Ideas for the future of Wintermute. (something for HL to consider moving forward) WARNING LONG POST

[Fuarian]

As we all know the launch of Wintermute wasn't the greatest. Bugs happen and were resolved (for the most part). But many people still seem to have negative feelings towards the first two episodes of Wintermute. 

1. First off; the tutorial nature. In Episode 1 we have an actual well thought out tutorial. But it's still tutorial like the further in you go. The obvious example is Jeramiah's Survival School. This should be optional BUT have rewards. For example; you shouldn't be able to harvest mushrooms, cat tails and all that stuff until Jeramiah tells you about it. Like how you couldn't harvest rosehips before you sprain your ankle on Day 4 of Episode 1. THIS is Mackenzie's Knowledge. If knowledge can help you survive then why not make it optional. The whole theme of TLD is suffering in a world that's been torn to shreds by Mother Nature. So making this knowledge optional to make the game harder would be a great way to portray this theme in terms of gameplay. If the player decides to not do these side missions then they not only will not unlock that knowledge (and have a disadvantage) but also have to boost Jeramiah's trust in order to get the Old Bear mission faster. 

Old Bear Mission: This should be availiable right away after the Fix My Rifle mission but should be harder. You should have to look for the Old Bear instead of having him come to you first. If you do the Survival School optional missions then (for the sake of gameplay balancing) it will play out as it does now. The outcome of these two approaches will be the same. 

Now what happens if someone decides not to do Survival School and doesn't get the availiable knowledge of harvesting plants etc...? A new gameplay system! 

1b. Knowledge Points; these points are gained after doing certain tasks you already know how to do. Stuff that helps you survive. Even helping out other people. Once you get enough knowledge points you can "unlock" new knowledge without needing an NPC Quest. For example; if you didn't do Survival School then later down the line (if you the player are up for it) if you have enough KP you can walk up to let's say a Reishi Mushroom and pick it. Whereas previously Mackenzie didn't have that knowledge. This can be seen as Mackenzie learning through his environment without the need of another person. Like he did for Rosehips initially. 

What does this do in the end? It allows for more diverse play. More diverse choices. And that will allow for less Fetch Questing or at least the feeling of linearity. 

2. Dialogue; we know that dialogue is very bland right now. It's text-based and there's no choice. Now I understand that it would be very difficult for incorporate full on dialogue cutscenes for everything that Mackenzie and another person has to say. But we don't need that. How about voice the two characters speaking with very "crude" animation? Doesn't have to be a cutscene. In some cases you could even throw in a 2D motion cutscene with another character talking over it. 

2b. Interactive Dialogue; originally we had been teased with a TellTale style dialogue system. As seen here. This can still work. But for another type of NPC. Dialogue based-NPC's. Like Methuselah is/was. All he did was talk through a cutscene with no quest motives or anything like that. He was no "central-NPC" like Jerry or Grey Mother. And I think we need more of that. Give us a choice of how we wanna approach the Episode. Maybe we can choose to go the "central-NPC" route or we can go the Dialogue-NPC route. The only difference will be the knowledge you earn (balanced out with the KP system) and the pacing of the Episode and nature of quests you receive. 

2c; Dialogue-NPC's w/ Quests. I think some Dialogue NPC's should have quests. Example; "I saw something the night the lights went out." "Sounded like a plane". This is hinting towards TWM Plane Crash. Maybe this will be a side quest you could take. Or you could say "I don't have time for this." and leave. Ignoring the quest. There's much more room for this feature I think.

2d; pacing w/ dialogue only NPC's. This will be tricky. The "Central-NPC" pacing is what keeps the Episode going. You meet and NPC, they tell you do to something in reward with information about the whereabouts of Astrid. It's this urgency that keeps us going. But the further we go into the Apocalypse the less urgency we'll be getting. This will allow for more flexibility in our actions in the world. So when Mackenzie gets to Signal Hill and gets that message out he'll eventually have to get to Perserverance Mills on foot. But perhaps the road will be blocked off, (most likely) forcing him to take another route to PM. The only other route I can think of is through Coastal Highway. But here's what you need to pull in order to pace this correctly; if you don't meet the "Central-NPC" in time they might die. And that will no longer be an option. So Dialogue-NPC's will be the only option. After completeting some side-quests for them you can learn some important knowledge about how to get to CH. But before you do that Mackenzie will say "I'd better stay on the task at hand" or whatever. Not allowing you to progress. So unless you are willing to work your way to using some Knowledge Points you will be forced to do some form of NPC action. But it won't be linear as you'll have some choice. 

