Dev Diary - February 2018

[Le Petit Prince]

On 28.02.2018 at 1:21 PM, XAlaskan_420X said:

@Le Petit Prince - Do you know what is involved in the development of a game? I have looked into game development and got to a point to where I realized that you don't just "simply make a game". It is not simple or easy AT ALL. Especially if we are talking about developing one by yourself - that is a different story, but I want to briefly touch on that just to give you a perspective. Imagine this: to create a game like The Long Dark by yourself (even if you were an experienced programmer), you would die of old age before it would be finished. Seriously, I watched a video explaining this. I will try to find it, if you would like. It wasn't talking about the long dark specifically, but games that are as developed as this or more. It is NOT all simple and easy like it can so easily be imagined. and this is based on just the little bit of understanding I have about it so far. Now yes, Hinterland is instead a team and not one person, but I just stated that point about the "one-person developer" in order to give a perspective. Now Hinterland is a game development team, and correct me if I am wrong, but Hinterland is a NEW game development team. I'd say that Hinterland has done a wonderful marvelous job at creating their first game (at least as far as the game has gotten in development, because it is still unfinished)... actually more than... because even saying it like that seems like an understatement. Now I do agree with you that the ability to jump would be a great addition to the game. But I disagree with your more general point regarding the overall quality of the game itself, calling it "trash". I disagree with that entirely. Hinterland is doing a great job. Keep doing what you are doing Hinterland. Your doing great.

Well i don't think you get my point so i will try to explain it more clear. I perfectly know how hard it is to develope a game. You're right probably it would take more than my lifetime if i would try. But i know it is not that hard to ADD something to the game. You are missing a point here: they are not making a new game now. All of the objects, all actions, all animals and people in the game, all visual effects, all maps and everything is already been created. Story is ready as well (i know it because in official trailer there is a guy with glasses that we've not seen yet). Now even still, i agree that putting these things together and create another episode will take some time. Wintermute has been released at August 2017 (as far as i remember) and probably a professional programming team could create the next episode until the end of 2017. It was what we were expecting and it was totally okay to me. Also they announced "Later on 2017 and probably into 2018". This date was a logical mind's product. I know it because one my friend is creating modes for Skyrim. He says that since everything is already coded in the game itself, it is not that hard to create a mode which can have about 30 hours playtime. He did it by only himself in 6 months and we've played it. Well there were some bugs but he is not professional. And Wintermute episodes' playtime is not that long actually.

Now, i am not saying something like their job is easy. I am saying that they first announced the date as ending 2017, they postponded it, they didn't give another date, and its 3 months passed still they are saying it will take a long time and we still can't give a date. It's been 7 months since i've finished the Wintermute, i loved it but it was a short experience and i thought other episode will come with short time intervals so that we could keep playing it without "cooling". But now, i've already forgot bunch of things about the game and even 1 more episode is not released. As i understand from news, it is so far to be released. Well, as i believe if you're releasing a game WHICH IS NOT IN EARLY ACCESS, you should be ready to work hard and keep story mode updated at least per 5-6 months (even this is too much i think, but i will accept it) if your story mode has only 2 episodes which has under 24 hours total playtime. I'm just saying that this delay is too much and makes some players like me to lose some trust and desire to the game which we loved at the first place. 

I will give you a perfect example here. The game "Telltale's The Walking Dead" releases each season with 2 years delay. But they are releasing each episode of those seasons with only 2 months delay. I am trying to tell you people this. Waiting for another season or the next game of a game series for even 2 or 3 years is okay. But if you wait about 1 year for each episode, this is not a well done job as i think.

And one last thing, you said "Now Hinterland is a game development team, and correct me if I am wrong, but Hinterland is a NEW game development team." 

It's been 6 years since Hinterland Studio has established, and it's been 3,5 years passed since The Long Dark is released.

But you know, keep greeting them and they will keep waiting you 1 year for each episode. and Wintermute will be completed by 2021. And probably your lifetime  will not be enough to see the 2nd season 

[hozz1235]

Unless  you're a software developer, you really have no idea what goes in to development.  I can understand your logic of "all the tools are in place, just put them together", but I can speak from experience, it is not always that easy.  It sounds like HL is working on multiple tasks at once and that derails from the resources devoted to creating more episodes.  Updating the underlying architecture is a HUGE undertaking.  I would hope that HL is listening to their audience (IMO, they seem to be) and prioritizing their work given the limited resources they have.  Can't ask for much more.

[MueckE]

Well to be fair, you don't need to be a game designer to have a perspective. As a customer you can also compare what people are able to do and if you follow the developement closeley you can also see in detail what has been done (ofc the game itself, not everything company related that comes with that).

