Fighting wolves

[JAFO]

6 hours ago, WanderingPalm said:

Jafo, I meant no offense in my comments

None taken.. seriously. I was hoping the wink would help convey that..

[JAFO]

3 hours ago, Thrasador said:

I'm sure @JAFOdidn't really take much or any offence, tbh. He's a much better person than most, and I have seldom if ever seen him get upset or flustered by ANYONE....at least not in these forums. I don't know how often he gets upset in real life.

Heh.. I dunno about the "better person" bit, but I learned a long time ago that getting upset at people is always counter-productive. In real life, I'm VERY hard to offend or piss off.

(Well, unless someone is an idiot driver and in front of me, anyway.. I spent a decade as a professional driver, and bad driving is the one thing that really bugs me! That shit gets innocent people killed.)

[Thrasador]

1 hour ago, JAFO said:

Heh.. I dunno about the "better person" bit, but I learned a long time ago that getting upset at people is always counter-productive. In real life, I'm VERY hard to offend or piss off.

(Well, unless someone is an idiot driver and in front of me, anyway.. I spent a decade as a professional driver, and bad driving is the one thing that really bugs me! That shit gets innocent people killed.)

I would say bad drivers are upsetting universally, lol....

[JAFO]

8 minutes ago, Thrasador said:

I would say bad drivers are upsetting universally, lol....

Well, let's just say they are pretty much the only thing that makes me lose my cool. I am SO glad that nobody can hear me when I'm alone in a car. I'd never road-rage, but if you heard me, you'd think I was on the verge of getting out and breaking bones.. 

[Thrasador]

27 minutes ago, JAFO said:

Well, let's just say they are pretty much the only thing that makes me lose my cool. I am SO glad that nobody can hear me when I'm alone in a car. I'd never road-rage, but if you heard me, you'd think I was on the verge of getting out and breaking bones.. 

Lol, I've been there....

(I mean bad drivers have historically driven me insane. Not that I have been in a car with Jafo during road rage....)

[JAFO]

And we now return you to your regular program.. fighting wolves.

(sorry for the OT break, folks!)

[Thrasador]

Just now, JAFO said:

And we now return you to your regular program.. fighting wolves.

(sorry for the OT break, folks!)

Lol....

[Mroz4k]

On 4. 9. 2017 at 9:24 AM, Thrasador said:

Lacerations also don't cause a bleeding wound to the degree that you need to bandage and use antiseptic either....

Completedly forgot about those. Thanks!

On 4. 9. 2017 at 10:19 AM, Samsonguy920 said:

Even if you remember to check the damage report, it still pays to do your own checkover.

Cant argue with that, I probably should have made it clear that it is better to do a check up in the end anyways" - in fact I am for doing regular check ups to see your clothing status - be it conditions, wetness/freezing, etc. It helps a lot to avoid unfavorable situations like your rare piece of clothing getting ruined or you getting a frostbite while harvesting a log because you were wearing almost frozen mittens.

8 hours ago, Thrasador said:

I would most likely kill and eat anyone rude who upsets me.

I know I am rude, quite often. Feel free to eat me when I am, I wont be pressing any charges if you do.

[Ruruwawa]

On 9/3/2017 at 3:57 PM, Timber Wolf said:

I've only just found time recently to play, so I haven't run any tests since the release.  I'm currently focused on a run with the Old Bear in the Broken Railroad, but when I get a chance I'll do another round of tests for fatigue. 

Not to make more work for you, but I'd also be interested in the affects of starving, and suffering from an affliction (say, a sprained ankle).  I'd help but this kind of testing is a horrible fit for me... spreadsheets induce a coma pretty much instantly.  

On 9/4/2017 at 0:49 AM, Mroz4k said:

I wonder if full/empty stomach makes a difference as well. I would almost guess it does - I only fight them while well fed so I am not sure if being hungry makes difference.

Dunno about a full stomach, but I suspect an empty stomach might matter based on a dev comment on Timber Wolf's weapon testing thread during the playtesting of Faithful Cartographer.  That was on the test branch forums, so we can't read it anymore but it said something like "there are more factors involved than just weapon type."  It seems pretty clear that exhaustion is one factor (it seems to increase wolf detection range too), what are the others?  Hunger, injury, overburdened... smelliness?

[Timber Wolf]

28 minutes ago, Ruruwawa said:

Not to make more work for you, but I'd also be interested in the affects of starving, and suffering from an affliction (say, a sprained ankle).

 

28 minutes ago, Ruruwawa said:

It seems pretty clear that exhaustion is one factor (it seems to increase wolf detection range too), what are the others?  Hunger, injury, overburdened... smelliness?

I will include these types of variables in my next set of tests.  I really don't think being hungry or thirsty will make a difference, but I can't say for sure without seeing some numbers.  On the other hand, I could definitely see injuries or being over burdened making a difference.

