suggestion CROSSBOWS

[private duksworth]

i think we should have maybe a crossbow in the game as in canada many hunters choose this as it being powerful but silent so it doesn't scare off any wild life if you move. it could take arrows as ammo. thats just a idea i had 

[Mroz4k]

Ugh. This again? There has been so many of these already.

While it may make sense, in a way that it would be quite possibly the best weapon for hunting in TLD scene, that in itself is the problem.

If this was to appear, it would be a silent yet precise, somewhat heavy weapon with the possibility of craftable projectiles. In other words, it combines all the strengths of a rifle (save the noise scaring factor, but that's more of a detriment anyways) and the bow (except for its lightness). This would make hunting too easy. And what we really want is more challenging hunting, not easier.

And those are reasons enough not to have the crossbow in the game. There is not much you can do to nerf it in order for it to become viable. Besides, the game has enough weapons as it is right now. And if I were to guess, more firearms are going to get in eventually - most likely a revolver since there are already in-game files for it.

It most definitely couldn't take arrows as ammo. Did you ever see a crossbow? The reason why the bolts are so precise is that they are smaller, shorter, but bulkier (heavier), and they are shot out with higher force - they act less like arrows, more like bullets. That's why they have somewhat similar properties. 

[Wade]

If they want to add a new weapon, how about a shotgun?  Or a shotgun combo.  Let me do some bird hunting and or kill some varmints stealing the meat I leave laying around all the time.

[Mroz4k]

4 minutes ago, Wade said:

If they want to add a new weapon, how about a shotgun?  Or a shotgun combo.  Let me do some bird hunting and or kill some varmints stealing the meat I leave laying around all the time.

I dont think they want to add a new weapon. It's more about what the community wants. I am pretty sure they would have us, hunting with kitchen cutlery if they could make it fit in reasonably into the game

I expect shotgun will make it into the game at some point. Mostly because a huge part of the community wants it. ´Merica, I guess.

The revolver was a part of the old roadmaps, so I am guessing they will add that one in the future because they already promised to do it.

As for me, I don't want to see any sort of new firearms make it into the game. But if I wanted something added after all, it would be a black gunpowder musket. Heavy, loud 1-shot rifle, with craftable bullets, and craftable black gunpowder, utilizing found ingredients like sulphur (its used to fight fungus infestation in normal homes, or lumps could be found in caves), saltpeter (which can be made, I recently found out - through a long process, in very small doses, perfect for TLD conditions), and grounded charcoal.

This would be a firearm that is renewable BUT difficult to get, maintain, and rather weak compared to standard rifle, as it would need to be reloaded after every shot. Would likely have really high crit chance, and very low bleeding rates. This would put it into comparison to rifle and bow, being the primary weapons at the moment.

[Wade]

3 minutes ago, Mroz4k said:

The revolver was a part of the old roadmaps, so I am guessing they will add that one in the future because they already promised to do it.

Promised....  I think you meant aspired to add.

Yeah I saw it on there and if you look at the old roadmap they have completed most of the little stuff that was on it.  I personally don't really see the need for a revolver, but hey some people want it I think.

[Mroz4k]

The revolver has an interesting utility in the game, in my opinion.

I don't expect it to be as much of a "hunting" weapon as a "self-defence" one. Something like the flare gun. At the moment, (even though its a bear killer) Flare gun is not much of a weapon for hunting - but if you get cornered by a big predator, it pays to have one in your hands. At the same time, that is why it is a weapon no. 3 on the wheel, and if you pick it up, it needs to be primed - to punish players for not carrying it in their hands already, or make it impossible to switch to it quickly after your rifle shot didn't kill the bear and its charging at you.

Revolver is more likely going to be a defensive weapon. We don't really have weapons of that sort in the game yet, save the flare gun.

The shotgun you mentioned would, in my opinion, be a defensive weapon as well. With just higher stopping power. Not much use in using it to hunt the animals we have in the game, but if its a single action and has high power at close range, it would be a very good bear/moose stopping weapon.

[Wade]

2 minutes ago, Mroz4k said:

Revolver is more likely going to be a defensive weapon. We don't really have weapons of that sort in the game yet, save the flare gun.