There are a lot of indi-studious and games out there. You can compare, to some extend,  the developement of TLD to, for example: This war of mine, Vanishing of Eathan Carter, ELEX and even Kingdom Come although Warhorse obviously is much bigger (more man power). If it comes to "work" like creating a big world, thousands of objects and deep and complex characters with tons of quests/ options - basicly the things we are talking about, the argument for a slow developement because of the small studio doesn't really work (from the consumer perspective).

Obviously there is a reason for the slow developement we don't know and Hinterland doesn't want/has to tell us. And yes, the other extreme would be to compare it for example to DayZ-Standalone - so you can see it both ways.

 

[hozz1235]

There is some truth to what you say but there are also SO many variables that could come into play - could be the experience & size of the staff, the platform, other internal company decisions/research being made.  Guess what I'm trying to say is that unless you can peer into their studio and watch what they're doing, you have to assume they're doing their best.  After all, it is in their best-interest to keep their fans interested in their product = revenue.

[MrJade]

On 3/2/2018 at 9:57 AM, hozz1235 said:

 After all, it is in their best-interest to keep their fans interested in their product = revenue.

This is not entirely true. Look at Dawn of War III. Continued development costs were deemed greater than future revenue. This also happens a lot to Kickstarted games, where the money all comes before the effort. 

I'm not saying Hinterlands has plans to stop, but they have probably sold 90+% of their total revenue stream at this point and actually ceasing development right now would increase TLD's profitability. It would effectively destroy Hinterlands as a studio, but EA does it all the time. 

All this is to say that saying HL has a direct economic incentive to finish TLD is wrong, it is entirely based on reputation, keeping promises, and a hypothetical future title. Which isn't guaranteed to be a success. 

[cekivi]

Hey folks. 

Try not to derail the thread with comments on what constitutes a "true" fan. It doesn't really add much to the discussion. 

[Tbone555]

Woah. I've been gone for too long, man.

On 2/23/2018 at 1:19 PM, Le Petit Prince said:

LOL... It's been almost 7 months and you say it will still take long time, and you can't still give a date about only 1 episode which should be already done 3 months ago at the end of 2017. I don't know what others think but i think this news are nothing but tragedy. I'm not very into survival games but i really liked the story mode, and i finished it in only 24 hours and waiting for 7 months... I wish it wasn't too late to refund this piece of trash...

So you changed some actions of NPCs on previous episodes on 7 months? CONGRATULATIONS...

I hope you make this character be able to jump, so that this "THE LONG TIME" waiting worth it at least a little bit.

Sorry guys, i know everyone's gonna attack me on comments, but hey! You all know what you have just read are truths.

It is the truth, however, calling the game a "piece of trash" is a little absurd to be frank. chill man. If you wanna voice an opinion, that's fine. If you wanna tell them what you think and that you deserve a refund, that's fine, however I don't think this is the proper place to do it. But you're literally just being disrespectful and attacking them, and that kind of behaviour really has no place on these forums. be constructive and helpful, don't just be a jerk lol

On 2/22/2018 at 12:22 PM, DogFoodEaterPs4 said:

Still waiting on those bear saddles to be added to the game Raph. lol. The future of the Long Dark is looking bright! Good luck.

Yes. just yes.

 

On 2/21/2018 at 2:44 AM, Vinceofpyrenees said:

OMG, if you succeed to make Jeremiah moving in interacting presence with the character, I already imagine a NPC walking with us, or maybe hunting with us, collecting branches, fishing, etc...alive NPCs.

I really appreciate all the work you make guys, it's everytime well thought, it's everytime a huge gift and it's make me happy.

I was thinking about the real time cooking project to improving the sense of presence in the same way as the full body simulation. What about ?

Glad to know you are actually making all these improvements, I wish you all the best. Audaces fortuna juvat !

This. +1

On 2/20/2018 at 9:33 PM, EricTheGreat12 said:

By the look of Astrid at the top next to what seems like the tunnel collapse next to the Prison Bus, will we perhaps have the opportunity to make our character crawl through the bus in order to get through the other side? 

I sure do hope so, I swear. call me a bad person but I always wanted to just steal gray mothers rifle and move on lol! hopefully this new update will give us the opportunity to really test how far we would truly go to survive, and open up alternate routes and outcomes for quests! I always disliked the linearity of what we currently have. It was a bit of a disappointment to me to be honest.

