Guns. (at least a few)


The_Czar762

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1. The appropriate front post on the existing enfield would a nice touch

2. Having to find a magazine to have full capacity might be worth looking into (as mentioned in earlier posts)

3. A shotgun! very utilitarian: game shot for rabbits, and crows in desperation, possibly buck shot for closer shots at deer, and getting a chompy wolf off you, and of course, nothing says "shoo, bear" quite like a full ounce of lead flying through the air. slugs would be nice... and necessarily rare.  A pump action would allow for more ammo, but would have a slower reload and follow up shot.  a double barrel would have an immediate follow up shot, but then you're empty.  each has it's merits... 

4. Possibly a take down .22 for small game. 5-7 rounds out of a small .22 might be nice for pegging a rabbit, or for when you're wearing your brown pants as a wolf is about to make you a chew toy... might not work all that well, but it beats nothing... a marlin papoose or a winchester model 62 would be a good place to start for inspiration (even if licensing means the exact design is a no-go).

5. Maybe, just maybe... a pistol of some sort... the police tend to have them, and I'd find it hard to believe that bear island didn't have a police force somewhere.  also, possible characters for story mode?

Just my 2 cents. I know firearms aren't as prevalent in canada as they are in the states, but if you're that far out in the middle of nowhere, it would make a lot more sense given remoteness, and the much higher probability to run into potentially dangerous wild life (vs. typical civilization).

Bonus: compound bow? the ability to craft spears?

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I like the idea of different guns – finding the first rifle is exciting, finding the third or fourth not so much.  But keep them rare, i.e. same total number of guns in the game, just vary the types.

It could add more variability to different runs: a game where you find a shotgun first  might play very different than one where you find a hunting rifle, a pistol, etc.  Different ammo types could force you to think carefully about what weapon you take with you and how you use it.

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Sigh, this is such an old topic. 

This game is a thoughtful EXLPORATION and SURVIVAL experience.

This game has never been and I never see it being a shooter game for wildlife. When you boot up the game you receive a message stating that the destruction of wildlife is NOT wanted. This game is not a hunting simulator where you want to be finding the best gun possible to take down certain animals, and even if you did want this game to be a hunting experience, the game provides you with access to a hunting rifle. I don't know about you, but I've never seen anyone hunting with a handgun for deer and certainly not bears.

There's also issues with usability. Ammunition for example is not the most common resource acquired in the quiet apocalypse and should be saved when used for when it is needed the most. If you added extra weapon types I think I for one might find it annoying having an ammo section to determine how many rounds I can fire from each weapon. Oh, let me use my rifle to kill this wolf, sorry, only shotgun ammo found. 

Also, guns are rare and require upkeep which makes them so special. Adding more guns would require more spawning locations to increase availability for specific weapons. If you then wanted to take these weapons with you anywhere you would also have to carry them, and guns can be specifically heavy items to lug around from place to place.

Guns so far have two main purposes: 

• The Rifle - To kill

• The Flair Gun - To Scare

As far as I'm concerned that's all we'll ever need.

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9 minutes ago, henroe32 said:

There's also issues with usability. Ammunition for example is not the most common resource acquired in the quiet apocalypse and should be saved when used for when it is needed the most. If you added extra weapon types I think I for one might find it annoying having an ammo section to determine how many rounds I can fire from each weapon. Oh, let me use my rifle to kill this wolf, sorry, only shotgun ammo found. 

Also, guns are rare and require upkeep which makes them so special. Adding more guns would require more spawning locations to increase availability for specific weapons. If you then wanted to take these weapons with you anywhere you would also have to carry them, and guns can be specifically heavy items to lug around from place to place.

yup.tottally agree on that one.more guns more ammo to find..more weapon swaping during gameplay..more weight ..and yes each weapon should be use for specific reason...meaning that random encounter make it tottally useless .for ex :shotgun less range means that we got to be real close ..and most animal would run away or attack that close..agree on the part of the handgun being  useless againts wildlife...maybe the only thing you can do to ad more variety  is 2 or 3 diferent skins fr the rifle.like diferent type of carved wood or colour of wood...

