Sleeping on the floor

[korxete]

As simple as it sounds. I can't see why we can not sleep on the floor when we don't have access to a sleeping bag or bed (Carter Dam interloper mode), when we are lying by a fire. The temperature is just more than adequate, and sleeping on the floor is definitely better than DYING because of weariness. We are condemned to roam the indoors at night until we die holding a lamp. 

[Mroz4k]

No. The answer is obvious. If this was a possibility, there would be no reason to have bedrolls in the first place. And it would make the game incredibly easy.

If you have this issue and don't have a bedroll, either find a car to sleep in or build a snow shelter - you can sleep inside of it too, and build a campfire by it for the temperature boost. But absolutely no for the idea of sleeping on the floor - I want the game to become more challenging, not incredibly easy.

[StrayCat]

Well, it should be possible, at least because it seems logical that one would sleep anywhere if tired enough. BUT sleeping on the ground should also have major (cumulative ?) drawbacks to keep it balanced ; here are some ideas :
- less (or no) condition recovered during this sleep ;
- low fatigue recovery ;
- risk of backache if sleeping inside on the floor : affliction that could lower the weight Will can carry by 5 kg for 1 day, cured with pain killers ;
- risk of being woken up by a wolf attack if sleeping outside (best alarm clock ever ) ;
- risk of frostbite if sleeping on the snow.

The upside of adding this mecanism is that it would allow to implemente forced sleeping : if Will is too tired, he may fall down on the ground and go into a forced sleep for 1-2h, with all the risks induced.

[nicko]

I doubt they make it happen. probably to many variables. It's a game after all  and who wants to micro manage sleeping.  I guess the sleep in a bed or bag is easy and makes sense for this game.

 

[Fuarian]

7 hours ago, Mroz4k said:

No. The answer is obvious. If this was a possibility, there would be no reason to have bedrolls in the first place. And it would make the game incredibly easy.

If you have this issue and don't have a bedroll, either find a car to sleep in or build a snow shelter - you can sleep inside of it too, and build a campfire by it for the temperature boost. But absolutely no for the idea of sleeping on the floor - I want the game to become more challenging, not incredibly easy.

Make it have negative effects. Like making you colder or decreasing your feels like temperature. Give you a "poor rest" affliction. Plus it actually makes no sense to not be able to do this.

[Mroz4k]

First, and the most important aspect why this is not going to get into the game:
It makes the game easy. Regardless of what the punishment is going to be, if you can sleep out on the ground anywhere, you are no longer punished for not taking bedroll with you/forgetting it at the base. This is good enough reason not to have it in the game.

Additionally, I think a lot of you are grossly underestimating what it means to sleep outside, or even inside, on the ground. The surface of the ground will be cold, even indoors, because the outside is horribly cold. And ground conducts heat a lot. So, you would lose the majority of your body heat in a very short time, because of it.This is WHY you need a thick layer of sticks and branches or grasses (straw) on the ground to sleep on when building a shelter. Because it will significantly reduce the heat lost this way.

This is guaranteed by bedroll. The bedroll is water resistant (wetness increases heat conduction 2-3 times), on top of that in the bedroll, your own body heat will warm the inside and help keep you warm this way. And the insulation in it will reduce the heat conduction.

Having to build the expensive snow shelter just to sleep without bedroll is actually a balanced mechanic. It punishes you for not taking the bedroll with you/not having one. Instead, you need to spend a lot of resources on a temporary bedroll option instead.

On 10/19/2017 at 2:31 PM, StrayCat said:

forced sleeping : if Will is too tired, he may fall down on the ground and go into a forced sleep for 1-2h, with all the risks induced.

this I can actually get behind. It would not be a voluntary option, but rather a detriment mechanic - you can pass out at any point if you were too exhausted for too long of a time - and just sleeping for hour or two this way, being forced, would be very dangerous.

[Prestermatt]

On 10/23/2017 at 9:35 AM, Mroz4k said:

Additionally, I think a lot of you are grossly underestimating what it means to sleep outside, or even inside, on the ground. The surface of the ground will be cold, even indoors, because the outside is horribly cold. And ground conducts heat a lot. So, you would lose the majority of your body heat in a very short time, because of it.

Right.  So, allow us to sleep on the ground, but with a massive temperature penalty.  There are times when it is relatively warm outside and you are wearing enough warm clothes that sleeping on the ground for an hour should be feasible.  What's the difference between wearing a bearskin coat plus an expedition parka versus wearing a t-shirt and  using a bedroll?

If the temperature penalty is high enough, then it gives us the option when we're willing to take the risk without removing the fact that you're better off just bringing the bedroll.

I'd rather play a game that is realistic but flexible than a game that creates artificial constraints to make it more challenging.

[Mroz4k]

23 hours ago, Prestermatt said:

What's the difference between wearing a bearskin coat plus an expedition parka versus wearing a t-shirt and  using a bedroll?

Huge one, actually. 