It makes sense that a revolver would be a defensive weapon.  Revolver\flare gun, bow\crossbow, seems like just doubling up to me.  I agree with you that there isn't really the need for any more weapons.  Everyone has there own wish list though.

[Mroz4k]

Problem with a crossbow is that it would be a primary hunting weapon. The question is - how would we make it balanced compared to other weapons in the game?

The musket option I said, that one was much more realistic in terms of game balance. Like I said, heavy (-), 1 shot(--), loud(+ i -), diffficult to maintain(-)... BUT, had craftable projectiles(+++). So, it is better than a bow, BUT it took much more effort to make ammo for it. That is why I would make it so it has really high crit change, better then rifle (+++), but really low bleeding ratio (--).

Problem with crossbow is that it doesn't have this sort of balance to it. Its silent(++), heavy(-), easily craftable projectiles (+++), accurate and mid distance (++). Even if it was difficult to get it in the first place, once you had it, as long as you maintained it, hunting would become a breeze. So, unless we make it have really low crit chance (---) AS WELL AS low bleeding ratio, its still going to be an OP weapon. And I see how a lot of people would complain, once it get into the game, that the weapon is really weak, weaker then a bow, and they would want it more powerful.

I am all for crossbow, if you can find a way to make it balanced for the game. Because I spent many hours on trying to figure it out, and the only thing I came up with was that it would be really weak - but even then, hunting would STILL be easy with it, as long as you had the patience to wait for your animals to bleed out slowly.

But, as far as "craftable weapons" go, I am sure there are better, more balanced weapons that could have been added. Things like javelins, bolas... 

See, someone once had a similar idea - they wanted to see slings in the game. Because its an easy to make, very difficult to use acurately, but also very deadly weapon which uses rocks as projectiles. I argumented against it as well, because while it makes sense to use it in real life in survival situation, in TLD it would make hunting very easy, and you would never even have to work for the projectiles, because they are lying everywhere.

 

[StrayCat]

The only weapon I would like to see in the game, would be a weaker rifle. Something like a .22LR or a 9mm. Bolt action or semi-auto with a small magazine (5-7 bullets). With just a few twists :
- This new rifle & bullets would be the most available, but it could only be used to hunt rabbits, and (with some luck and several bullets), get a wolf/deer down or scare them. Shooting bears & moose with this would be a complete suicide - with luck, it might scare them away.
- On the other hand, the current rifle & bullets could be made rarer.

I think this combination is balanced, more than adding a new powerful one-shot weapon with renewable ammo.

[Sunwolf]

On 12/18/2017 at 0:54 AM, Mroz4k said:

Ugh. This again? There has been so many of these already.

Perhaps you should show a little respect for peoples' ideas.  You're not king here.

Anyway, I think a crossbow could be a great idea.  Make it a craftable-only item and, for balance purposes, reduce the effective range dramatically.  If you want to hunt with any range, use the rifle or, if you're good, the bow.  But the crossbow could could be an effective, short-range solution for those with the balls to get in close.  Kind of like stones for rabbits only for larger game.

[TerribleSurvivor]

I would like to see a primitive crossbow obtainable in a hunting blind and some other fitting places (max 3 or 4 spawns per world though).

For balancing issues mentioned above i see a solution looking like this:

1. Medium crit chance (like 40% ? when hitting head/heart).

2. Good damage BUT starts dropping when condition decreases (<60% ?). This would force the player to maintain the arm (simple tools?).

3. Mediocre durability (25 bolts at max). The bow string needs to be pulled to an extreme degree of tension and unleashes an equally high power potential. That would of course strain the material a lot resulting in high decay of the arm itself. Doesn´t break completly but needs to be repaired (quality tools?). Maybe a bow assembly has to be crafted in order to repair it?

4. Limited bleeding time. The animal would take some damage over time but eventually recover its wound. Like losing 30% condition from after a max bleeding duration of 8 hours? This would force the player to shoot his prey at least two times in 8 hours (plus two to four hours bleeding to death).

