question Decoys and Scent Mechanics

[Mroz4k]

What I really need to find out if I was right about characters getting a smelly on their own when they exercise too much. I did a couple of tests, one was succesful - I had some smelly items on me (some cooked rabbit meat) but not enough to get to a first level of smelliness - and after running intensively, I have managed to get to the first level of smelliness, for limited amount of time. This has happened to me at least twice, once I did it on purpose. My computer broke down a bit ago so at the moment I dont have access to a PC capable of running TLD - but was wondering if someone ever came across this or if it was just some strange bug I experienced. 

[JAFO]

6 hours ago, Mroz4k said:

My computer broke down a bit ago so at the moment I dont have access to a PC capable of running TLD

Sorry to hear that mate.. hope it's running again soon.

[Mroz4k]

5 hours ago, JAFO said:

Sorry to hear that mate.. hope it's running again soon.

Nope, it is dead for good this time. Might take time at some point to pull my data out of the hard disk eventually, but not going to try and revive the PC - just going to have to buy a new one, hopefully soon.

[WanderingPalm]

On 8/21/2017 at 2:39 PM, Mroz4k said:

What I really need to find out if I was right about characters getting a smelly on their own when they exercise too much. I did a couple of tests, one was succesful - I had some smelly items on me (some cooked rabbit meat) but not enough to get to a first level of smelliness - and after running intensively, I have managed to get to the first level of smelliness, for limited amount of time. This has happened to me at least twice, once I did it on purpose. My computer broke down a bit ago so at the moment I dont have access to a PC capable of running TLD - but was wondering if someone ever came across this or if it was just some strange bug I experienced. 

Oh, interesting! And you weren't bleeding, I take it? Though considering our character never showers (except for the occasional dunk in the water under thin ice), I would be surprised if this were an intended mechanic. Shouldn't our character pretty much always be stinky from exertion?

I can't think of any other reason for a temporary increase in smell, though. Hm, I'll have to pay more attention to the meter during sprinting.

[MrWolf]

On 8/18/2017 at 8:15 AM, Prestermatt said:

Perhaps there could be a way to prepare actual "decoys" ahead of time, kind of like we do for rose hips and mushrooms now?  Maybe they are no longer edible, but take first priority over other things in the inventory when dropping?

I think there might be a way.  I did some tests when I had partially harvested rabbit carcasses and guts.  I harvested the meat and guts from three rabbits, didn't need the hides and wanted to use those carcasses for decoys.  I found that the order in which the rabbit carcasses and guts dropped when I pressed the decoy key was the reverse of adding them to my inventory.  

I had three rabbit carcasses and three guts on the floor in a cabin.  I picked up the guts first, then the carcasses, pressed the decoy key, and a carcass dropped.  I dropped everything, picked up the carcasses first, then the guts, pressed the decoy key, and a gut dropped.  So far, it's been working that way for me.  I picked up the three guts, then the three carcasses and set out.  I encountered a pack of wolves later and the first three times I pressed the decoy key, it dropped a carcass.

Now I drop all potential decoys on the floor/ground and pick them up in opposite order that I want to drop them.  So far, it's worked every time for me (with the exception noted below).  I'm playing Interloper, not sure if that makes any difference.

This does not seem to work with various conditions of the same items.  I tried picking up four guts from worst to best condition, best to worst condition, etc.  The guts did not drop in the reverse of how I added them to my inventory. but it still seems to work for different items.

 

[Prestermatt]

41 minutes ago, MrWolf said:

I think there might be a way.

Interesting research.  Thank you.

[WanderingPalm]

4 hours ago, MrWolf said:

I think there might be a way.

 

Iiiiiiinteresting... then that means it isn't actually related to their smelliness at all, despite what Mel told us.  This at least provides a workaround for the decoy problem if it works for everyone the same way--I'll have to try it out soon--but it also means that this might be the worst explained function I have ever seen in any game. XD

I wonder if maybe guts and rabbit carcasses have equal smell, though? Because I'm almost certain I picked up the Venison after the Fish, but dropped the Fish as decoy anyway. Hm, I'll need to do some more tests.