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I disagree. Enfield is enough. Guns, in general, are not that good of a hunting weapon in the game. You are probably right, the wilderness would likely have a lot bigger variety of guns, but consider this point: Too many different weapon types would essentially break the balance of the game. You would have several guns, and for them to be useful at all, all would need to spawn a sufficient amount of ammo in-game. So, that means, collect all the gun types and ammo - let say 5 different guns - you now have 5 times as much ammo as you used to have in previous TLD. So why even bother to craft a bow? Just shoot till you die.

Also if you went against a bear with a shotgun, oh well, good luck to you. My bet would be it would just piss him off.

Maybe, and only maybe, I would consider a black-powder musket. 

Would be shittier version of Enfield, 1 shot to reload lighter gun falling under rifle skill, moderate crit chance, high precision and slow bleeding rates, but with more common ammunition, which would have to be crafted out of ingredients one can find in the world. The ammunition would also be susceptible to weather, as in let's say the player was over 50% wet, the powder would cease to function.

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I think the general idea would be each fits a 'role' or scenario.

e.g.

  • Self-Sufficiency (Bow? Rocks? A Slingshot with 300 BB? Blowdarts ?) - Vs. Anything
  • Med. Hunting (Rifle or Carbine, Crossbow) - Vs. Moose, Wolves, Deer, Wild Dogs
  • Heavy Hunting (Long Rifle, Shotgun) - Vs. Bear, Cougar, Eldritch Horrors from beyond
  • Light Hunting / Self-Defence (Small Caliber Carbine or Pistol) - Vs. Rabbits, Raccoon, Badgers, Foxes
  • Special Purpose: anything specific for story-line purposes or special uses (Flares, Rockets, Phasers, ect)

So at least three of those slots are covered; there are room for ~2 more?

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11 hours ago, Melchior said:

I think the general idea would be each fits a 'role' or scenario.

e.g.

  • Self-Sufficiency (Bow? Rocks? A Slingshot with 300 BB? Blowdarts ?) - Vs. Anything
  • Med. Hunting (Rifle or Carbine, Crossbow) - Vs. Moose, Wolves, Deer, Wild Dogs
  • Heavy Hunting (Long Rifle, Shotgun) - Vs. Bear, Cougar, Eldritch Horrors from beyond
  • Light Hunting / Self-Defence (Small Caliber Carbine or Pistol) - Vs. Rabbits, Raccoon, Badgers, Foxes
  • Special Purpose: anything specific for story-line purposes or special uses (Flares, Rockets, Phasers, ect)

So at least three of those slots are covered; there are room for ~2 more?

In fact, the current weapons all have their pros and cons:
Bow

pros: Crafted from plentiful resources, recoverable projectiles, strong bleeding effect, silent, pulled out fairly quickly.

cons: One shot per "reload", short range and significant "projectile-drop", low critical chance, cannot fire from crouching until Rank 5 @ Archery, heavy projectiles, crafted from cured resources meaning it takes time before one can "craft" the bow from first day.

Rifle

pros: Powerful critical hit chance, bullets fly in a straight line, ammo is very light, loud - shots scare away everything but bears and charging wolves, medium to far range depending on marksman skill, easy to use, solid iron sights, books about marksmanship can help improve skill without a need to waste ammo, loaded and ready to fire when pulled out.

cons: Heavy weapon, ammo is scarce and limited, loud in terms of attracts bears and makes prey retreat, necessary maintenance.

Flare gun

pros: Powerful bleeding effect, scares away everything, the weapon is light, can provide light if necessary, silent.

cons: Weak crit chance, very low range with a massive projective drop, heavy and rare limited ammunition, long reload/pull-out speed, the general rarity of the weapon (2 spawn locations in the entire game).