5. Easily craftable (single use) bolts made of cedar/fir wood (five per unit?) requiring a knife to be crafted (180 minutes crafting time?).

6. For the skills it could be connected to both firearm and bow skill. It takes the average of both skill levels and improves swaying and bolt damage by a certain percentage depending on the calculated rounded average. Like 5% per level except for level 4 and 5 that should give you higher benefits like 25% and 35%. Because of the high effects in higher skill levels it shouldn´t improve them when killing prey.

Ammunition, unlike with the rifle/bow, would not be the problem but mediocre durability and thus dropping damage would limit the arm itself. As shown above this would be the way i would implement this weapon. A hybrid of bow and hunting rifle, connecting some strenghts of both (silent, firing while crouched, high velocity bolts and good damage) as well as some weaknesses (maintenance, high decay, single use ammunition and decreasing usability/effectiveness proportional to its condition).

These however can´t be considered finalized values. But i think it is a good approach.

[Mpat120]

Crossbows are quite powerful at Short to Mid range, although cumbersome to reload. The one I hunt pigs with is rated at 110 Foot Pounds of energy, enough to take a Cape Buffalo (or just about anything else) at 40 yards (just dont miss, second shots dont happen in that time frame). The largest downfall of crossbows arent the limbs, its the strings, if not taken care of properly or not of the right materials the strings can break causing all manner of damage to the limbs and the user. Crossbows are not silent, not even close, mine sounds like a .22 short being fired and game "jumping the string" is commonplace at extended ranges  (jumping the string is when they hear the string release and move before the bolt arrives).

[Mroz4k]

On 19. 12. 2017 at 3:44 PM, Sunwolf said:

Perhaps you should show a little respect for peoples' ideas.  You're not king here.

Never claimed to be anything like that. But am I not allowed to be annoyed over the fact that many people come to these forums, not bothering to check even the last two pages of suggestions before claiming something that was discussed dozen times before, as if this conversation did not happen a thousand times already?

On 19. 12. 2017 at 3:44 PM, Sunwolf said:

Make it a craftable-only item and, for balance purposes, reduce the effective range dramatically. 

That solves nothing. It is still going to be easily obtained weapon that is accurate. You can literally use bow for this if you wish to - its literally one of the bow techniques of hunting deer to get up close to them and get them as they are running past ya. Besides, HOW would you do this? Would you give it riddiculous curve once it flew, lets say, 10 meters? Because that would SURELY feel immersive. And what would be the point anyways - it would be just different bow. Its clearly a weapon that has very low arcing. Which makes it rather precise to mid range. You cant just have it shoot straight at short distance and then have the bolt just flap flaccidly to the ground. Makes no sense.

On 18. 12. 2017 at 11:04 AM, StrayCat said:

The only weapon I would like to see in the game, would be a weaker rifle.

1

Lets not turn this into discussion about various weapons (even though I suppose I already did that, apologies, wasnt my intention, merely providing alternatives).

While I get your point, and I guess many people would find it appealing, I see two issues with that:

A) its availability. Kind of puts that "weapons are rare to find" aspect out of the equation. If the ammo and the actual gun were common. If only the ammo was common and the rifle was not that easy to find, I guess it would be kind of cool

B) marksman skill. This would be a good way to practise it. Then again, that may just be the point, huh? To first learn with the smaller caliber, before moving on to the bigger guns. And, I suppose, the marksman skill could adapt to this as well, most notably it would take more shots fired to move on to a higher level.

Not a bad idea, really - except about the part with the bigger game. You should not be able to take down anything bigger then a wolf with this. I would say it could be a small game gun, and with wolves, it would wound them, but merely piss them off, not scare them away like the rifle does when its shot. Deer should not be harmed by this (to lower its effectivness) same with bears and moose. It would just piss those off.

On 19. 12. 2017 at 6:21 PM, TerribleSurvivor said:

I would like to see a primitive crossbow obtainable in a hunting blind and some other fitting places (max 3 or 4 spawns per world though).

For balancing issues mentioned above i see a solution looking like this:

First of all, primitive implies it was improvised. That kind of weapon is more likely to be crafted, rather then found.