On 10/23/2017 at 4:35 PM, Mroz4k said:

in the bedroll, your own body heat will warm the inside and help keep you warm this way

Unless you literally taped all your clothes together to create a jumpsuit of a sort and sealed off all the airways, you would still lose a lot of heat because your body heat would be leaving through them.

And you are completely missing the point that sleeping on the ground voluntarily would make the game too easy. What difference does it make if you sleep for an hour or more? The way game works, if you could sleep for an hour like this, then you can literally sleep for an hour like this again and again and again, and as long as you are sleeping by a fireplace, your negative aspects would be negated by the fire. Which brings us to the point that it would be literally possible to sleep this way, safely, without a bedroll. Which, again, is a bad thing.

Besides, sleeping in two layers of clothes is not very smart. Once you sweated through your inner layer, the outer one would be wet from the ground, and once again, you are losing body heat fast. The difference between bedroll and clothes is that bedroll is not in direct contact with your body, there is an air capsule that serves as insulation. Clothes are in contact with your skin. 

[Zzarchov]

On 10/25/2017 at 11:28 AM, Mroz4k said:

And you are completely missing the point that sleeping on the ground voluntarily would make the game too easy.  

So, I'll ignore all the bits about sleeping without a bedroll on an actual real world example (which is a different point),

Its a game about wilderness survival, if you put things in that are artificial and magical difficulty that isn't a good thing.  If a bug made it so that you needed to burn your hands every day or you died, it is true that fixing it would make the game easier .. but that doesn't matter, the point isn't to make the game difficult.

The point is to make a game that is difficult in a way that is intuitive to the subject matter.  Dying of weariness after one day with a full belly does not intuitively make sense, it is artificial difficulty.  I agree it should be a terrible idea of desperation,  akin to eating uncooked meat or drinking unboiled water, but no one dies on their feet from exhaustion on day two of being in the woods.  They may pass out and freeze to death (or be eaten), but they don't die from the exhaustion itself.  Maybe sleeping without a bedroll has a -10 C impact, who knows.

There may be ways it could be abused and so you could have other ways of making the same thing less of a problem,  like perhaps you can break down cardboard boxes into a sleeping mat which itself is garbage (even perhaps with a negative temperature) if you are worried about gear weight being too easy to manage without a bedroll in the mix.

[Boston123]

1 hour ago, Zzarchov said:

 

There may be ways it could be abused and so you could have other ways of making the same thing less of a problem,  like perhaps you can break down cardboard boxes into a sleeping mat which itself is garbage (even perhaps with a negative temperature) if you are worried about gear weight being too easy to manage without a bedroll in the mix.

Cardboard, so long as it doesn't get wet, is actually a pretty decent insulator

[cekivi]

Welcome to the forums @Zzarchov, @FrozenCorpse, and @korxete

Sadly, for the game balance reasons @Mroz4k outlined it is very unlikely that sleeping anywhere will be allowed. Especially now that snow shelters are in the game. 

[JohnDoe60]

On 11/11/2017 at 9:10 AM, Zzarchov said:

break down cardboard boxes into a sleeping mat which itself is garbage (even perhaps with a negative temperature) if you are worried about gear weight being too easy to manage without a bedroll in the mix.

That seems a more natural use for all those boxes than turning them into tinder. A layer or two of corrugated cardboard makes a huge difference when sleeping on a cold surface, and that use was the first thought which popped to mind when I saw them.

I'm not looking to sleep anywhere, but my "hardcore" nature leans me towards having a variety of blankets, sleeping bags, and ground sheets instead of a bedroll. Even just having the option to huddle under a blanket in places where the sturdy cardboard boxes exist could lead to some interesting survival situations, or be a storytelling vehicle.

[codfish107]

On 11/11/2017 at 11:10 AM, Zzarchov said:

Its a game about wilderness survival, if you put things in that are artificial and magical difficulty that isn't a good thing.

I would suggest that can of worms be left closed. There are an endless amount of arguments you could get into based off of why "x" is like this in the game when it is really like this in real life, for better or for worse.

I think sleeping without a bedroll would require a severe negative that isn't heat related, a heat related negative is too easily canceled out by a fire. I don't think it would very balanced otherwise.

On 10/19/2017 at 8:31 AM, StrayCat said:

if Will is too tired, he may fall down on the ground and go into a forced sleep for 1-2h

I do like that idea. Have the mechanic work like hypothermia, the longer you are exhausted, the higher of a percent chance you have of collapsing. 

[cekivi]

On ‎2017‎-‎11‎-‎15 at 9:39 PM, JohnDoe60 said:

I'm not looking to sleep anywhere, but my "hardcore" nature leans me towards having a variety of blankets, sleeping bags, and ground sheets instead of a bedroll. Even just having the option to huddle under a blanket in places where the sturdy cardboard boxes exist could lead to some interesting survival situations, or be a storytelling vehicle.

Totally agree but, again, unlikely to happen