Mending 5: terrible ROI

[Ruruwawa]

Today, for the first time, I completed Mending 5.  I did it for the Skilled Survivor achievement... and I'll never do it again.  In fact, I'd tell other survivors not to waste the extraordinary time and resources required unless going for the achievement.  Further I'd tell them to do it on a throwaway sandbox, to avoid the negative impact of wasting so many precious survival resources.

I did this on Pilgrim.  First, I read the 4 sewing books I found.  Then I repaired 80%+ of the clothing items in the world (I skipped most leather items), some of them multiple times.  This includes all the clothing in cargo crates in TWM.  For cloth, I torn up every curtain and hanging piece of cloth in ML, BR and PV.  I tore up a lot of the clothing in TWM for cloth as well.

What's left over?  3 sewing kits, of the 15 or so I found in the entire world.  (I did craft boots and gloves with a sewing kit, but otherwise the kits were used for repairs.)   There's still cloth in the world, but most of it is tied up in furniture, heaps of spare clothing or in pillows/bedrolls in DP.

And what did I get for all my resources and effort?

 

Feedback

My issues with this skill are twofold:  first, it consumes a large % of the total sewing resources in the world to unlock.  Second, it increases incredibly slowly when playing normally.  Unless your playstyle is to wrestle wolves every day, you can easily limit your clothing repairs to one item a week -- even on Interloper.  In fact, that's the intuitive way to survive in TLD: conserve resources.  This skill likely takes 1000+ days to unlock through normal play, assuming you don't lose the sandbox to mischance or boredom before that.  IMO, Hinterland should revisit why the skill is designed to progress so slowly.  

My own preference would be to make this a Sewing skill instead, and have both crafting and mending contribute to it.  Then tune all 5 ranks to level naturally through the crafting and mending that we do to our own clothes and bedrolls over the course of shorter time frame -- say, 200 days.  The rank 5 bonuses are fine IMO, but nowhere near the game changers that other rank 5 skills are.  This should be one of the easier skills to unlock.

[WanderingPalm]

Or perhaps level 5 could allow you to use fishing lines as effectively as sewing kits, while also reducing the condition lost? Or negate lost condition on sewing kits (although, admittedly, that makes less sense since you're constantly using thread, though it could be explained as you now making thread from grasses and bark...or your hair or a wolf's). Or allow sewing kits to be "repaired" with cured gut (since all you're using is the thread--the needle would still be fine). Or reduce the materials needed to repair items by half.

The point is, I agree with Ruruwawa. There is a LOT that could be done with a skill that takes so long to achieve for very little payoff. It doesn't need to be anything game-breaking, but it DOES need to be at least relatively worthwhile, and currently, it is not.

Personally, I'd like to see this skill combined with the non-skills (although kind of still skills) sharpening, cleaning, and repairing, since they all basically do the same thing (raise condition of an item at the cost of another item). It would add those non-skills to an official skill with a ranking system (rather than simply leveling up every time you do it), and it would be nice to be able to use those resources (I'm looking at you, rifle cleaning kit and whetstone) more efficiently given how scarce they are. At least if Mending 5 reduced all those tools' usage by 35%, it might be more worthwhile--though still not by much, as it wouldn't change the fact that it's affecting painfully finite resources which you've probably already burned through by day 200.

And speaking of which, what the heck are the cleaning kit and whetstone made of that they degrade that fast?! I have a whetstone I've used on my knives for over a decade and still see no wear on it! ...but that's a rant for another time and place.

As an aside, Ruruwawa, what does "ROI" mean? The internet has been taken over by acronyms and I can't keep up.

[Arzanot]

I just got my Rank 5 Mending today, on like the 215th day of the sandbox. It's a bitch for sure, but cloth and sewing kits are still stocked in abundance. Tore down the most of Pleasant Valley and stocked it in the farmstead. Crafted about 50 lines and hooks for fishing and repairing.

Had about 200 cloth left once I hit rank 5, with 8 100% sewing kits and an abundance of fishing supplies. Had 3 Sewing Primer books, that I probably didn't optimize skillpoints on either.

It seems OK balanced, since the bump from 4-5 is a luxury and not a necessity like all the other skills.

[Stormwolf1O1]

2 hours ago, Ruruwawa said:

My own preference would be to make this a Sewing skill instead, and have both crafting and mending contribute to it.  Then tune all 5 ranks to level naturally through the crafting and mending that we do to our own clothes and bedrolls over the course of shorter time frame -- say, 200 days.  The rank 5 bonuses are fine IMO, but nowhere near the game changers that other rank 5 skills are.  This should be one of the easier skills to unlock.