2e; Voice Acting and Dialogue Quality with Dialogue-NPC's. So we all know that the quality of the writing in Wintermute may not be the best (it's also subjective, biased and opinion based). But a good way around this is to balance it out with newer dialogue with Dialogue-NPC's. All HL needs to do is hire some lesser voice actors instead of this extremely expensive cast. Then they can go about and write some newer dialogue taking into consideration the past opinions on it. With lesser paid VA's this won't be much of a troublesome task. Plus you can get more VA into some side characters accounting for point #2. 

3. Combat; This one is tricky. But the kickstarter page said it best. "Combat is rare and highly lethal." And it should be. You should be able to run into Enemy NPC's from time to time. Maybe have there be a random sequence out of a few that can happen per Wintermute save. And maybe have there be a couple cases of combat that's caused by your actions. (take the ammo from the Forest Talker for example will cause a combat scenario like this. Choosing to kill people shouldn't have an affect on Mackenzie. The problem here is that the "Willpower" or Mental State feature was not implemented. It wouldn't fit with the pacing of Wintermute. And I can't think of a good way to implement that. However saving someone from an enemy will grant you KP's and maybe even a quest or item or knowledge. Or even Trust if HL can incorporate Dialogue-NPC's with Enemy NPC's. It may not be as complex as it is here. But I'd like to see something like this in the future. Especially considering we have Mathis introduced and the apocalypse is going further downhill. 

3b; Execution of Combat. I'm thinking that when Combat ensues something should happen. I don't think it should be a cutscene but rather and interactive choice based on the situation. For example; the example I linked above. In that case a wheel should pop up giving you the option to attack with A; Melee (wolf struggle melee selection here) B; Rifle or Bow or C; disengage and walk away. There'll be a time limit here. Based on the situation, once the limit is exceeded and the NPC is dead the attackers may come for you (weather, wildlife, surroundings etc... are all factors if they'll do that or not.) If you choose to attack melee then a cutscene (2D animation would be simpler to implement) will play. If you choose Ranged then you can do it as gameplay. (maybe for the Bear Attack in Episode 1?!?!) and if you choose C; then you can simply walk away. Walking back towards the area will cause the choice to happen again. This is just for those types of situations. For simplicity's sake I think Combat should only happen in those situation anyways. Animation would be hard to accomplish though. So idk about this one. 

4. Difficulty Mode; People have complained about it being too easy, too hard etc... So I have a solution. For the veteran players. A harder difficulty setting. Food, Clothing and other supplies will be harder to find. Wolves will be tougher but more rare (god damn wolves in Milton holy shit). And the weather will be worse. Currently right now the first Episode I find too easy for me and other veteran players agree. For newer players a difficulty mode should be featuring the current difficulty as it is now. The harder difficulty should also feature no tutorial (and should state that upon starting). 

4b. Increasing Difficulty; As the apocalypse goes on it will be harder to survive. I think that by Episode 4-5 the difficulties shouldn't have an overall impact as the difficulty of survival would balance out to be quite tough for both difficulties. (let's be honest, Interloper and Pilgrim wouldn't work 4 months into the apocalypse for the sake of Story balancing). In terms of what will change though. I have some ideas;

A; wildlife will be more scarce B; resources will be more scarce C; weather and temperature will get worse D; people will be rarer to encounter (good in terms of development resources and time) and E; it will be tougher in general and add more diversity and quality to the Story Mode. 

5. How far will you go to survive? This video in short explains what the Story of TLD should feel like. A struggle in a post-digital world. The tone was perfect and that's what Wintermute should have. This need to go further to survive. Instead of sitting on our asses doing things for other people while eating cans of food and drinking sodas all day long. We should have a choice about how to approach moving forward, have the constant need to survive and collect resources, have the constant threat of other people and the environment and overall have this tone and an answer to that question. All of the things mentioned above add to this. Sure some of it may be hard to acheive but are possible. And I think that if HL takes the time to incorporate at least SOME of these things, Wintermute can be a much more enjoyable and memorable experience. (Even Survival Mode needs a bit of this because I don't feel that either over there).

5b; I also feel like this is coming based on Methuselah's "Soon, we'll all be tested. We'll have to choose HOW FAR WE'LL GO TO SURVIVE." quote. And then we have Mackenzie saying "I'm no hero, I'm just looking for someone. TRYING TO SURVIVE in the meantime." 

Anyways. Hope you all enjoyed my few ideas on how to make Wintermute better. If anybody wants I can go into further detail with some of these ideas. And I also hope Hinterland takes the time to read this and learns from this going forward.

That's all. -Fuarian

[DaImp]

Some really great ideas. I think making the storyline less linear would be widely appreciated. I love the concept of Knowledge Points that you have to earn in order to pick up survival knowledge. That would make the storyline more challenging and add relevance to all the tasks you are given. Out of all the points you raised/suggested it is the KP that really stand out for me. 