If we talk strictly immersion, and this weapon could not be made, only found, it wouldnt be primitive, but refined. Or just simply "hunting crossbow". 

You do have a strange understanding of Balance.

1. Thats a bow on basic lvl if I am not mistaken.
2/3. 25 bolts for 100% durability, thats a 4% drop for every bolt shot. Thats merely double the decrease for bow on basic lvl. And with "good damage" thats just really a renewable rifle. Durability wouldnt be as huge of an issue as you think - merely an annoyance. If 60% mark was it, that means you can still fire off 11 bolts out of pristine condition between the drop in dmg would occur. With good damage, thats a dead bear and some leftovers. If skill was applied and head was hit, that would result in pretty high crit chance, too. 11 tries is more then enough for one hunting trip.
4. This is a no. It would require a complete rework of bleeding mechanics. The rule is, if you bleed and cant bind it up, you will bleed out. Players or animals alike. However, I dont believe that bleeding in animals does decrease their condition. It is merely a timed thing that just kills them as it reaches 0. 
5. This is anything BUT balanced - it would make them super easy to make, regardless your equipment, out of 100% easily renewable sources. So no.
6. Props on trying something new, but no. If skill gets involved at all, those detriments put in place lose their value quickly, and we are once again left with an overpowered hunting weapon. But hey, its a good way to raise both of your skills through using of accurate, powerful but extremely fragile weapon.

This would be very powerful, easy to use but annoying weapon due to its high maintenance costs - but if repaired after every hunt, it could easily supplement rifle and the bow at very little cost. It was not balanced at all. But props on trying.

19 hours ago, Mpat120 said:

Crossbows are quite powerful at Short to Mid range, although cumbersome to reload. The one I hunt pigs with is rated at 110 Foot Pounds of energy, enough to take a Cape Buffalo (or just about anything else) at 40 yards (just dont miss, second shots dont happen in that time frame). The largest downfall of crossbows arent the limbs, its the strings, if not taken care of properly or not of the right materials the strings can break causing all manner of damage to the limbs and the user. Crossbows are not silent, not even close, mine sounds like a .22 short being fired and game "jumping the string" is commonplace at extended ranges  (jumping the string is when they hear the string release and move before the bolt arrives).

Good point on the reloading. That is why they would often combine several "crossbow" arms together into one weapon, so they wouldnt have to reload after every single shot. At the same time, some of the bigger crossbows would require pullers to be reloaded, as they were too difficult to reload by hand.

Which got me to an idea - that perhaps reloading of said crossbow would provide a significant hit to players energy. Not good enough to make the weapon balanced but its an interesting mechanic to consider.

As for the argument about sound - naturally it is not silent. Neither are bows - but they are in the game. Considering crossbow would be fired at mid range, it would very well act like a silenced weapon. At short range it would probably result in agro. Naturally, real life is not that easy. Speed of the projectile would also likely be an issue - despite being accurate, you really would have to shoot a bit before the target.

[Mpat120]

3 hours ago, Mroz4k said:

reloading of said crossbow would provide a significant hit to players energy

 

3 hours ago, Mroz4k said:

bigger crossbows would require pullers to be reloaded

I can only speak to the one I use but it requires a rope and pulley aid to draw and cock at 185lb (84ish KG) draw weight and it only reduces the felt weight by 50% or so.  The rope and pulley also helps to center the string and make sure there is even tension on both sides so the bolt flies correctly.

 

3 hours ago, Mroz4k said:

Speed of the projectile would also likely be an issue - despite being accurate, you really would have to shoot a bit before the target.

Again the X-bow I use, exit off the string for the bolt is  370 Feet per Second (113ish M/s) with a quite rapid drop off due to the physics of the bolt (shorter-thicker than a arrow). Game wise they would have to invent a bolt to fire, an arrow for a regular bow cant take the stress of being fired from a X-bow because physics, or it would have to be a found item.

[XAlaskan_420X]

I think a crossbow would be a great addition to the game. I am glad that I am not the only one that had this idea.
As far as my concern with game balance, I will start by saying that: I believe balance is key and you want to keep the game a challenge. You want to de-nerf the crossbow but not to the point of unrealism. That being said, I believe that this would be fine: make it so that it takes at least 2 or more shots to kill large animals (varies between the type of animal). 1 shot to kill the rabbit of coarse, just like the bow.
Moose should take the most bolts to kill (aside from bears). 