[WanderingPalm]

Does anyone else feel like this thread should be moved to How To Play and be pinned? I think the information in here and linked to in here would be really helpful to everyone. Or... oh no. I just had a thought. What if fighting wolves in Wintermute is different from fighting them in Survival? They definitely seem easier to fight off than in Voyageur, so what else might be different? Timber Wolf... I think I just found more tests for you to do.

And Jafo, no, you didn't seem angry, but it felt like the right thing to do for me to clarify that I wasn't trying to pass the blame to you.  And yeah, bad drivers piss me off, too. I hate the people that pass cars and bikers on blind hills and curves... and people that don't signal. And those people that tailgate you to make you go faster and then speed past you on the highway to cut dangerously in front of you when you were only going as slow as you were because the car in front of you was going that speed, so it's not like they actually accomplished anything. But I digress...

[Thrasador]

7 hours ago, Timber Wolf said:

 

I will include these types of variables in my next set of tests.  I really don't think being hungry or thirsty will make a difference, but I can't say for sure without seeing some numbers.  On the other hand, I could definitely see injuries or being over burdened making a difference.

I am very curious what variables affect wolf struggles, and I want to thank @Timber Wolffor all the research and testing he has already accomplished. If you plan on checking all these other variables like hungry, thirsty, overburdened, and sprains then you are pretty amazing.....thanks @Timber Wolf!

I'm not going to venture a guess as to which variables will affect wolf struggles....because you could make an argument for pretty much any or all of them. Any and all empty need bars COULD make you less effective in a fight....especially hungry, injured, and overburdened....

If some or none of them do, it would probably be due to a lack of programing time, or the programming equation was overly complicated....

[Thrasador]

2 minutes ago, WanderingPalm said:

Does anyone else feel like this thread should be moved to How To Play and be pinned? I think the information in here and linked to in here would be really helpful to everyone. Or... oh no. I just had a thought. What if fighting wolves in Wintermute is different from fighting them in Survival? They definitely seem easier to fight off than in Voyageur, so what else might be different? Timber Wolf... I think I just found more tests for you to do.

Lol, I have been asking @Timber Wolf to check story mode for a while now.....he seems opposed to the idea, but we discussed it...

[WanderingPalm]

Just now, Thrasador said:

Lol, I have been asking @Timber Wolf to check story mode for a while now.....he seems opposed to the idea, but we discussed it...

Hm, I suppose if Wintermute's wolf struggles are easier, then that doesn't really help anyone learn how to most effectively engage them. This would probably just be more to satisfy curiosity than anything useful.

[Thrasador]

25 minutes ago, WanderingPalm said:

Hm, I suppose if Wintermute's wolf struggles are easier, then that doesn't really help anyone learn how to most effectively engage them. This would probably just be more to satisfy curiosity than anything useful.

I don't know if they ARE easier.....but they SEEM easier, and their difficulty was turned down in one or more patches due to new players dying too much when Wintermute was released....

So they PROBABLY are easier than wolves in the Sandbox....

[Timber Wolf]

33 minutes ago, Thrasador said:

I am very curious what variables affect wolf struggles, and I want to thank @Timber Wolffor all the research and testing he has already accomplished. If you plan on checking all these other variables like hungry, thirsty, overburdened, and sprains then you are pretty amazing.....thanks @Timber Wolf!

You're very welcome!
 

32 minutes ago, Thrasador said:

I have been asking @Timber Wolf to check story mode for a while now.....he seems opposed to the idea, but we discussed it...

Since my play time is limited and the time it takes to perform these tests increased after the FC update and then again with the Wintermute release, I can really only do so many of these tests.  Therefore, I will continue to only test the things I am personally  interested in finding out about.  And since I've never had any interest in Story Mode and have never played Pilgrim or Voyager, I won't be doing any tests for those.

If you would like to know the process I use for testing, I'd be happy to share it and then you can test to your heart's content.

[cekivi]

If @JACKROX_12234 is not opposed to the idea @WanderingPalm I can certainly move the post to the "how to play" section

[Thrasador]

@cekivi is this flare patch comming?

This has been like waiting for the second coming of Christ....

Seriously we are heading on like 3 weeks now....

[cekivi]

@Thrasador Sorry but I've got no further information for you. I've been out of the loop myself preparing to defend and finishing my final thesis edits. 

The studio is currently on break after the launch of Episode 1 and 2. I would expect more news once everyone gets back.  

[WanderingPalm]

On 9/5/2017 at 2:52 PM, Timber Wolf said:

If you would like to know the process I use for testing, I'd be happy to share it and then you can test to your heart's content.

Yes please! Though I wonder if I'll still be able to do them from the PS4 version. I mean, obviously I can't do tests that involve click frequency, since I can't regulate that, but I can try other ones. And given the lack of dev response I've gotten on my scent mechanics posts, I'll need to start documenting info from those tests, anyway. Test consistency is always a good idea. Thanks, Timber Wolf!