[Fuarian]

6 minutes ago, DaImp said:

Some really great ideas. I think making the storyline less linear would be widely appreciated. I love the concept of Knowledge Points that you have to earn in order to pick up survival knowledge. That would make the storyline more challenging and add relevance to all the tasks you are given. Out of all the points you raised/suggested it is the KP that really stand out for me. 

Yeah, I can really think on how this could be expanded upon. It leads to more diverse and expansive ways of playing and makes it less linear. So it's great. 

[Frosty]

It really says a lot about a game when it generates enthusiasm like this and brings out the creative side of people.

Firstly, I agree Wintermute has issues that need to be addressed, but I also believe that as players who love this game we really need to reign in and even lower our expectations a bit. I say this as a long time gamer and a realist who has researched Hinterland and their goals moving forward. This is a kick starter game developed by a small Indie team and however talented they may be they have limitations in what they can accomplish in various aspects beyond the technical and financial. 

I am not an expert on video game development, I only acknowledge that it's easier said than done in most cases in terms of technical achievement in this industry. I say to myself while playing - "Why didn't they do that or implement this, how hard can it be?" Well I am sure it's far more complicated than anyone not involved in the industry can comprehend. This shouldn't mean we should stop dreaming, browsing the Wishlist you will find many grand ideas most of which I would say are beyond realistic expectations or even contradictory to the style of gameplay itself but we can dream right

Secondly, while not my intention to diminish anyone's creative ideas espicially when so well presented and thought out, I would think that they've thought of much grander ideas for the game than even enthusiastic players who love this game can imagine.

But making the concept a reality is something else altogether and as developers they too must always be managing their own expectations for what they can actually accomplish, espicially when time is not on their side as they need to meet deadlines and satisfy their customers.

If we look at the Road map we can see all the things they want to make a reality in the game because they want to deliver the best experience to their players that they're capable of doing. Personally from a business perspective I would say that releasing that Road map was a terrible idea as it only fueled the already high expectations that early access players had for the game and judging from Hinterland's recent statements I am sure they regret it now.

Now before I make a no doubt unpopular statement I want to assure everyone here that I mean no disrespect to anyone and it is merely my assessment of the situation based on evidence from statements etc: The community/players are partly to blame for the current state the game is in whether we want to admit it or not. High expectations and impatience over the past years during development has resulted in Hinterland releasing the game when it was not fully prepared to do so. I know it's easy for someone to say who hasn't been backing the game through kick starter or even playing during early access but it is my opinion on the matter.

Regarding the future tailoring of Wintermute and new seasons, I highly doubt anything will change to the drastic measure some of us would like to see but that shouldn't stop any of us from sharing our ideas however unbelievable or impossible they may be technically to achieve in reality

[Fuarian]

10 minutes ago, Frosty said:

It really says a lot about a game when it generates enthusiasm like this and brings out the creative side of people.

Firstly, I agree Wintermute has issues that need to be addressed, but I also believe that as players who love this game we really need to reign in and even lower our expectations a bit. I say this as a long time gamer and a realist who has researched Hinterland and their goals moving forward. This is a kick starter game developed by a small Indie team and however talented they may be they have limitations in what they can accomplish in various aspects beyond the technical and financial. 

I am not an expert on video game development, I only acknowledge that it's easier said than done in most cases in terms of technical achievement in this industry. I say to myself while playing - "Why didn't they do that or implement this, how hard can it be?" Well I am sure it's far more complicated than anyone not involved in the industry can comprehend. This shouldn't mean we should stop dreaming, browsing the Wishlist you will find many grand ideas most of which I would say are beyond realistic expectations or even contradictory to the style of gameplay itself but we can dream right

Secondly, while not my intention to diminish anyone's creative ideas espicially when so well presented and thought out, I would think that they've thought of much grander ideas for the game than even enthusiastic players who love this game can imagine.

But making the concept a reality is something else altogether and as developers they too must always be managing their own expectations for what they can actually accomplish, espicially when time is not on their side as they need to meet deadlines and satisfy their customers.

If we look at the Road map we can see all the things they want to make a reality in the game because they want to deliver the best experience to their players that they're capable of doing. Personally from a business perspective I would say that releasing that Road map was a terrible idea as it only fueled the already high expectations that early access players had for the game and judging from Hinterland's recent statements I am sure they regret it now.

Now before I make a no doubt unpopular statement I want to assure everyone here that I mean no disrespect to anyone and it is merely my assessment of the situation based on evidence from statements etc: The community/players are partly to blame for the current state the game is in whether we want to admit it or not. High expectations and impatience over the past years during development has resulted in Hinterland releasing the game when it was not fully prepared to do so. I know it's easy for someone to say who hasn't been backing the game through kick starter or even playing during early access but it is my opinion on the matter.