Since the large animals would take 2 or more shots, a deer for an example, could run off with a bolt of yours and get lost if you don't successfully track the deer (or other large animal) - maintaining two key challenge elements of: hunting and conserving ammo - both would still be a challenge. Also, the crossbow shouldn't do jack to the bear, considering that the bears in this game are fairly large. 
As far as range and accuracy goes, this is what I believe it should be: Less range than the rifle, but more range than the bow.
Yet having better accuracy than both the rifle and bow (since it is arguably more easier to hold steadily, due to its lightweight).
Now, I have a crossbow pistol in real life and my model in particular has sort of a take-down folding cock method so let me tell you, cross-bows that re-load like this are not quick to reload, you also have to put a new bolt in another reason as to why it wouldn't necessarily be so overpowering in the game. Especially if the type of crossbow added into the game would reload in the same fashion. 

I also think that a shotgun would be a great addition to the game, theoretically we could start with birdshot shells and flare round shells being the only ammo and just see how that alone effects the game and if it does not appear to effect the balance of the game negatively, we could start to add in other shells one at a time. I think this would be a great idea, I think it should allow us to hunt birds. Perhaps other birds should be added into the game, 
maybe duck or Canadian geese, so we can introduce the first poultry meat into the game. (perhaps this is a topic for another time).

I also like the idea of a 9mm pistol since they are so common, that it is almost unrealistic to not have it. 
I like Mroz's idea of remakable ammo, I had this idea myself. You just make gun powder (to balance the game you can make the resources such as sulfur rare), and the single-stage press could be rare, like only a few work tables have it kind of rare.
 

[StrayCat]

11 hours ago, Mroz4k said:

Lets not turn this into discussion about various weapons (even though I suppose I already did that, apologies, wasnt my intention, merely providing alternatives).

While I get your point, and I guess many people would find it appealing, I see two issues with that

You're absolutely right about the off-topic. 
My point is that I would like to use the right tool for the right job. Having a tool that can do everything is boring and a no-brainer. I want to have to make choices before doing anything : do I go outside with a heavy weapon for security, or do I take a light small-caliber rifle with more available ammo but that can't really protect me ? Do I travel with both, or do I choose 1 and get limited afterwards (by limited ammo or by low-power bullets) ? I think a system like this could add variety while keeping the game balanced.

1 hour ago, XAlaskan_420X said:

I also like the idea of a 9mm pistol since they are so common, that it is almost unrealistic to not have it. 

Are they really that common in Canada ?

[TerribleSurvivor]

On 20.12.2017 at 11:00 PM, Mroz4k said:

1. Thats a bow on basic lvl if I am not mistaken.

2/3. 25 bolts for 100% durability, thats a 4% drop for every bolt shot. Thats merely double the decrease for bow on basic lvl. And with "good damage" thats just really a renewable rifle. Durability wouldnt be as huge of an issue as you think - merely an annoyance. If 60% mark was it, that means you can still fire off 11 bolts out of pristine condition between the drop in dmg would occur. With good damage, thats a dead bear and some leftovers. If skill was applied and head was hit, that would result in pretty high crit chance, too. 11 tries is more then enough for one hunting trip.
4. This is a no. It would require a complete rework of bleeding mechanics. The rule is, if you bleed and cant bind it up, you will bleed out. Players or animals alike. However, I dont believe that bleeding in animals does decrease their condition. It is merely a timed thing that just kills them as it reaches 0. 
5. This is anything BUT balanced - it would make them super easy to make, regardless your equipment, out of 100% easily renewable sources. So no.
6. Props on trying something new, but no. If skill gets involved at all, those detriments put in place lose their value quickly, and we are once again left with an overpowered hunting weapon. But hey, its a good way to raise both of your skills through using of accurate, powerful but extremely fragile weapon.