[Timber Wolf]

1 hour ago, WanderingPalm said:

Yes please! Though I wonder if I'll still be able to do them from the PS4 version. I mean, obviously I can't do tests that involve click frequency, since I can't regulate that, but I can try other ones. And given the lack of dev response I've gotten on my scent mechanics posts, I'll need to start documenting info from those tests, anyway.

I don't think you'll be able to test like I do on a PS4 for reasons that will become clear after you read my methodology, but that shouldn't prevent you from doing some sorts of testing.  By the way, I am currently trying to work out a method for testing the scent mechanics, but it's not going to be very easy to do.
 

Anyway, for the record, here is exactly what I did to perform the struggle tests:

I started a new game in TWM.  I first went to both the huts, then to the cargo containers above the rope nearest to the lake to get more clothes.  Then back to the MH to rest up.  The next day I went up to the summit, where I took the good clothes and all of the weapons, along with some other odds and ends.  Then back down to the MH.

At this point I remembered there is no prybar to find on TWM, so I had to go to Skeeters Ridge in PV to get one.  I was lucky and found one that was 90%.  This was great, because I had found a hammer at the summit at 89%.  So, I used the prybar on one of the lockers in the abandoned cache, which brought it down to 89%.  Upon my return to the MH, I used a whetstone to bring a knife and hatchet up to 89%.

Then I brought most of my stuff out to the fishing hut.  This is where I run my tests from.  It is a perfect location with two wolves usually hanging out on the other side of the lake.  I placed the weapons on top of a container in the fishing hut, so they would be easy to grab.  Then I laid down a bedroll and slept until I was fully rested. 

Next I walked out to the wolves to get one's attention and walked him back to the fishing hut.  Then I quickly took off all of my clothes and passed one hour of time, in order to the save the game in the exact state I needed for the tests.

So, now I have everything ready to go.  At this point, I leave the game and make a copy of the save file and put it in a new folder.  This becomes my testing save file.  Then it's time to start testing.  So, I go back into the game and grab one of the weapons, and walk out a few feet to start the struggle. Right after my character stands up after the struggle is over, I go to the screen that shows my condition and injuries and take a screenshot.

Then I quit the game, copy my testing save back into the game folder, start the game back up and do it again.  And then again and again and again - until I have run all the tests I want to run.  After I have finished testing one weapon, I put all of those screenshots into a folder named for the weapon, so I can keep them organized.

Then I open up a spreadsheet on half of my screen and the screenshots for one of the weapons on the other half.  I go through the screenshots while recording the relevant data into the spreadsheet.  Then I usually create some graphs from the data.

About getting consistent mouse-clicks for every struggle - I play the game with a gamepad, not a mouse and keyboard.  I use a program called Xpadder to map the keys to the controller.  This program also allows me to configure a button to act like a repeated key press at whatever interval I like.  So, I went online and found a site that you can test clicks per second.  I tested myself a few times and when I'm at my best and not missing, it was about 8.3 per second, so that's the number I went with.

The main idea here is to eliminate as many variables as possible.  If you were to run these tests without the aid of a macro or the like to regulate the mouse clicks, you would be introducing an uncontrolled variable which would render the results unusable.

Let me know if you have any other questions about this.

[WanderingPalm]

5 hours ago, Timber Wolf said:

[information]

Hm, interesting. I knew I wouldn't be able to replicate the click frequency needed for testing any stats on the struggles, but otherwise, this could be do-able, if slightly clunkier. I can simulate the backup save control state by saving that to online storage or a thumb drive, then loading that save whenever I need to restart. And, at least on PS4, I can take screenshots, though they're more disruptive than on pc.

Man, I wish this game still ran on my laptop... all the content updates have made the game too much for my little machine.

[Timber Wolf]

11 minutes ago, WanderingPalm said:

but otherwise, this could be do-able, if slightly clunkier. I can simulate the backup save control state by saving that to online storage or a thumb drive, then loading that save whenever I need to restart

Definitely.  The part that always sucks about a process like this is the reloading.  Prior to the game-save overhaul, I didn't have to restart the game to start a test over again.  And then after the Winternute release, I have to start the game over again and then wait through the forced intro.  Don't get me wrong, it's a beautiful intro.  Just wish I could press a key and get on with it.

[Samsonguy920]

On 9/5/2017 at 0:47 PM, Thrasador said:

I don't know if they ARE easier.....but they SEEM easier, and their difficulty was turned down in one or more patches due to new players dying too much when Wintermute was released....

So they PROBABLY are easier than wolves in the Sandbox....

I am fully expecting them to get more difficult the further into the story we go.  Don't let your guard down!

[JAFO]

10 minutes ago, Samsonguy920 said:

I am fully expecting them to get more difficult the further into the story we go.

Likewise.