Ideas to balance fishing

[TheHunter280]

As we all know fishing is quite OP for what it is visually, a simple hook with no bait who can catch fish with the unknown power of canadian magic.

It's normal to spend calories with random result with the chance to loose your tool but what kind fish will bite an empty hook, we must pay a higher price for those fishes

Mechanic balance

The bait method should be the most rewarding due to extra work put in, the spoon become the intermediate between cheap and efficiency and artificial fly to be the poor man alternative, to summarize :

Bait>Spoon>Fly

 

Items

-Bait

It could be scraped from food (Cat tail and liquids non-included), you select by the calories you want to invest in 25 by 25 (Bait can be considerate as a food and tool item) you can eat it with a high chance to get food poisoning (If you are really desperate)

Ruined just mean you can't eat it

   -Use 0.01 Kg per use for fishing

   -Ratio Calorie/Weight : 2500 Calories / Kg

-Spoon

It is craftable at the workbench for 1 crap metal to create 2 spoons

   -Weght : 0.03 Kg

   -Craft time : 20 minutes

-Spoon Line

Craftable with a line and a spoon at any place, it work like the old tackle but you can't sew with it (At least they can be stackable) and it's chance to catch lower

   -Craft time : 10 minutes

   -Weight : 0.04 Kg

-(Optionally and alternatively) Artificial Fly

Crafted with a feather, a line and a fishing tackle anywhere, you can do the same as a spoon but with less chance to catch a fish with it, you can't sew with it and you can only catch the small fish

   -Craft time : 15 minutes

   -Weight : 0.03 Kg

Minor ideas and thought

I hope this suggestion to be balanced, reasonable and make the game harder in the long run

It could add a lure box which work like ammo and artificial lines which are just stronger limited lootable items but I don't think it's necessary

That's not a huge suggestion but knowing Hinterland Studio Inc I know it will take 9 months

Thank you to have read this post and have a good day and don't hesitate to give your feedback

[AZHockeyNut]

So what do you see as the bonus or use of all the items meaning you said fly gets you small fish, but what a higher probability of catching? You burn resources and calories to make it so it can't be worthless as the empty hook.

Assuming each level of fishing also adds to the ability to better use each lure yes? Chart up what you envision and add it as a suggestion on the public bug database. If you put it there HL does see it and it stands a better chance of them thinking about it versus here. I think you are onto a decent idea

[TheHunter280]

Fair point, I may have made it under-powered but fly aren't that worthless since they can catch fish by themself so it's better than nothing

In the survival skill fishing on the wiki they say "Fishing time reduced by 10%." at level 3 so yeah... it get better with time I guess... Publishing it on the bug database ? I mean isn't it inappropriate but a least that's their priorities

Took note "Add images and chart"

[CitrinePeridot]

I think, in reading over some of the posts in forums, that some prefer not to have "one more thing" added or to do, but I differ in that respect. Anything, in my opinion, that would lend one more element of reality to this game would be welcomed (not that I am displeased as it is right now). So, I do like your idea and the amount of thought you've put into it. I agree about the "magic hook" though I will share with you that I once did, in fact, catch a fish that (upon cleaning) did not have any of my bait inside. Apparently, in the frenzy over my hook/line, it decided to take a bite of whatever shined. LOL Only happened once, but I'll never forget it. I was like, "Wha...?" Anyway, I like your idea. Thank you. 

[AZHockeyNut]

I have been asked by the team on occasion to note non bugs (enhancement requests) in the bug database. They do see them there and handle them differently but this way they don't get buried in the forum

[Fuarian]

I agree here but there should be more. (just wanna point out that the fishing line roll is an item currently not in use that may be used here)

First off, fish should run out. The fish population should decrease the more you fish. Overfishing will result in an extremely low rate of increase in fish again over time. Being wise about how much you fish can benefit you. This shouldn't matter the difficulty. 

 

[JAFO]

Spoons yes..

Flies no..

Fly fishing is done entirely above the water. Not in the water, through a hole in the ice.

 

On 9/5/2017 at 9:17 AM, Fuarian said:

First off, fish should run out. The fish population should decrease the more you fish. Overfishing will result in an extremely low rate of increase in fish again over time.

The game already works this way, more or less. It may vary by difficulty level, though.

[Hesha]

I don't think fishing is OP. You use finite resources (metal) in order to collect an abundantly available resource (meat) and a somewhat limited, but ultimately ineffectual resource (oil).

Metal can be quite useful for some other applications, so I do miss every lost hook.