This would be very powerful, easy to use but annoying weapon due to its high maintenance costs - but if repaired after every hunt, it could easily supplement rifle and the bow at very little cost. It was not balanced at all. But props on trying.

Good analysis, props for that but i would have liked to see improved values following it up. Anyways, i will propose the second version of my crossbow:

1. Can stay as it is now

2. stays the same

3. Damage starts dropping at 70%. Requires maintenance with simple tools and one new string made of 1 cured gut.

4. My experience with bleeding is that animal´s HP drop over time (just as yours when bleeding). Anyways, it is not requiring a whole rework for bleeding itself. I would rather add a new affliction pretty similar to bleeding only being caused by crossbow bolts. That´s the easiest way.

5. Yeah, you are probably right. Although i can´t remember a cedar/fir limb respawning ever, i would be way too easy to acquire. Why not forging bolts out of scrap metal instead. This would require a lot more ressources and time with bolts still being single use and not recoverable (unlike arrow heads).

6. Should be more balanced now.

A primitive crossbow doesn´t mean it is improvised. It is more likely to be but still not the same. Even primitive crossbows are hard to craft properly because you need to precisely shape the bolt guidance as well as the limb assembly. Every little mistake leads into nullifying your work so you have to be professional already to craft a working, if primitve, crossbow. That´s beyond the competence of a bush pilot (At least imo). That´s why i would make it obtainable only.

Previous proposion: http://www.hinterlandforums.com/forums/topic/17827-crossbows/?tab=comments#comment-126945

Quote

Good point on the reloading. That is why they would often combine several "crossbow" arms together into one weapon, so they wouldnt have to reload after every single shot. At the same time, some of the bigger crossbows would require pullers to be reloaded, as they were too difficult to reload by hand.

Which got me to an idea - that perhaps reloading of said crossbow would provide a significant hit to players energy. Not good enough to make the weapon balanced but its an interesting mechanic to consider.

This is a good additional proposion to limit crossbow usage. However, i wouldn´t hit the players energy. Pulling that string is not something that requires stamina over a long period of time. I would rather say that the reload time increases more the lower your energy is. Similar to the drop of maximum weight limit when getting exhausted. Being completly out of energy disables your ability to reload at all!

[XAlaskan_420X]

On ‎12‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 4:39 AM, TerribleSurvivor said:

Every little mistake leads into nullifying your work so you have to be professional already to craft a working, if primitve, crossbow. That´s beyond the competence of a bush pilot (At least imo). That´s why i would make it obtainable only.

Those are my thoughts as well. I agree. It would only really make sense if it was obtainable. I guess the debate would be "how rare" should it be. 
Craftable crossbows would only really make sense if they added an update or DLC for creatable characters in survival mode where you can create a character and choose the character background ("Smither", "Fletcher", "Medic" ect and only if you choose "fletcher" can you then craft crossbows).

[Sunwolf]

Oooo, character background!!  I love this.

[Mroz4k]

Lets not bring the bushcraft pilot background into sandbox, that conversation does not work that well, usually. Some say its meant to be this way to argument against opinions of others (I was one of them) - but I find it irrelevant at this point, because we really dont know what the "random person" we start as were doing in their spare time, for hobbies.

On 21. 12. 2017 at 10:30 AM, StrayCat said:

I want to have to make choices before doing anything : do I go outside with a heavy weapon for security, or do I take a light small-caliber rifle with more available ammo but that can't really protect me ? Do I travel with both, or do I choose 1 and get limited afterwards (by limited ammo or by low-power bullets) ? I think a system like this could add variety while keeping the game balanced.

4

That is exactly what I like about your suggestion. But at the same time, we both know that TLD is kind of the game where you don't really have a broad spectrum of choices. At least not yet. My problem with adding more firearms is that there would virtually either have to be much more ammo to be found in different calibres, or the amount of ammo would remain the same but would be split in between the individual calibres, making firearms all the rarer and expensive to use. Best case would be probably something in between, which is something I could probably get behind. Basically having the current amount of ammunition cut down some, less rifles in the game, but there would now be other types of rifles, and based on the rarity, there would be more ammo to be found but it would be of different types.

