Priorities


Sunwolf

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After an extended break, I've embraced Vigilant Flame and the changes it brings.  I have some thoughts.

I haven't yet made up my mind about the new cooking system.  On one hand, it decreases game time spent solely cooking.  This is good as it allows for a more efficient gameplay experience.  On the other hand, it increases micromanagement as well as actual real time spent cooking (unless the player is ultra-efficient and has all his/her ducks in a row--which arguably increases real time spent planning so as to avoid increased real time spent cooking).  Overall, I see it as a mixed bag.  From reading player reviews, however, it seems like I'm in the minority as many players either love or hate the new system.

I have yet to explore Hushed River Valley.  I hear it's nice.

My main problem lies in my concern for Hinterland's priorities.  Games tend to have lifespans.  With a few notable exceptions, games that were spectacular and groundbreaking a decade ago quickly became dated when the industry expanded and improved upon once-creative ideas.  Players evolve with games and demand more as technology and their game libraries improve/expand.  The way I see it, Hinterland ought to have two main priorities to which all other issues take a back seat: Mods and Wintermute.

Let's start with Wintermute.  While sandboxing can be fun and rewarding, I'm afraid many players will burn out on the game before Wintermute is finished.  I'm also concerned that Hinterland postponing the completion of Wintermute, in favor of addressing things like the cooking system, will damage their bottom line and thus the potential for The Long Dark to become what it could and ought to be.  By this I mean that new sales of the game would be best served by completing the story mode rather than spending energy on individual systems that, while imperfect, are functional.  This is my opinion.  I could be wrong but based on my own burnout cycle as well as feedback from many friends who play the game, I don't think I am.

While Wintermute is important, officially sanctioned modding tools should be the absolute number one priority to which all other concerns, including Wintermute, ought to take a back seat.  The one thing I've learned about The Long Dark is that every person has a different idea of what makes the game great and what should be changed and how.  Logic dictates that if everyone wants a different experience, instead of spending time and energy changing things like the cooking system and hoping players will like it, why not give players the tools to change the cooking system themselves if they so choose?

It could be argued that the games that have lasted the longest with the most player enthusiasm are games that allow the community to change and evolve the experience of playing the game based on their own preferences.  Skyrim, released late 2011, instantly comes to mind, but I would argue that it's just the latest in a series of games that keep generating enthusiasm years after other games, released around the same time, die off and become bargain-bin fodder.  Oblivion (2006) continues to enjoy a healthy modding player community, as does Morrowind (2002).  Hell, you can still find many active Neverwinter Nights (also 2002) persistent world servers, even though its been years since the developer took down the official NWN servers and, in essence, abandoned the game.  I believe that the ability for players to create their own experiences through modding toolsets are what sets these games apart.  Because of this, I also believe that Hinterland would be doing themselves a favor if they stopped everything else today and made modding tools their one and only priority.

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I think with Sandbox this game will continue to have longevity. not to mention we are hitting the point of where folks start making their own challenges and mini games within the game. Like here's one...

From Peak to Peak> Starting in Broken Railroad, go to The Peak Cave and then to the peak of Timberwolf Mountain and post the time it takes.

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I have played mods (with other games than TLD) in the past and enjoyed them immensely. But I have no idea whether moddability does much for the sales of a game. And in the end sales carry a game development company to the next game, not the devoted modding activities of a chosen few (however highly their activities may be coveted by some players).

Granted, there may be some sales from people who explicitly seek mods for enhancement, and there may be some additional long-term sales when mods exist. But I would expect these additional sales to be negligible in comparison to the, let's say, 'basic sales' of a game.

Hinterland has stated many times that they plan to do something for the modders when the game is finished, and that may be far from now. Currently, the game is being continually updated, so there is always something new to try and explore. Personally, I do not miss modding at all for the time being.

I also disagree that Wintermute should have so much more priority than sandbox. It was the sandbox which turned this game into the success it is, not the story mode. So it seems prudent to cater both to people who await the next Wintermute chapters and to people who prefer just the sandbox. If you read the developers' older postings on these forums, you will see that it has already been discussed how resources are being distributed between Wintermute and Sandbox.

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Modability can help some games.. Farming Simulator survives basically on on the grace of modders for a two year stretch between releases... Giants Software have embraced the modding community and host mods on their own site (if you follow their rules) and the modders can make money from downloads... but this is the ONLY case that I can think of.

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That and they don't want mods to break the immersive feeling the game is currently giving most people.

As someone who loves mods (even when devs didn't even supported them, e.g. the Age Of Empires series) I can understand how modding would ruin certain feelings and impressions the game currently is giving.

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3 hours ago, Blinkin said:

That and they don't want mods to break the immersive feeling the game is currently giving most people.

As someone who loves mods (even when devs didn't even supported them, e.g. the Age Of Empires series) I can understand how modding would ruin certain feelings and impressions the game currently is giving.

That's the great thing about mods--they're not required.  If you enjoy the immersion created by the game as the devs intended, go to it.  But if there's something you'd like to see changed that's not high on the devs' priority list, the only way you'll be able to experience that change in a timely fashion is through mods.

Personally, the only thing I'd mod is the UI.  It's horrific.  Think default Oblivion UI only arguably worse.  Such an amazing game with such an awful UI...something has to give.

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On 7/26/2018 at 7:41 PM, Sunwolf said:

Hinterland would be doing themselves a favor if they stopped everything else today and made modding tools their one and only priority.