I completely agree. 250+ days into my current longest run, Mending was the last skill I had yet to master. I spent hours jumping off of small cliffs, tearing my clothing (hey, at least it was safer than making a bear angry over and over again). Many fishing hooks and sewing kits died that day to support the cause.

But anyway, it would be great if this skill were adjusted to include both crafting clothing and repairing/mending clothing. Surely some people would abuse this by crafting deerskin boots 1000 times, but hey, if it gets you to Level 5...

[TROY]

I have also often wished the several repair skills would be blended into one, but I just can't see an actual rationale behind doing so. Nothing about mending clothes has anything to do with sharpening a knife or hatchet. Being able to repair a lantern or hammer with your eyes closed doesnt convey any information whatsoever that is useful in cleaning a gun, or either of the other two. 

I do think that crafting clothing should count towards mending/sewing and that skill definately needs some tuning. And, it's rank 5 perk should be the ability to mend "ruined" items, with say, a 60% chance to succeed. 

As for the others, cleaning a rifle needs to go back to being attached to the firearms skill. Do away with cleaning altogether, and base the cleaning on firearm skill, and give the skill a tiny boost for cleaning. like, 1/10th of what a successful shot does.

Then, lump together repair and sharpening with all the other crafting items, and call it "Handyman" or "Mechanical"  or "Trades" or "Survival" or whatever ya want, and give it some little perks like reduced wear on tools, reduced harvesting time for wood and metal, increased durability for crafted items, reduced crafting times, and finally, at level 5, again, a modest chance to salvage a ruined item with double the normal raw materials for the salvage. 

I know Hinterland folks will read this and think it will unbalance the game, if nothing is ever lost forever, but lets face it, by the time a player has gotten those skills to that point, there arent many tools and clothes left at our disposal, and it's not like we couldnt live indefinately with crafted clothing and tools/weapons on the lower difficulties, and the higher difficulties are already punishing enough. 

I couldnt agree more with the statements made about whetstones and cleaning kits lasting far longer than they do.  However, the same could be said for everything in the game.  It's preposterous to think that chunking a limb into 3 pieces of firewood 50 times would ruin a brand new hatchet. Dull it badly, sure, but ruin?  Pretty darn unlikely.  Personally, I'd like to see a system implemented (and I have no idea what this would entail, programming-wise, so maybe im talking out my rumpous) that reduces the amount of tools and such available to find. Then, once a player does find say, a hunting knife, no more will spawn. I don't want to see only one in the entire world, but once a player finds his or her first one,  it's removed from the loot table, same with rifles, and toolboxes, etc.  Replace them with bullets, or scrap metal, or matches, or whatever, depending on what is being replaced.  Whetsones and cleaning kits and sewing kits should be the same way. Once you find one, you could use it forever, but you better not lose it, because you'll never find another.  This would encourage players to take good care of the things they have, and to value them greatly,  force us to maintain them, and be mindful of whether we want to risk a hatchet thats at 5% on chopping a limb, or get by a couple more days with sticks and hopefull find a whetstone soon.  

The game is rather late in development for such grandiose wishful thinking, I know, and much of this stuff has been presented long ago, to no avail. Either its to difficult to program, or they are dead set on having things wear out and break very quickly as a means of challenge and difficulty. It's hideously unrealistic, but unquestionably challenging. 

 

Edit:  I know this is already long, but I'd like to add some thoughts on how to handle things like hatchets and knives wearing out. 1st, they should NEVER wear out. Only get dull.  They should lose 1% sharpness per use, or per hour of use. The game doesnt allow us to use them for things they arent intended for, so its silly to think we could ruin them by misusing or abusing them.  For every 10% sharpness they lose, the time it takes to do the job should go up. And if they drop below 75%, a small chance to injure ourselves, requiring a bandage and antiseptic should come into play, increased at 50% and 25% and 0%.  Should we be able to keep using a hatchet that is dulled to 0% to chop wood? If we can use a hammer to break a crate, why cant we use a dull hatchet?  Only someone who has no other option would choose to do this, but they should always have that option. I promise you, if you are freezing to death and need a fire, you can break limbs with almost anything.  The duller they get, the longer they take to sharpen. It would encourage a player to spend some time trying to find themselves a sharpening stone. Or a toolbox.  A prybar? should.never.wear.out. period. I own a prybar that has been in my family for 4 generations. And I promise you, my grandfathers used it for REAL work. It could still pry open the trunk on a 2016 Ford Taurus today just as easily and with no more chance of breaking as it could a Ford model t, 90 years ago.  But again, ONE in the game. Once you find one, no more spawn.  Hacksaws? Should NOT be repairable. Once that blade is dull, its dull forever. Use it dull. Add some hacksaw blades to the game. I could go on and on, and would love to if I thought it might be heeded and lead to changes, but this is long enough, and I'm gonna play the game regardless.   <3

[WanderingPalm]

4 minutes ago, TROY said:

I have also often wished the several repair skills would be blended into one, but I just can't see an actual rationale behind doing so. Nothing about mending clothes has anything to do with sharpening a knife or hatchet. Being able to repair a lantern or hammer with your eyes closed doesnt convey any information whatsoever that is useful in cleaning a gun, or either of the other two. 