[MrWolf]

10 hours ago, MrWolf said:

I think there might be a way.  I did some tests when I had partially harvested rabbit carcasses and guts.  I harvested the meat and guts from three rabbits, didn't need the hides and wanted to use those carcasses for decoys.  I found that the order in which the rabbit carcasses and guts dropped when I pressed the decoy key was the reverse of adding them to my inventory.  

I think I was a bit premature in writing this.  I should have tested with other items as well.  I only had the guts and carcasses at the time and thought I was on to something.  I tried again with guts, raw meat, and cooked fish.  No matter the order in which I added things to my inventory, I always drop the meat first, then the guts, then the cooked fish.  Sorry for jumping to conclusions.

[WanderingPalm]

10 hours ago, MrWolf said:

I think I was a bit premature in writing this.  I should have tested with other items as well.  I only had the guts and carcasses at the time and thought I was on to something.  I tried again with guts, raw meat, and cooked fish.  No matter the order in which I added things to my inventory, I always drop the meat first, then the guts, then the cooked fish.  Sorry for jumping to conclusions.

It's still worth investigating why it worked differently with only carcasses and guts, though. So no worries!

[Ruruwawa]

On 8/19/2017 at 10:06 PM, WanderingPalm said:

Thanks, JAFO!

Well, that...just isn't true. We know for a fact that "smelliest" =/= "lowest condition", given the preference for certain items over others, regardless of their respective conditions. Perhaps I need to re-read the update notes for back when they added the scent mechanics. Or just wait patiently for an official response.

I think your equation breaks only the rabbit carcass (and possibly quartering bags), right?  I think those may trump other baits on the basis of blood, logic being:  fresh kills are bloody.  I've noticed that the Blood Loss affliction seems to draw predators from a much further range than typical.  In that past I always treated it right away for the condition loss.  These days, I sprint a few meters away from the site of the attack, crouch and bandage my wounds asap -- specifically to avoid getting caught in a series of attacks by wolves drawn in from afar.   And, sure enough, as soon as blood loss is gone the threat radius seems to drop to normal.

I haven't tested systematically either, because I just don't have that much time.  But my working assumption is that blood is strongest scent lure for predators.  Stronger than meat, raw or cooked, regardless of condition.

[WanderingPalm]

7 minutes ago, Ruruwawa said:

I think your equation breaks only the rabbit carcass (and possibly quartering bags), right?  I think those may trump other baits on the basis of blood, logic being:  fresh kills are bloody.  I've noticed that the Blood Loss affliction seems to draw predators from a much further range than typical.  In that past I always treated it right away for the condition loss.  These days, I sprint a few meters away from the site of the attack, crouch and bandage my wounds asap -- specifically to avoid getting caught in a series of attacks by wolves drawn in from afar.   And, sure enough, as soon as blood loss is gone the threat radius seems to drop to normal.

I haven't tested systematically either, because I just don't have that much time.  But my working assumption is that blood is strongest scent lure for predators.  Stronger than meat, raw or cooked, regardless of condition.

That makes sense in theory, but there is no difference between an untouched rabbit carcass (bloodless, having snapped its neck) and a gutted rabbit carcass (very bloody). And wouldn't raw meat be, by definition, bloody? Perhaps less so as it gets older (ie, as the condition drops). And the same would be true of fresh gut (and fresh hide, but I guess that has no scent). So it doesn't seem like blood is the only thing the devs took into consideration for determining the smell of items. But you are correct in that when you suffer from blood loss you immediately jump up to one stink line, even if you had nothing smelly on you before, which does suggest that your bleeding wound is among the stinkiest things in the game.

Hypothetically, it would make sense for the decrease in condition to decrease the smell of bloody things, and increase the smell of raw fish. But however condition does (or does not) factor in to the smell of an item, it is definitely not the only, or most important, factor at play.

[Ruruwawa]

1 minute ago, WanderingPalm said:

That makes sense in theory, but there is no difference between an untouched rabbit carcass (bloodless, having snapped its neck) and a gutted rabbit carcass (very bloody). And wouldn't raw meat be, by definition, bloody? Perhaps less so as it gets older (ie, as the condition drops). And the same would be true of fresh gut (and fresh hide, but I guess that has no scent). So it doesn't seem like blood is the only thing the devs took into consideration for determining the smell of items. But you are correct in that when you suffer from blood loss you immediately jump up to one stink line, even if you had nothing smelly on you before, which does suggest that your bleeding wound is among the stinkiest things in the game.