Meat is abundantly available, because rabbits are now easier to catch and the" chase deer into wolf, light a fire" method is pretty much fool proof.

Oil is not scarce enough and only really necessary in caves / mines which are limited and don't need to be traversed very frequently.

Plus fish are SO heavy.

Fishing is fine. It is a nice option to have, but I don't think it is damaging to the game balance.

[Fuarian]

3 hours ago, JAFO said:

Spoons yes..

Flies no..

Fly fishing is done entirely above the water. Not in the water, through a hole in the ice.

 

The game already works this way, more or less. It may vary by difficulty level, though.

This happens on Interloper quickly but it's very linear. 

[Kaiservadin]

On 9/4/2017 at 7:27 AM, TheHunter280 said:

As we all know fishing is quite OP for what it is visually, a simple hook with no bait who can catch fish with the unknown power of canadian magic.

It's normal to spend calories with random result with the chance to loose your tool but what kind fish will bite an empty hook, we must pay a higher price for those fishes

Mechanic balance

The bait method should be the most rewarding due to extra work put in, the spoon become the intermediate between cheap and efficiency and artificial fly to be the poor man alternative, to summarize :

Bait>Spoon>Fly

 

Items

-Bait

It could be scraped from food (Cat tail and liquids non-included), you select by the calories you want to invest in 25 by 25 (Bait can be considerate as a food and tool item) you can eat it with a high chance to get food poisoning (If you are really desperate)

Ruined just mean you can't eat it

   -Use 0.01 Kg per use for fishing

   -Ratio Calorie/Weight : 2500 Calories / Kg

-Spoon

It is craftable at the workbench for 1 crap metal to create 2 spoons

   -Weght : 0.03 Kg

   -Craft time : 20 minutes

-Spoon Line

Craftable with a line and a spoon at any place, it work like the old tackle but you can't sew with it (At least they can be stackable) and it's chance to catch lower

   -Craft time : 10 minutes

   -Weight : 0.04 Kg

-(Optionally and alternatively) Artificial Fly

Crafted with a feather, a line and a fishing tackle anywhere, you can do the same as a spoon but with less chance to catch a fish with it, you can't sew with it and you can only catch the small fish

   -Craft time : 15 minutes

   -Weight : 0.03 Kg

Minor ideas and thought

I hope this suggestion to be balanced, reasonable and make the game harder in the long run

It could add a lure box which work like ammo and artificial lines which are just stronger limited lootable items but I don't think it's necessary

That's not a huge suggestion but knowing Hinterland Studio Inc I know it will take 9 months

Thank you to have read this post and have a good day and don't hesitate to give your feedback

I am fine with how fishing is, the only thing they could change is to make it more real like. ( Needing a fishing rod , line, hook and bait ) etc.

[Hesha]

3 hours ago, Kaiservadin said:

I am fine with how fishing is, the only thing they could change is to make it more real like. ( Needing a fishing rod , line, hook and bait ) etc.

You don't need a fishing rod in ice fishing, as the deep water is right beneath your feet. Als you need is gloves or a stick / spool to wind the line up on. We have line and hook already and bait... isn't really an issue, is it? You could just use bits of the last fish you caught.

[TheHunter280]

On 08/09/2017 at 2:50 PM, JAFO said:

Spoons yes..

Flies no..

Fly fishing is done entirely above the water. Not in the water, through a hole in the ice.

Yes you're right

 

On 08/09/2017 at 3:38 PM, Hesha said:

I don't think fishing is OP. You use finite resources (metal) in order to collect an abundantly available resource (meat) and a somewhat limited, but ultimately ineffectual resource (oil).

Metal can be quite useful for some other applications, so I do miss every lost hook.

Fishing is fine. It is a nice option to have, but I don't think it is damaging to the game balance.

Metal is quite abundant and it is also renewable since beach combing exist (See wiki for more information), and admit it you never repair an object which use scrap metal because it's a waste of time and resource because you practically never use those tools and they are really tough (Can Opener, Storm Lantern, Simple Tools, Quality Tools and Lamp Torch) except Hacksaw because it's a precious baby

Fishing was never balance breaking mechanic but a little bit powerful but always appreciate feedbacks

 

[Hesha]

4 hours ago, TheHunter280 said:

Yes you're right

 

Metal is quite abundant and it is also renewable since beach combing exist (See wiki for more information), and admit it you never repair an object which use scrap metal because it's a waste of time and resource because you practically never use those tools and they are really tough (Can Opener, Storm Lantern, Simple Tools, Quality Tools and Lamp Torch) except Hacksaw because it's a precious baby

Fishing was never balance breaking mechanic but a little bit powerful but always appreciate feedbacks

 

Didn't know about beach combing, but then again tend not to run around on weak ice all that much

And I would, but I cannot admit to that. I have repaired lanterns (to make sure the bear doesn't eat them), I have repaired a can opener with a harvested can opener and I have definitely repaired my hacksaws. Plus I have crafted improvised tools and made arrow heads, all of which uses metal.