Regarding the future tailoring of Wintermute and new seasons, I highly doubt anything will change to the drastic measure some of us would like to see but that shouldn't stop any of us from sharing our ideas however unbelievable or impossible they may be technically to achieve in reality

Yeah, I think a lot of things won't be added because of that. But certain little things just to polish up pacing like my Knowledge Points idea is not too hard to get right and can easily be done. The little things do make a difference.

Also these things don't have to be right away. Long term they can work on voicing and animating various side-NPC's. Doesn't have to be rushed for Episode 3 or anything.

[Frosty]

23 minutes ago, Fuarian said:

Yeah, I think a lot of things won't be added because of that. But certain little things just to polish up pacing like my Knowledge Points idea is not too hard to get right and can easily be done. The little things do make a difference.

Also these things don't have to be right away. Long term they can work on voicing and animating various side-NPC's. Doesn't have to be rushed for Episode 3 or anything.

Ya I like that idea a lot

My musings with issues with Wintermute aren't as extensive and thought out as yours but my main disappointment is the item/ability restrictions and how the story so far is the tutorial for the game.

My argument is that most bush pilots espicially the Alaskan ones are already trained in the event of being placed in a survival situation in the wilderness and the game is portrayed in a post apocalyptic setting so if Mckenzie is still breathing he must have some level of experience/knowledge at least enough to fish for example

They also no doubt have a pocket size survival handbook with tons of knowledge on how to do so many things in the wild in terms of improvisation that will assist their survival - such as snare and trap techniques, images of toxic and acceptable plant life for safe identification and consumption  etc.

The beginning tutorial along with perhaps gun knowledge and Jerimiahs info about Bears is really the only other tutorial elements that should have been involved further within the story for example imo

They could've had Mckenzie have the survival handbook in his pocket and during the opening tutorial familiarize the player with its contents and have it readily accessible from that point on to assist the player. How do I make arrows? Well it shows images of birch and what is required for tools in constructing them under the crafting section within the handbook.

Pop up tip windows for info on certain things while en route to Milton would still be helpful, and by limiting what you involve in training for the player during the pace of the story would have allowed for it to not be so linear and restrictive in terms of gameplay progression.

This is why I believe they did what they did in that regard. If the player is already prepared with the knowledge required to survive, the story would have needed to be accelerated and new mechanics/ideas within the story mode would have been needed to be introduced sooner, such as fighting other NPC'S for example or whatever they have planned.

Again I restate my opnion that they just didn't have the time/resources to accomplish this realistically within the deadline and what we got was what we have presently which most players based on observation are not pleased with 

[Fuarian]

1 hour ago, Frosty said:

Ya I like that idea a lot

My musings with issues with Wintermute aren't as extensive and thought out as yours but my main disappointment is the item/ability restrictions and how the story so far is the tutorial for the game.

My argument is that most bush pilots espicially the Alaskan ones are already trained in the event of being placed in a survival situation in the wilderness and the game is portrayed in a post apocalyptic setting so if Mckenzie is still breathing he must have some level of experience/knowledge at least enough to fish for example

They also no doubt have a pocket size survival handbook with tons of knowledge on how to do so many things in the wild in terms of improvisation that will assist their survival - such as snare and trap techniques, images of toxic and acceptable plant life for safe identification and consumption  etc.

The beginning tutorial along with perhaps gun knowledge and Jerimiahs info about Bears is really the only other tutorial elements that should have been involved further within the story for example imo

They could've had Mckenzie have the survival handbook in his pocket and during the opening tutorial familiarize the player with its contents and have it readily accessible from that point on to assist the player. How do I make arrows? Well it shows images of birch and what is required for tools in constructing them under the crafting section within the handbook.

Pop up tip windows for info on certain things while en route to Milton would still be helpful, and by limiting what you involve in training for the player during the pace of the story would have allowed for it to not be so linear and restrictive in terms of gameplay progression.

This is why I believe they did what they did in that regard. If the player is already prepared with the knowledge required to survive, the story would have needed to be accelerated and new mechanics/ideas within the story mode would have been needed to be introduced sooner, such as fighting other NPC'S for example or whatever they have planned.

Again I restate my opnion that they just didn't have the time/resources to accomplish this realistically within the deadline and what we got was what we have presently which most players based on observation are not pleased with 

Well if Mackenzie knew everything it would be kinda boring. If the player were given the choice to "unlock" various bits of knowledge through NPC interaction or by going their own way it would be much more interesting. And survival school quest was more for Mackenzie to prove to Jeramiah that he's capable of surviving. Not that Mackenzie doesn't know certain things. But again I think it should be optional and the game should restrict you from doing certain things until you've learned them. That isn't a tutorial. (It would be interesting in Sandbox as well.)