Hypothetically, it would make sense for the decrease in condition to decrease the smell of bloody things, and increase the smell of raw fish. But however condition does (or does not) factor in to the smell of an item, it is definitely not the only, or most important, factor at play.

Hinterland never tell us exactly how a gameplay system works.  It's left as an exercise for players to figure out, part of what makes the game challenging and community engaging, IMO.   I agree with you that condition is likely not the only factor... for every other gameplay system I've tried to tease apart in the past it's always been several things.

That said, the two major factors I've noticed for decoys have been condition and item type (carcass, meat, fish, gut) -- and in the past, many other food items.  Based on a lot of hours played, my guess is that both condition and item type are weighted in the formula, so that 5% fish might drop before a 100% bear steak.  (Totally made that example up, I don't know if those numbers are accurate.)

But this begs the question, how many decoys are you carrying?  I usually carry just one, but when I carry more than one they are the same type.  A couple guts, or a couple scraps of meat.  In fact if I'm at a base I'll have a few spares laying in a corner spoiling to 0% so I rarely need to concern myself with what will drop when I press Drop Decoy.

As for the scent from the bunny carcass, dunno.  Does it making the scent change based on the state of the bunny carcass really make TLD  more fun?  Right now, carcass scent feels like a fantastic counter to the ridiculous ease of stunning bunnies.  An easy meal + crafting mats for a risky trip home.  I really like that kind of tradeoff.

[WanderingPalm]

On 8/25/2017 at 6:48 PM, Ruruwawa said:

Hinterland never tell us exactly how a gameplay system works.  It's left as an exercise for players to figure out, part of what makes the game challenging and community engaging, IMO. 

...

But this begs the question, how many decoys are you carrying?  I usually carry just one, but when I carry more than one they are the same type.  A couple guts, or a couple scraps of meat.  In fact if I'm at a base I'll have a few spares laying in a corner spoiling to 0% so I rarely need to concern myself with what will drop when I press Drop Decoy.

As for the scent from the bunny carcass, dunno.  Does it making the scent change based on the state of the bunny carcass really make TLD  more fun?  Right now, carcass scent feels like a fantastic counter to the ridiculous ease of stunning bunnies.  An easy meal + crafting mats for a risky trip home.  I really like that kind of tradeoff.

Normally I have no problem with making the players figure out the specifics of things, like what foods are the most weight efficient and how long your character can actually go without food, water, or rest. That all makes sense that the character wouldn't just have that innate knowledge. My problem with not explaining this mechanic is that our character HAS A NOSE, and one might assume a working one at that. Surely I should be able to tell if, say, a fresh fish smells more than an old fish, or if a gut smells more than cooked venison. I don't need specific values of anything --that WOULD be unrealistic for my character to know-- but there is no reason why the character shouldn't be able to tell what factors into making an item smell more or less (like condition or weight). So THAT is what I'm trying to clarify.

As for how much bait I carry around? Well, it's not really an issue of carrying "bait". It has more to do with coming across a carcass and harvesting it, then bringing it back to camp. Or when I went on a fishing binge and knew I'd want to bring all of it back to my main base-- on that occasion, I brought along bait, rancid venison (around 20% raw), to distract the wolves that might show up before I got home. So you can imagine how annoyed I was that the fresh fish (over 95%) dropped before my bait did-- because my character apparently has the ability to discern which item smells the most while in a crisis situation, but not while she's sorting her inventory. And she never deigns to share this knowledge with me, the player. Regardless, there are different play styles. Some people may carry around a lot more "bait" than you, some may carry less. You may not have encountered a scenario in which this becomes a problem, but others may.

As for the last thought about the bunny carcass: I don't really think we need two different versions of the carcass-- that wasn't what I was suggesting. I only brought up the bunny carcass to point out the flaw with the reasoning that bloody things were more smelly. Since there is no blood on an unharvested bunny (unless you shot it, I guess), and yet it is deemed just as smelly as a harvested bunny (since the item is the same in either event), clearly, blood was not a factor of the smell. ...unless it actually IS more smelly and I just haven't tested it enough . Of course, the difference in smell could also be attributed to a difference in condition or weight or each item of a type having a random value within a range. Which brings us right back to the first paragraph of this post.