On 22. 12. 2017 at 2:39 PM, TerribleSurvivor said:

4. My experience with bleeding is that animal´s HP drop over time (just as yours when bleeding).

http://thelongdark.wikia.com/wiki/Hunting

If that was true, the bleeding wounds would not reset the way they do here. It's a timed occurrence. I've done a test myself - found a wolf that was about to bleed out (it was walking slowly like they do right before they drop down) - and shot him again. If they had HP going down, it would kill the poor sot instantly as it was not supposed to have more then few % of HP. Instead, his behavior retriggered the "escape behavior" - he ran off further from me, and then slowed down again, and died of bleeding right after. So no, animals that are about to bleed out still have full "HP". Another shot right after will not bring them down unless its a critical hit.

Unless this changed recently but I doubt that because someone would have mentioned that by now on Forums.

On 22. 12. 2017 at 2:39 PM, TerribleSurvivor said:

5. Yeah, you are probably right. Although i can´t remember a cedar/fir limb respawning ever

There are forest zones in the game which spawn randomly limbs and sticks. They spawn more or less periodically, or after a blizzard, there always seem to be new ones outside.

Not going to argue all the points  - 70% is really not that different from 60%, instead of 11 bolts that would be 9 bolts, maybe 8. Repairs were not the issue because you always propose "in field repairs" with simple tools, thats is the problem. As long as you carry a set of tools with you, you can repair it anywhere. It makes the "durability drops the damage" point kind of less relevant. I would guess that most players would simply use the bow with a bit decreased damage, and at some point, they would simply repair it to regain the use of, let's say, 20 bolts per repair. You see the issue here - if this was to make them "viable", you really would have to repair the crossbow after 5 fired shots otherwise it would be too good to use. And 5 shots is really not realistic. (Basically, only the first bolt would do full damage, second one less, third less, fourth one would do nearly nothing, fifth one even less).

On 22. 12. 2017 at 2:39 PM, TerribleSurvivor said:

A primitive crossbow doesn´t mean it is improvised. It is more likely to be but still not the same. Even primitive crossbows are hard to craft properly because you need to precisely shape the bolt guidance as well as the limb assembly. Every little mistake leads into nullifying your work so you have to be professional already to craft a working, if primitve, crossbow. That´s beyond the competence of a bush pilot (At least imo). That´s why i would make it obtainable only.

If you want obtainable only crossbow, we will be talking about the synthetic ones, as the wooden, more primitive one would be very rare in the Canadian woods. Those are the kind of weapons you would find in Europe, but not really in Americas, as those were only really used by medieval enthusiasts. As for synthetic one, that is basically a rifle in the game. It would not be repairable, not with the tools in the game. And it could not fire bolts that are crafted because as far as I know, the pull strength in the synthetic crossbows is too powerful for your average wooden bolt. But others will know more about that than me.

As for the "wooden crossbow" - I've build a toy one once, and I expect that for an "Improvised" version, the real deal would not be that terribly difficult either. It wouldnt have the precision of the medieval weapon crafted by a professional, but as far as the crafting goes, even an amateur could tinker around with it a bit, test it out, and polish it out into a pretty able mode. This argument could be applied to a bow - do you think most people would be capable of building a bow, if they have never crafted a bow before, and that bow would be able to take down a deer? Most people would build something that looks like a bow, but shoots maybe 5 meters and hardly sticks to a target. If you want a bow for hunting, crafting one like that would be way beyond the experience of average person, they would need to know how to do it properly, where to carve the bow to shape, how to remove the bark precisely to leave the hardened wood layer intact, to prevent the bow from cracking by not being drawn equally. How to balance it, and more.

 I think crafting of a crossbow with the use of simple tools, and a hacksaw for metal and some forged nails (and crossbow metal headpiece) would be very realistic, even for a somewhat industrious fella who only has a mediocre understanding of how crossbow looks like.

On 22. 12. 2017 at 2:39 PM, TerribleSurvivor said:

6. Should be more balanced now.

It's really not, not even close.