 

1 hour ago, Sunwolf said:

That's the great thing about mods--they're not required. 

Hmmm.

They should drop everything else they're doing and work on something that's not required?

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10 minutes ago, Pillock said:

 

Hmmm.

They should drop everything else they're doing and work on something that's not required?

At this point, what's "required"?  With the possible exception of Wintermute, they could drop everything and go on vacation or retire and oh well because the game is essentially in a finished state.  Or they could continue to work on it for the next couple years, fixing/altering a system here and there (that the players may or may not appreciate), developing new zones once or twice a year.  Or they could leverage the creativity and time of their player base, letting the players fix what they want to fix, alter what they want to alter, develop what they want to develop, and focus on things like DLC content or even *gasp* a new game.  There's a reason Skyrim is *still* on the Steam top seller list, 7 years after it was first released, and it's not because Bethesda revamped anything.

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1 minute ago, Sunwolf said:

At this point, what's "required"?  With the possible exception of Wintermute, they could drop everything and go on vacation or retire and oh well because the game is essentially in a finished state.  Or they could continue to work on it for the next couple years, fixing/altering a system here and there (that the players may or may not appreciate), developing new zones once or twice a year.  Or they could leverage the creativity and time of their player base, letting the players fix what they want to fix, alter what they want to alter, develop what they want to develop, and focus on things like DLC content or even *gasp* a new game.  There's a reason Skyrim is *still* on the Steam top seller list, 7 years after it was first released, and it's not because Bethesda revamped anything.

I agree with you up to a point, actually. I was just being a little facetious in my last post - sorry about that.

But the glaring thing, and you have mentioned this yourself, is that Wintermute is still in development. I really don't think there's any chance of seeing official mod support until after Season 1 is finished, and I think they're right to prioritise it that way round.

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2 minutes ago, Sunwolf said:

At this point, what's "required"?  With the possible exception of Wintermute, they could drop everything and go on vacation or retire and oh well because the game is essentially in a finished state.  Or they could continue to work on it for the next couple years, fixing/altering a system here and there (that the players may or may not appreciate), developing new zones once or twice a year.  Or they could leverage the creativity and time of their player base, letting the players fix what they want to fix, alter what they want to alter, develop what they want to develop, and focus on things like DLC content or even *gasp* a new game.  There's a reason Skyrim is *still* on the Steam top seller list, 7 years after it was first released, and it's not because Bethesda revamped anything.

And there are also a very vocal number of gamers who feel Bethesda "betrayed" them, by not furthering the game themselves, and dropping it like a hot rotten potato, in the laps of the Modding community, and then washing their hands of it. While making a ton of money off of the continued sales of the game, that happen because of unpaid work put in my dedicated modders.

I am a modder. I won't mod the game until I have supported tools. given to me by a studio, any studio, Hinterland included. I would much rather that they further their own game, and take the credit or blame for its success or failure, rather than expecting me and other modders to carry their brand for years, with no reward other than "Internet creds". Once the game is done, and they move onto something new, yeah, I love the game and will mod it then. After their vision for their game is done. I can add my vision with their approval after that.

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2 hours ago, Sunwolf said:

That's the great thing about mods--they're not required.  If you enjoy the immersion created by the game as the devs intended, go to it.  But if there's something you'd like to see changed that's not high on the devs' priority list, the only way you'll be able to experience that change in a timely fashion is through mods.

...

I completely agree with that. Mod support is however still something they won't support till they finish the game for the reasons mentioned earlier.
But I don't see why it would stop people for making mods, in fact a hand full of mods already exist. :D

There's just a small but important difference between having mods for a game and having mods for a game where the devs support modding.
At this stage I can image why they wouldn't support modding yet. It won't stop people from modding though (which is a good thing imo). :)
Modders can do modding and the devs can focus on finishing their game (and at official mods support afterwards).

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2 minutes ago, ThePancakeLady said:

And there are also a very vocal number of gamers who feel Bethesda "betrayed" them, by not furthering the game themselves, and dropping it like a hot rotten potato, in the laps of the Modding community, and then washing their hands of it. While making a ton of money off of the continued sales of the game, that happen because of unpaid work put in my dedicated modders.

I am a modder. I won't mod the game until I have supported tools. given to me by a studio, any studio, Hinterland included. I would much rather that they further their own game, and take the credit or blame for its success or failure, rather than expecting me and other modders to carry their brand for years, with no reward other than "Internet creds". Once the game is done, and they move onto something new, yeah, I love the game and will mod it then. After their vision for their game is done. I can add my vision with their approval after that.

I agree to a certain extent about Bethesda dropping the potato in the lap of the community...but that's Bethesda.  It's what they do.  Expect it and you'll never be disappointed.   Also, no one forced anyone to mod anything.  Personally, I'd prefer if everyone just stop buying Bethesda games (or at the very least stop modding them) until they pull their collective heads out of their collective asses and develop something worth playing off the shelf.

This game is worth playing off the shelf.  It just needs some polishing, primarily, in my opinion, to the UI.  This is a game worth spending time modding.  Hell, people are already modding it without official tools.  If the tools aren't forthcoming I'm afraid we'll see a small group of diehards continue to play or return when there's a major update while the majority of players drift off to find something else.  If the tools aren't forthcoming I'm afraid there won't be anyone left to use them when they do actually come out.

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7 minutes ago, Blinkin said:

There's just a small but important difference between having mods for a game and having mods for a game where the devs support modding.

I'm glad you pointed out that the difference, while small, is indeed important.

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