[JAFO]

2 hours ago, WanderingPalm said:

My problem with not explaining this mechanic is that our character HAS A NOSE, and one might assume a working one at that. Surely I should be able to tell if, say, a fresh fish smells more than an old fish, or if a gut smells more than cooked venison.

Of course, we won't get into the little detail that humans actually have one of the worst senses of smell of any animal on the planet.. <evil grin>

(Just yankin' your chain here.. I actually agree with you. )

[Thrasador]

4 hours ago, WanderingPalm said:

Normally I have no problem with making the players figure out the specifics of things, like what foods are the most weight efficient and how long your character can actually go without food, water, or rest. That all makes sense that the character wouldn't just have that innate knowledge. My problem with not explaining this mechanic is that our character HAS A NOSE, and one might assume a working one at that. Surely I should be able to tell if, say, a fresh fish smells more than an old fish, or if a gut smells more than cooked venison. I don't need specific values of anything --that WOULD be unrealistic for my character to know-- but there is no reason why the character shouldn't be able to tell what factors into making an item smell more or less (like condition or weight). So THAT is what I'm trying to clarify.

As for how much bait I carry around? Well, it's not really an issue of carrying "bait". It has more to do with coming across a carcass and harvesting it, then bringing it back to camp. Or when I went on a fishing binge and knew I'd want to bring all of it back to my main base-- on that occasion, I brought along bait, rancid venison (around 20% raw), to distract the wolves that might show up before I got home. So you can imagine how annoyed I was that the fresh fish (over 95%) dropped before my bait did-- because my character apparently has the ability to discern which item smells the most while in a crisis situation, but not while she's sorting her inventory. And she never deigns to share this knowledge with me, the player. Regardless, there are different play styles. Some people may carry around a lot more "bait" than you, some may carry less. You may not have encountered a scenario in which this becomes a problem, but others may.

As for the last thought about the bunny carcass: I don't really think we need two different versions of the carcass-- that wasn't what I was suggesting. I only brought up the bunny carcass to point out the flaw with the reasoning that bloody things were more smelly. Since there is no blood on an unharvested bunny (unless you shot it, I guess), and yet it is deemed just as smelly as a harvested bunny (since the item is the same in either event), clearly, blood was not a factor of the smell. ...unless it actually IS more smelly and I just haven't tested it enough . Of course, the difference in smell could also be attributed to a difference in condition or weight or each item of a type having a random value within a range. Which brings us right back to the first paragraph of this post.

You drop small pieces before big pieces if they are all of the same type....venison for instance, and same state (raw vs cooked) and same general condition....rancid or fresh etc. What I mean is you don't drop a BIG rotten piece over a small rotten piece because the game assumes the small piece is the bait, and the big piece you are keeping to possibly eat....even though it is rotten and you probably are not going to eat it, lol.

Also, as far as smell mechanics go you get the first scent bar at six pieces of cooked meat regardless if they are six 1 kilogram pieces of cooked meat, or six 3 kilogram pieces of cooked fish, or six 0.20 kilogram pieces of cooked meat. Meaning they don't take the weight amount of something into consideration for how smelly something is. Big pieces are NOT more smelly than small pieces....even though you would assume they are....

But you brought raw and or cooked venison as bait, right? And then caught raw fresh fish....The game program believes uncooked fish is one of the most smelly item types for bait. That's why you were dropping the uncooked fish over raw rancid venison.

So by default small uncooked rotting pieces of fish apparently are most smelly food you can drop. I know yours were fresh and not rotting, but even fresh, the game treated them as more smelly than rancid venison. So having small smelly rotten pieces of uncooked fish would be probably the best food bait, and first dropped over all other food meats. I believe uncured gut is even smellier still, and uncured gut is generally dropped first over anything else....

What we need to know is how cooked fish stacks up against raw and cooked animal meats....?

I usually don't carry raw anything as bait, I cook all my food and then hit cancel while eating to get small pieces....and drop those. When I do that and carry small cooked fish pieces as bait along with cooked pieces of venison or wolf, I always drop the cooked fish bait first....so cooked fish is more smelly than other cooked animal meats too.