On 24. 12. 2017 at 3:56 AM, XAlaskan_420X said:

Those are my thoughts as well. I agree. It would only really make sense if it was obtainable. I guess the debate would be "how rare" should it be. 
Craftable crossbows would only really make sense if they added an update or DLC for creatable characters in survival mode where you can create a character and choose the character background ("Smither", "Fletcher", "Medic" ect and only if you choose "fletcher" can you then craft crossbows).

Ugh. Do you even know what fletcher means? Fletcher makes arrows and bolts, not the actual weapon like crossbow. Also, who even is a fletcher these days? Smith I can still get behind, but fletcher? That's a long-dead profession. Make no sense for the modern world, apart of being a hobby. Crossbows were made by a joint effort of smiths and carpenters. Carpenter would make the parts for the crossbow, smith would assemble them together. And not just any smith, it would be someone who specializes in weapons, and carpenter specialist as well. 

That idea has been discussed before and I stand with the majority that I dont want to see an option in the game to adjust the "player" to be adept in something before hitting the ground in TLD. You get to learn everything from the scratch, thats kind of half the fun in the game.

 

[XAlaskan_420X]

8 hours ago, Mroz4k said:

Ugh. Do you even know what fletcher means? Fletcher makes arrows and bolts, not the actual weapon like crossbow. Also, who even is a fletcher these days? Smith I can still get behind, but fletcher? That's a long-dead profession. Make no sense for the modern world, apart of being a hobby. Crossbows were made by a joint effort of smiths and carpenters. Carpenter would make the parts for the crossbow, smith would assemble them together. And not just any smith, it would be someone who specializes in weapons, and carpenter specialist as well. 

Yes, I am aware that making a bow or a cross-bow is not actually "fletching". 
However, I don't think it is too much of a stretch that a fletcher might know how to make a bow or a crossbow. Think about it. Arrows and bolts are useless without a bow or cross-bow, thus a fletcher would have an incentive or reason to want to learn how to make a proper bow or crossbow. (Not necessarily primitive, but not necessarily high-end either). 

This is being said,
I DO think that a carpenter would also be a good addition to the choices of character background. A carpenter can make stash boxes for storing items, ice boxes for storing food and maybe a work table. 
I still think that character background is a good idea for sandbox mode.
and who starts off in the wilderness with no background anyways? Even the default sandbox characters 'knows' that reishi mushrooms can be used for tea. Where did he/she learn that? hmmm.

It must have been from somewhere.

Character background is unavoidable. Even if you the player don't get to choose it.

[private duksworth]

Everyone calm down I thought of the crossbow idea as many families in Canada own one and myself own a trusty crossbow to use so I just thought of the idea as a surgestion so please don’t be angry at another comment like this ok thanks

[deathbydanish]

On 12/19/2017 at 7:44 AM, Sunwolf said:

Perhaps you should show a little respect for peoples' ideas.  You're not king here.

I don't think Mroz4k is trying to come off like that, he's just expressing his opinion. I would say you would be more justified in saying that if he misrepresented his opinion as fact. But in my experience even though I disagree with his stance on firearms, I haven't found him to be misrepresenting his opinions as facts.

[private duksworth]

ok thanks

[dragonslayer587]

I think that it could be possible to habe a crossbow in game.. just needs some negative points to balance it... I am talking about the improvised crossbow..

Someone said to give stamima cost per reload.. that is a nice way to limit its use..

Make bolts heavier than arrows and harder to craft.. 

Make the crossbow heavy.. like 2.5-3.5kg

Make it hard to craft at the forge... dont know exactly how but could help to balance it..

Someone said that the strings decay really fast.. make it lose condition faster and more with use... could maybe be hard to repair (quality or simple tools only?)

And last... if we think it uses the Archery skill, put requirement to use.. like lvl 3 Archery or more... to really have it like a nice choice but it is reaaly harder to obtain it and (not less so) maintain it.. 

I think that in late game runs it wouldnt be so problematic to have a nice weapon since by that time u already should be well set for surviving...

That is a the suggestions that come to my mind... iff someone finds another pls comment and share ur ideas

I love crossbows and I would llve to see them ingame even if they are not that bad weapon and I think that as a community we can suggest lots of ideas to make it a nice, viable and balanced option to add to this beatiful game