I do think that crafting clothing should count towards mending/sewing and that skill definately needs some tuning. And, it's rank 5 perk should be the ability to mend "ruined" items, with say, a 60% chance to succeed. 

As for the others, cleaning a rifle needs to go back to being attached to the firearms skill. Do away with cleaning altogether, and base the cleaning on firearm skill, and give the skill a tiny boost for cleaning. like, 1/10th of what a successful shot does.

Then, lump together repair and sharpening with all the other crafting items, and call it "Handyman" or "Mechanical"  or "Trades" or "Survival" or whatever ya want, and give it some little perks like reduced wear on tools, reduced harvesting time for wood and metal, increased durability for crafted items, reduced crafting times, and finally, at level 5, again, a modest chance to salvage a ruined item with double the normal raw materials for the salvage. 

Absolutely, Troy. Admittedly, I was over-simplifying in my idea, but my thinking was that it seemed like the devs were opposed to the idea of more skills, or else the pseudo-skills that already exist would surely already be real skills like what you're suggesting. I love your ideas much more than my suggested compromise, but as you pointed out, I'm unsure if new skills would be implemented so late in the game. If nothing else, though, you are absolutely spot-on with the crafting of clothes being considered mending, as well as rifle cleaning going back to being considered firearms (though I could also see it as part of the proposed Handyman skill).

I would also argue that harvesting clothes should be considered Mending, speaking as someone who sews in real life. It takes skill to salvage usable pieces of fabric or leather from existing, possibly worn or damaged, clothing, at least in large enough pieces to be useful. And this would help level the skill at a more reasonable pace.

[Ruruwawa]

3 hours ago, WanderingPalm said:

As an aside, Ruruwawa, what does "ROI" mean?

Return on investment.

[JAFO]

10 hours ago, Ruruwawa said:

My own preference would be to make this a Sewing skill instead, and have both crafting and mending contribute to it.

8 hours ago, WanderingPalm said:

Or perhaps level 5 could allow you to use fishing lines as effectively as sewing kits, while also reducing the condition lost?

HELL YES! to both these suggestions.

[Thrasador]

16 minutes ago, JAFO said:

HELL YES! to both these suggestions.

I wholeheartedly agree with the forum members suggesting the clothing mending skill should instead be a sewing skill, and crafting clothing items should obviously contribute to raising said skill. So much so, I assumed it already did. If it indeed does not, I will add it to my ridiculous oversight list which includes cured guts and hides weighing the same amount as uncured ones.

I like the lv 5 ideas as well especially the ability to repair ruined clothing at lv 5. The fishing line one is nice too....but the ruined clothing one is on par with the lv 5 cooking saving ruined food....

[Fuarian]

By the time you get to level 5 you won't have any clothing left in the world to repair anyways. And you'd be on the animal hide clothing level anyways.

[JAFO]

41 minutes ago, Fuarian said:

By the time you get to level 5 you won't have any clothing left in the world to repair anyways. And you'd be on the animal hide clothing level anyways.

Going by @Arzanot's account above, they might disagree with you. And any given item can be repaired hundreds of times, if necessary.. it's not like clothing has a set lifespan before it can no longer be repaired.

[Ruruwawa]

2 minutes ago, JAFO said:

Going by @Arzanot's account above, they might disagree with you. And any given item can be repaired hundreds of times, if necessary.. it's not like clothing has a set lifespan before it can no longer be repaired.

I maintain a few spare hats and at least one spare bedroll in addition to what I'm wearing, even on Interloper.  I don't mend anything else in a sandbox I'm playing for real.  This achievement run is the first time I've even seen level 3, 4, or 5 mending.

[TROY]

For anyone interested, I just achieved level 4 in mending. That level gives you a 25% reduction in sewing kit wear. But, to add insult to injury, that doesnt actually work. The kit still loses 5% per repair. 

[JAFO]

5 hours ago, TROY said:

For anyone interested, I just achieved level 4 in mending. That level gives you a 25% reduction in sewing kit wear. But, to add insult to injury, that doesnt actually work. The kit still loses 5% per repair. 

That's worth a bug-report, methinks..