What I haven't tested is raw venison, bear, wolf vs cooked fish....and the non-fish animal meats against each other....other than raw trumps cooked, and cooked fish trumps other cooked meats....and uncured gut trumps raw anything....that's the summation of my knowledge on the topic thus far....

[Frosty]

On Friday, August 18, 2017 at 8:15 AM, Prestermatt said:

Perhaps there could be a way to prepare actual "decoys" ahead of time

I don't see how this would be a problem in implementing as the mechanics are already there for the food category.

You can add what food items you want to be on the radial menu instead of going through all the items in the backpack, and there is a decoy option on the radial menu once you have something that qualifies.

Players should be able to place the decoy item they choose to drop in the radial the same way 

[WanderingPalm]

13 hours ago, Thrasador said:

So by default small uncooked rotting pieces of fish apparently are most smelly food you can drop. I know yours were fresh and not rotting, but even fresh, the game treated them as more smelly than rancid venison. So having small smelly rotten pieces of uncooked fish would be probably the best food bait, and first dropped over all other food meats. I believe uncured gut is even smellier still, and uncured gut is generally dropped first over anything else....

How do you get small pieces of raw fish? I didn't realize I could chop them down without cooking them. And thanks for all your other data!

[Thrasador]

32 minutes ago, WanderingPalm said:

How do you get small pieces of raw fish? I didn't realize I could chop them down without cooking them. And thanks for all your other data!

That is an excellent question that I didn't think of lol....

I guess you can't, unless you want food poisoning, rofl....

Other than fish, when you are butchering an animal you can hit cancel and stop early and get smaller pieces, which is actually a good way to raise cooking.....by cooking a ton of .1 or .2 pieces of an animal....

But you're right, you don't get to butcher fish....so I guess the only way to get small pieces of raw fish, would be to eat raw fish and hit cancel before you finish. This will most assuredly give you food poisoning....so yeah not the best idea, lol.

You can get small pieces of cooked fish though by eating it and hitting cancel. Sorry I guess I wasn't thinking clearly when I made that statement....oops.

[WanderingPalm]

9 hours ago, Thrasador said:

Other  than fish, when you are butchering an animal you can hit cancel and stop early and get smaller pieces, which is actually a good way to raise cooking.....by cooking a ton of .1 or .2 pieces of an animal....

But you're right, you don't get to butcher fish....so I guess the only way to get small pieces of raw fish, would be to eat raw fish and hit cancel before you finish. This will most assuredly give you food poisoning....so yeah not the best idea, lol.

Aw, dang, I was hoping you just knew something I didn't.  Though I actually hadn't put that together about cooking a bunch of small meats to raise my cooking skill faster. I mean, it makes sense that it's not related to the weight of the food you're cooking, so I don't know WHY I never put that together... But hey, today I learned!

[Thrasador]

4 hours ago, WanderingPalm said:

Aw, dang, I was hoping you just knew something I didn't.  Though I actually hadn't put that together about cooking a bunch of small meats to raise my cooking skill faster. I mean, it makes sense that it's not related to the weight of the food you're cooking, so I don't know WHY I never put that together... But hey, today I learned!

Yeah, my other tidbits of knowledge are solid.....I just had a total brain fart on the fresh fish bit....

Another tidbit I wish I had know is about ruined food that you can cook. Ok, so ruined stuff, if it has a red "X" through it will vanish if you put it inside ANY container....which is a good way to get rid of used up sewing kits....but DON'T do it with ruined food you can cook. Just drop ruined food on the floor in your base until AFTER you get cooking to lv 5.

When you get cooking to lv 5, anything you cook becomes safe to eat...i.e. Pinnacle Peaches, condensed milk, tomato soup, etc...

And currently (unless they recently patched it) you can still cook ruined food with an X through it.....

But you can't EAT ruined food with an X through it you say.....well that's TECHNICALLY true. What you do is this:

Cook the ruined food.

Drop it on the ground.

Pick it up by selecting it so you can look at it, but DON'T put it back in your bag....

Hit space bar.....and you'll eat the ruined food. Since you cooked it after getting cooking to LV 5 it won't make you sick....

Oh, all the cans of 0 condition food I disappeared by putting them indide a container.....soooo sad.....