMO.

[Guest jeffpeng]

Just now, BareSkin said:

In my mind there was no need for curing the pelts. Honestly skinning 5 rabbits (floor/body interface) and harvesting 1 deer skin (body/air interface) in early game is not that impossible. It's literally doable on day 1.

It would make quite a stinky bed and not properly dried I guess those pelts would be bad rather soon. But yeah. The materials you can get in the first 24 hours if you know your way around your starting location and you have either a hacksaw or a way to make fire - which isn't a give as a certain BareSkin has experienced lately

[Guest jeffpeng]

Just now, Mroz4k said:

I think the beard linchen would be a sufficient alternative to cloth IMO.

That's actually an excellent idea. You find so much of this stuff ... and unless you Stalker in "Olaf Mode" .... you don't need half of it in 500 days.

[Ice Hole]

This is still a good idea.

We discussed this topic awhile ago.  There are some good ideas that are in this old thread and maybe could help this current discussion.

 

[DarKube]

Great idea everyone, but I think, if you don't have a bedroll, you don't have animal hides. So I prefer the "survival bed" be made with cloths.

[Guest jeffpeng]

36 minutes ago, DarKube said:

Great idea everyone, but I think, if you don't have a bedroll, you don't have animal hides. So I prefer the "survival bed" be made with cloths.

I crafted two deer skin pants, deer skin boots and rabbit skin mitts and even had hides for spare and never had a bedroll. There are 3-4 bedrolls in the world on Interloper. Depending on where you spawn it can take you a week even if you beeline for that location provided you actually "know" the location. If you don't know your loot table finding a bedroll can take weeks or even prove ultimately unsuccessful. 

You can harvest your first deer hides within the first 24 hours of play regardless of where you start assuming you have either matches, a mag lens, a flare or a hacksaw. I don't know a map where it is likely that all of those assumptions fall through.

So .... no. You can very much have animal hides and never even seen a bedroll.

[Mroz4k]

Like I said, I think the best solution of all would be if there were several recipes for the bedding, to accomodate all situations. Some could use cloth, some linchen, some raw pelts. The same could happen with the snow shelter. The idea with these structures is that they are "last resort" - so it makes sense the survivor would use various items to build them, depending of what would be at their disposal. 

Here is the suggested mechanic: First, you place down the "shelter" or "makeshift bedding" - then you get a new HUD window where you can select one of three different "crafting" options. The result would be the same... but depending on the selected items to build it with, it would require different items to repair its condition, and would return back specific items if deconstructed.

If this was the case, I imagine snow shelter would become a much more popular mechanic within the game, not only an early Interloper solution. Which I think is a good thing.

[Guest jeffpeng]

Wholeheartedly agreed. Especially 

28 minutes ago, Mroz4k said:

The idea with these structures is that they are "last resort" - so it makes sense the survivor would use various items to build them, depending of what would be at their disposal. 

reflects very well how a resourceful, "constructively" desperate human being would approach this.

[Jolan]

I would also like to add the possibility of "harvesting" a bed to make a bedroll.  

[Guest jeffpeng]

39 minutes ago, Jolan said:

I would also like to add the possibility of "harvesting" a bed to make a bedroll.  

I can see how that's problematic. That would basically make bedrolls cheap and easily available. There is a distinct difference in the game between "remnants" of civilizations (processed food, light and durable clothing, professional tools, chemically propelled firearms) and improvised survivalist gear (meat, sturdy and heavy clothing, crude tools, bows). Survivalist stuff has drawbacks of some sort. It's usually heavier or less effective. Plus: There is a craftable bedroll in the game, albeit more an achievement than an actual item for most people. And even that one is heavy and expensive, even for it's impressive value.

If you could just "harvest" beds for bedrolls all of the above would be completely useless and mostly obsolete except for "style" factors.

[Ice Hole]

 

3 hours ago, Mroz4k said:

there were several recipes for the bedding, to accomodate all situations.

^^

This is exactly what we need.

 

1 hour ago, Jolan said:

I would also like to add the possibility of "harvesting" a bed to make a bedroll.  

There was discussion on improving beds using pelts or rugs but I do not remember anyone mentioning dismantling a bed to create a makeshift bedroll.  There are those old bedrolls that are in the trailers, I have always wanted to take one regardless of its condition.  On interloper I would of taken one nights rest using an old bedroll inside a mine instead of dying in a car.

Good idea. It deserves its own thread.

 

[DarKube]

19 hours ago, jeffpeng said:

There are 3-4 bedrolls in the world on Interloper.

WWWHHHHAAAATTTT !!!!!!!

I didn't know

[Mroz4k]

13 hours ago, Ice Hole said:

There was discussion on improving beds using pelts or rugs but I do not remember anyone mentioning dismantling a bed to create a makeshift bedroll.  There are those old bedrolls that are in the trailers, I have always wanted to take one regardless of its condition.  On interloper I would of taken one nights rest using an old bedroll inside a mine instead of dying in a car

I doubt this will ever happen. This topic was here before - if it was an option, it would make bedrolls very common and that is just not going to happen. Part of the challenge that is in Interloper is the fact that finding a bedroll is difficult, sometimes more difficult then to craft your own bear one. I aactually think the Hinterland even made a comment they dont intend to allow bed harvesting for cloth or bedrolls. I get the realistic issue with using an old bedroll, but if you think about it, it would affect the game difficulty a lot, making it significantly easier where Bedrolls are concerned.

[Dan_]

I agree with the idea but, and this is a small but, this would render the snow shelter pointless. 