 

A special note to hinterland:

Many many thanks on the update, and taking community feedback to heart as you have. If you want my honest opinion, y'all started out slow but you're quickly getting back on track. the way I see it you're now attempting to deliver the game which was expected / promised, and while that should have been done in the first place, i respect you all immensely for that. So now I raise my coffee mug to you, raph, aswell as the rest of the hinterland team. You're doing a great job, don't let the naysayers get you down! love you all, thank you for the life changing experience you have brought all of us here at hinterland forums, especially to us early access players who have been following the game since the beginning, or close to it. It's been a hell of a ride and a huge learning experience for everyone involved and I'm very excited for what's to come! cheers!

Sincerely, just another survivor lost in the amazing world that is, The Long Dark.

[EricTheGreat12]

6 minutes ago, Tbone555 said:

I sure do hope so, I swear. call me a bad person but I always wanted to just steal gray mothers rifle and move on lol! hopefully this new update will give us the opportunity to really test how far we would truly go to survive, and open up alternate routes and outcomes for quests! I always disliked the linearity of what we currently have. It was a bit of a disappointment to me to be honest.

While I agree with what you are saying, I was thinking through a survival mode sense: allowing the player to leave the region of Milton during Episode 1 takes away too much linearity from Story Mode gameplay. I just struggle to understand how we would get from Mountain Town to the new region, considering that the bus is snowed in and that there are no climbing areas between the two regions.

 

I don't think though that we can get that far in terms of bold action. I think that the ability to simply steal grey mother's items and leave the region 15 minutes into Episode 1 would be cool, it's just not something that the devs would want the player to experience. A certain amount of linearity would be required in order for the player to experience Story Mode.

 

Nonetheless, more player choice gets a green light by me and is a step in the right direction 

[Tbone555]

7 minutes ago, EricTheGreat12 said:

While I agree with what you are saying, I was thinking through a survival mode sense: allowing the player to leave the region of Milton during Episode 1 takes away too much linearity from Story Mode gameplay. I just struggle to understand how we would get from Mountain Town to the new region, considering that the bus is snowed in and that there are no climbing areas between the two regions.

 

I don't think though that we can get that far in terms of bold action. I think that the ability to simply steal grey mother's items and leave the region 15 minutes into Episode 1 would be cool, it's just not something that the devs would want the player to experience. A certain amount of linearity would be required in order for the player to experience Story Mode.

 

Nonetheless, more player choice gets a green light by me and is a step in the right direction 

Well i think it would be cool to have something along those lines, myself. It does add a ton of linearity and ruins the story aspect in a way, however, on a second playthrough you might say "hmm. I wonder what would have happened if I helped that nice blind old lady" and end up discovering a whole quest line that you didn't know was there! it would add a lot of replayability to that part of the game, aswell as the rest of the game aswell anywhere you'd be able to take a drastically different path. kind of like on fallout 3. You can skip the entire opening quest line by just exploring and finding your dad on your own. I'd love to see something like that here

[Vinceofpyrenees]

Hello Hinterland devs, what news ? 

[Le Petit Prince]

On 28.03.2018 at 1:32 PM, Vinceofpyrenees said:

Hello Hinterland devs, what news ? 

To summarize; Probably episode 3 will be released before 2072. But still not sure.

[odizzido]

I always like seeing update info, so thanks for posting this

[ArcherAC3]

I wish it would be possible to toggle the Old UI (the old search mechanic at least) back into the game.
It might seem like a small thing (one which I didn't even noticed how much I liked, until the Devs simply took it out) but that feeling of searching a container, trying desperately to find a match box to save you from death, while also feeling more and more hopeless as the bar would progress through the screen and the searching noises would go on without any item being found (or the excitement of finding what you need on the last second) was just one of the things I mostly liked about TLD.

This article by PCGamer explains this very well, and I'm glad to see more people also agree with me on this: https://www.pcgamer.com/why-i-love-the-long-darks-painstaking-search-mechanic/

Now, I've heard before that this new UI mechanic is better because you don't have to keep tapping A or B (don't know the equivalent keys on PC) to get or drop an item, especially when you're searching the supply crates on Timberwolf Mountain. But this is absolutely false! With the new UI, you will have to tap A and/or B by the end of the search because all the items found will be shown to you at the end and you must choose wheter to carry them or leave 'em.

I guess I'll post this on the Wishlist as well, not sure which of the two threads are more likely to be seen by devs. And if some of you older players (from the time we had the older UI present) agree with me, please, leave a reaction and comment about this. I personally think it was a pretty interesting mechanic and we should ask the Devs why it has been just taken out like that and tell them how important it was.

[togg]

I agree with Archer, I still miss that mechanic a lot. The game just became more dull without it. I suppose it was taken out for simplicity sake and in favour of the horrible hold and search mechanic. Maybe they thought that the game would become smoother like this, which is true I guess, but not in a positive way

As you said we can try open a thread in the wishlist forum.