But my point wasn't about metal being scarce - depending on where you are on the map, it arguable isn't. My point was that it is finite. And meat isn't.

I do understand your criticism of fishing, but I have yet to see a convincing alternative.

Consider this: What if the "hook" in the game actually represents all manner of fancy fishing tackly, it has just been stripped down to look more basic? That would explain why you don't need bait. And also remember that you need a whole unit of scrap metal to make a few hooks. More than fair to assume that you use some shiny bits of metal to make a proper tackle, don't you think?

Most suggestions to nerf fishing would only make things more tedious, if you ask me.

[Mroz4k]

I may not be much of a fisherman, but even I do know for a fact it is possible to catch fish on hook only. The hook itself has a shape of a worm, and its not like your "bait" would make more sense if it was simply a food item - the point of a worm on a hook is not because it has a smell or taste to it for a fish, but because it moves, wriggles in the water, on the hook. Movement is what attracts the fish, as well as shiny, interesting items. So, if you jerk the fishing hook in the water, you will get fish eventually, with or without a bait. The only thing that would reasonably work for a bait in TLD is, I think, meat - because due to its consistency, a strip of meat would move by currents the similar way a worm would wiggle.

Flies work above water, the point is to attract the fish to the surface of water and have it jump out at it, at least I think. Again, not a fisherman, only ever been catching trouts by hands.

https://outdoors.stackexchange.com/questions/363/how-do-i-catch-fish-with-fish-hooks-but-no-bait
For those who still dont believe...

Scrap metal might be abundant, but still, I would rather use it to make more hooks then to waste more of it on spoons. So I dont see this as a neccesity.

I personally dont see much of a problem with the fishing as is... if anything I would make the fish smaller, rarer and a bit less caloric, but not neccesarily harder to catch since its the game´s only source of renewable lantern fuel.

I like fishing the way it is right now, so I am not that fond of this idea, but if people want to waste more scrap metal on fishing, then let them. I am all for making meat baits, but honestly, I feel like the fishing in game needs to have fishing traps as well as the actual fishing. If anything, I would like to see some sort of torch atraction fishing method involved in the game, but that is just me.

[TheHunter280]

8 minutes ago, Hesha said:

Consider this: What if the "hook" in the game actually represents all manner of fancy fishing tackly, it has just been stripped down to look more basic? That would explain why you don't need bait. And also remember that you need a whole unit of scrap metal to make a few hooks. More than fair to assume that you use some shiny bits of metal to make a proper tackle, don't you think?

Most suggestions to nerf fishing would only make things more tedious, if you ask me.

@Hesha (X) Doubt. You can make steel shine by grinding, mate plus have you ever encountered an overly agressive/curious fish who bite shiny hook ? Lure doesn't count

Fishing is way too easy for late game, 2 Hours of fishing and food for the entire day but early fishing is the worst activity.

 

[Mroz4k]

On the contrary, a feather tied to a fishing hook could actually immitate an insect below the water as well, as it moves. 

[Hesha]

2 minutes ago, TheHunter280 said:

@Hesha (X) Doubt. You can make steel shine by grinding, mate plus have you ever encountered an overly agressive/curious fish who bite shiny hook ? Lure doesn't count

Fishing is way too easy for late game, 2 Hours of fishing and food for the entire day but early fishing is the worst activity.

 

What are you trying to tell me? It was YOU who suggested the need to produce additional tackles. I merely suggested that this might already be included.

And yes, I have done quite a bit of sea fishing and I have never used organic bait in that. Reflectors and shiny metal do the job just fine.

I do agree, that fishing get's really good late game, but unless you find tons of Frozen Anglers you'll have to work your way up through the skill levels regardless.

[TheHunter280]

@Hesha Hey ! I've never said that my suggestion was "useless" I only doubt of what you said and that the devs told that to themself

As a fresh water fisherman in Europe all my respect, most fish in my region won't bite to jerking empty hook (Clear water doesn't help to fool fish on sight fishing)

[Hesha]

Of course. In freshwater fishing I have always used organic bait as well. But we have both in the game, so the question would be if it is feasible in the seawater locations.

Also, I think there is a difference between using an empty hook and a tackle that mimics the appearance of a small fish.