The caves get you nearly +28ªC ( end game ) of temp bonus and windproofing for your fires, where the snow shelter only gets +15ªC ( if I'm not mistaken ) and no wind protection for your precious campfire. Yes, not every place has a protected cave nearby but this would be extremely overpowered in regards to the only natural shelter option. 

It would for sure make a lot of sense IRL ( you would build a bed in the warmest, safest place possible after all ) but for this you'd need to buff up the snow shelter of reduce the bonus you can get with the bedding proposal in game.

For example, sleeping at max for 2 hours straight due to discomfort, half recovery for fatigue, no condition improvement from resting, etc.  Scaling the debuffs with difficulty level would be the dream scenario for me.

EDIT:

On 29/11/2018 at 9:23 AM, jeffpeng said:

That's actually an excellent idea. You find so much of this stuff ... and unless you Stalker in "Olaf Mode" .... you don't need half of it in 500 days.

Echoing for more uses for Old Man's beard, and also calling for the appropriate harvesting and use of birch bark sheets in shelter building. A wigwam is what we need Hinterland. Make the survivor have to find a shelter building book and read the whole thing ( Make it 30 hours of reading, for added difficulty ) and then be able to harvest and use birch bark sheets as a shingle material. 

[k0s0ff]

Thank you all very much for discussing this topic.

28 minutes ago, Dan_ said:

I agree with the idea but, and this is a small but, this would render the snow shelter pointless. 

The caves get you nearly +28ªC ( end game ) of temp bonus and windproofing for your fires, where the snow shelter only gets +15ªC ( if I'm not mistaken ) and no wind protection for your precious campfire. Yes, not every place has a protected cave nearby but this would be extremely overpowered in regards to the only natural shelter option. 

It would for sure make a lot of sense IRL ( you would build a bed in the warmest, safest place possible after all ) but for this you'd need to buff up the snow shelter of reduce the bonus you can get with the bedding proposal in game.

For example, sleeping at max for 2 hours straight due to discomfort, half recovery for fatigue, no condition improvement from resting, etc.  Scaling the debuffs with difficulty level would be the dream scenario for me.

Thank you for your comment.  Your position is reasonable. But in my opinion illogical complexity of the gameplay breaks the immersion in the game.
I mean, it's a little weird when you're forced out of a cave every time you get out and sleep in a snow shelter.  It looks like a mockery.
Please don't judge strictly, it's just my opinion.
 

36 minutes ago, Dan_ said:

Echoing for more uses for Old Man's beard, and also calling for the appropriate harvesting and use of birch bark sheets in shelter building. A wigwam is what we need Hinterland. Make the survivor have to find a shelter building book and read the whole thing ( Make it 30 hours of reading, for added difficulty ) and then be able to harvest and use birch bark sheets as a shingle material. 

That makes some sense.
 

[Dan_]

2 hours ago, k0s0ff said:

Thank you for your comment.  Your position is reasonable. But in my opinion illogical complexity of the gameplay breaks the immersion in the game.
I mean, it's a little weird when you're forced out of a cave every time you get out and sleep in a snow shelter.  It looks like a mockery.
Please don't judge strictly, it's just my opinion.

I'm not judging your opinion for the sake of it, I'm just emitting my own perception, which granted, is based on my own gameplay experience much like yours is. 

I agree that many game mechanics seem counterintuitive and improductive as far as immersion goes, cabin fever being the worst offender for example.

Immersion is not my gripe with the proposal, the only point I'm raising is that bedrolls are plentiful and craftable, and the snow shelter is a worthy substitute in the very early game if the journey is just too long for the weary traveller. By adding something that is just better and cheaper than the SS in every single way, you render one of the features of the game completely worthless and thus abandoned by the player base in my view. Yes, it makes a lot of sense, but I reckon it can be done in a more balanced way for the reasons I outlined. Hinterland checks this subforum, I'm just projecting my own point of view on this subject so it can be known too.  

Again, this is just my opinion. I'm in no way hijacking your proposal or disavowing your suggestion. We should have a craftable option for a permanent bed, and base improvement for that matter.  That's why I'm a huge proponent of modding, I wouldn't use a mod that would replicate your suggestion exactly, but I reckon that most of the player base certainly would. Each player has his/her own favourite flavour of the game. 

Just my 0.02

[k0s0ff]

5 minutes ago, Dan_ said:

Immersion is not my gripe with the proposal, the only point I'm raising is that bedrolls are plentiful and craftable, and the snow shelter is a worthy substitute in the very early game if the journey is just too long for the weary traveller. By adding something that is just better and cheaper than the SS in every single way, you render one of the features of the game completely worthless and thus abandoned by the player base in my view. Yes, it makes a lot of sense, but I reckon it can be done in a more balanced way for the reasons I outlined. Hinterland checks this subforum, I'm just projecting my own point of view on this subject so it can be known too.  

Thanks for the comment.
Maybe you have some specific suggestions for achieving balance. Can be use any something rare resources? Write please. Your opinion is very important.
 

[Dan_]

I'm not sure how to debuff this while keeping it useful. Perhaps offering no sleep healing (or reduced healing)?

Edit: Either that, or buff up the snow shelter temp bonus, as it is half of what a warm cave can do. 

I love camping out at caves, and the bear bedroll already renders you blizzard proof if you have good 20ºC+ clothing. I'd pay up for the opportunity to build wigwams, or even better quinzees. But the branch bed is an existing asset in the game and a good idea, so this actually has a shot of being featured on the game somehow.