[ArcherAC3]

16 hours ago, togg said:

I agree with Archer, I still miss that mechanic a lot. The game just became more dull without it. I suppose it was taken out for simplicity sake and in favour of the horrible hold and search mechanic. Maybe they thought that the game would become smoother like this, which is true I guess, but not in a positive way

As you said we can try open a thread in the wishlist forum.

Thanks!
Made a thread here: 

 Would be nice if we could get some reactions there, so it won't be lost in the limbo of the wishlists xD

[SoloPopo]

I love the full body simulation idea. I'm always impressed with games that pull this off. It's a subtle detail that really adds to immersion. Don't forget to put some functioning mirrors around the world so we can see ourselves every once in a while!

[Vinceofpyrenees]

On ‎03‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 6:07 AM, SoloPopo said:

I love the full body simulation idea. I'm always impressed with games that pull this off. It's a subtle detail that really adds to immersion. Don't forget to put some functioning mirrors around the world so we can see ourselves every once in a while!

Yes, body simulation as Kingdom Come Deliverance. I already suggested mirrors one day ! I love that !

[MrJade]

No March dev blog, maybe an April one? Who am I kidding? We'll see y'all in June.

[Vinceofpyrenees]

Usually, there is an update each season. And we like it like that. So, waiting the spring update, whatever its content size.

[MueckE]

Yesterday i saw one of these T-shirts with: I went to .. and all i got was this lousy T-shirt.

 

For some reason a few minutes later i thought about TLD, so it came to my mind that:

I waited 8 months and all i got was a custom mode and a handful of bugfixes 

[nicko]

50 minutes ago, MueckE said:

Yesterday i saw one of these T-shirts with: I went to .. and all i got was this lousy T-shirt.

 

For some reason a few minutes later i thought about TLD, so it came to my mind that:

I waited 8 months and all i got was a custom mode and a handful of bugfixes 

8 months?

Early access, also known as early funding, alpha-access, or paid-alpha, is a funding model in the video game industry by which consumers can pay for a game in the various development cycles (pre-alpha, alpha, beta) and obtain access to the pre-full release versions of the game, while the developer is able to use those funds to continue work on the game. Those that pay to participate typically help to debug the game, provide feedback and suggestions, and may have access to special materials in the game. The early-access approach is a common way to obtain funding for indie games, and may also be used along with other funding mechanisms, including crowdfunding.

[Vinceofpyrenees]

2 hours ago, MueckE said:

Yesterday i saw one of these T-shirts with: I went to .. and all i got was this lousy T-shirt.

 

For some reason a few minutes later i thought about TLD, so it came to my mind that:

I waited 8 months and all i got was a custom mode and a handful of bugfixes 

And a Moose. Buy, yeah, Hinterland has a pretty slow development.

[Blinkin]

Let's not forget the game has become huge with lot's of (complicated) systems which all rely on each other.
The larger a game gets the more complex development gets. Which will slow down development iterations.

[Pillock]

44 minutes ago, Blinkin said:

Let's not forget the game has become huge with lot's of (complicated) systems which all rely on each other.
The larger a game gets the more complex development gets. Which will slow down development iterations.

Yes, but.

They have released the game out of Early Access now, and a major part of it remains incomplete, 7 months later. They released Wintermute as a Episodes 1 and 2 of "Season One". Seven months without any sign (or even a rough prediction) of Episode 3 is too long. There are all sorts of reasons for it - unforeseen release problems, player feedback prompting unplanned improvements, more complicated development, etc. Yes, they are reasons for it that have been explained.

But 7 months between "episodes" of a "season" is too long. And it will end up being longer than that. It's a narrative - it's episodic - we need to know what happens next. It's not like a deliberate cliff-hanger that has you awaiting the sequel - it's just the introduction and then nothing. What I'd really like is some information about timeframes. They've said that they won't make promises on deadlines from now on unless they're sure they can keep them - but now the game is released fully (and in shops soon!), they do have a commitment and a responsibility towards customers to keep them informed that didn;t exist in Early Access... because now it's supposed to be a finished product, and that product has not been delivered as promised yet. (And there's absolutely no way they should be putting the game into hard copies on store shelves before they've fixed the planned reworks of Episodes One and Two, by the way.)

[Blinkin]

I certainly can't disagree with that. (Although for me this is the first episodic game I've played so I've zero experience with it.)

I think Hinterland has 3 main problems with developing The Long Dark at the moment:
1) Feature creep
2) Expectation management (has been talked about in different topics with community mods about how hard this is)
3) Perfectionism