[Mroz4k]

Just now, Hesha said:

Of course. In freshwater fishing I have always used organic bait as well. But we have both in the game, so the question would be if it is feasible in the seawater locations.

Also, I think there is a difference between using an empty hook and a tackle that mimics the appearance of a small fish.

Yes but we dont have tackles in game. Unless you think the hook in game includes a tackle which I doubt. Crafting tackles is something I can get behind. Could easily just be a couple of wooden bits on a line, so it jerks around in water. 

Empty hooks do indeed work on fresh fish as well, I saw Ray Mears somewhere catch a sweetwater fish on an improvised hook with no bait somewhere long time ago. Its just not as efficient, which is fine by me, afterall the point of this was to add challenge to fishing, right? Seems to me you suggested a bunch of way to increase the odds of catching a fish when your initial argument was that fishing is too easy.

9 minutes ago, TheHunter280 said:

As a fresh water fisherman in Europe all my respect, most fish in my region won't bite to jerking empty hook (Clear water doesn't help to fool fish on sight fishing)

Or maybe you just lack the proper method to get it to work. But what do I know... I only fish with my bare hands. I do have hooks and fishing line in my kit but I never had to use them yet. Not much of a chance to get into a survival situation in the first place, in central Europe. 

[Ruruwawa]

I find the current implementation real enough.  I ice fished in Wisconsin every winter for several years and never used a spoon or a rod -- just a fly and often a tip up.  The fish don't move a lot, because cold blooded I guess, so it can be a long time before you get a bite.  Also did a few scuba dives under the ice and whatever small fry a spoon is trying to imitate, I never saw anything moving like that under the ice.   On the other hand you'd see bigger fish like pike just hanging in the water, not moving, even when you swam right up to them.  Cold, dark and still down there.

It's probably different for somewhere coastal, but I've never seen that kind of ice fishing. 

[godhelpme89]

I just assumed we were applying bait to the hook even though it's not shown. Similar to us having an endless supply of empty water bottles, I figured it was the same with bait.

I don't mind the way fishing is now but wouldn't mind having more options either. Of course the easier option would be to change the picture of the hook to something like you showed above.

And as for catching a fish on a bare hook.... not likely. Yes there's a "chance", just like there's a "chance" of a meteorite hitting me in the head.

[nicko]

I doubt a shiny lure would work to well in cold climates? lures are used more in warmer sunny waters where fish are very active. then again fly lures do catch trout and such in cold rivers

If anything just add a bit of meat or other protein baits on your hook, which yeah I presumed it did auto magically in game.

I guess the devs might make fishing bit more in depth after they fix other issues first.

Then again I guess no one wants to micro manage things unless it adds fun or purpose to the game?

[TROY]

3 hours ago, godhelpme89 said:

I just assumed we were applying bait to the hook even though it's not shown. Similar to us having an endless supply of empty water bottles, I figured it was the same with bait.

I don't mind the way fishing is now but wouldn't mind having more options either. Of course the easier option would be to change the picture of the hook to something like you showed above.

And as for catching a fish on a bare hook.... not likely. Yes there's a "chance", just like there's a "chance" of a meteorite hitting me in the head.

Same here. I've always assumed that bait on the hook from food scraps or what have you was implied. 

The reason that fish in the game has such low caloric value is to balance the relative ease with which they are caught. It makes horrible food for being on the go. I don't think it needs adjusting at all. The low calories combined with amount of time invested and relative scarcity of places to do it balance it out just fine. 

Edit:  That being said, I would surely support a bait mechanic of some sort being added for interest only. There should be a couple types, one from fresh meat, with a far lesser chance of catching a fish, then, once you have a fish, preparing IT to use as bait, and thus increasing your chances. Neither is terribly realistic, as the fish we are catching arent actually swimming around down there, on the hunt. But, still, I'd support it. 

[Mroz4k]

1 hour ago, godhelpme89 said:

And as for catching a fish on a bare hook.... not likely. Yes there's a "chance", just like there's a "chance" of a meteorite hitting me in the head.

That is rather ignorant viewpoint. Most survival kits offer only empty hook, no tackles or spoons - and you can still catch a fish on it, even without bait, if you try hard enough. I have a friend who tried it once (he left his equipment at home and was too lazy) and caught a simply on hook, after which he decided to get some ringworms on-site to increase his chances. But I guess we could argue that the baits are made out of food scraps, the same way bottles just appear out of thin air (human garbage is ever-present so I never really questioned that part too much, either).  Chances to catch fish on an empty hook are not that impossible.