Rocks

pros: Available everywhere, very easy to use, kill-range for rabbits is short but distraction range is medium to far, can be used right away. No weapon needed, moderate projectile drop but still counts as "hit" on several bounces.

cons: Very heavy projectiles, can only be used to hunt rabbits for food, it takes time to pull them out of pockets (last weapon to pull out on default shortcut weapon button)
_____
That's pretty much it. These also show what is useful for which purpose, bow is an overall useful long-term hunting solution, the rifle is more useful for leisure hunting around one´s base or when exploring the high-risk locations (for example Town & gas station in Coastal), flare gun is powerful self-defense weapon and stones are for emergency hunting and distraction of other wildlife.

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On 05/08/2017 at 10:41 AM, Melchior said:

I think the general idea would be each fits a 'role' or scenario.

e.g.

  • Self-Sufficiency (Bow? Rocks? A Slingshot with 300 BB? Blowdarts ?) - Vs. Anything
  • Med. Hunting (Rifle or Carbine, Crossbow) - Vs. Moose, Wolves, Deer, Wild Dogs
  • Heavy Hunting (Long Rifle, Shotgun) - Vs. Bear, Cougar, Eldritch Horrors from beyond
  • Light Hunting / Self-Defence (Small Caliber Carbine or Pistol) - Vs. Rabbits, Raccoon, Badgers, Foxes
  • Special Purpose: anything specific for story-line purposes or special uses (Flares, Rockets, Phasers, ect)

So at least three of those slots are covered; there are room for ~2 more?

So this is kind of one of those "the right tool for the job" things, then?

Part of what makes TLD so much fun is that often, you don't have the right tool for the job, and are forced to make do with what you actually do have (whilst wishing you had something better). It makes you get creative with your solutions.

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Indeed - 'funny' in a gallows humour sort of way:

e.g All you have is a 12ga Double Barrel shotgun - for bunny hunting.

The bunny is VERY effectively terminated, just now you need to walk around picking up the tiny pieces of it to get any meat at all... (pelt - also torn asunder :S)

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1 hour ago, Melchior said:

e.g All you have is a 12ga Double Barrel shotgun - for bunny hunting.

The bunny is VERY effectively terminated, just now you need to walk around picking up the tiny pieces of it to get any meat at all... (pelt - also torn asunder :S)

Indeed.. and that's when, to quote myself above, you "get creative with your solutions". Throw rocks, or make snares instead.. or work on your archery skills, even. ;)

Not as insta-solution/entertaining as the standard USA approach of shooting all your problems, to be sure, but vastly more satisfying when you succeed.

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On 8/3/2017 at 10:43 AM, The_Czar762 said:

1. The appropriate front post on the existing enfield would a nice touch

2. Having to find a magazine to have full capacity might be worth looking into (as mentioned in earlier posts)

3. A shotgun! very utilitarian: game shot for rabbits, and crows in desperation, possibly buck shot for closer shots at deer, and getting a chompy wolf off you, and of course, nothing says "shoo, bear" quite like a full ounce of lead flying through the air. slugs would be nice... and necessarily rare.  A pump action would allow for more ammo, but would have a slower reload and follow up shot.  a double barrel would have an immediate follow up shot, but then you're empty.  each has it's merits... 

4. Possibly a take down .22 for small game. 5-7 rounds out of a small .22 might be nice for pegging a rabbit, or for when you're wearing your brown pants as a wolf is about to make you a chew toy... might not work all that well, but it beats nothing... a marlin papoose or a winchester model 62 would be a good place to start for inspiration (even if licensing means the exact design is a no-go).

5. Maybe, just maybe... a pistol of some sort... the police tend to have them, and I'd find it hard to believe that bear island didn't have a police force somewhere.  also, possible characters for story mode?

Just my 2 cents. I know firearms aren't as prevalent in canada as they are in the states, but if you're that far out in the middle of nowhere, it would make a lot more sense given remoteness, and the much higher probability to run into potentially dangerous wild life (vs. typical civilization).

Bonus: compound bow? the ability to craft spears?

I've always gotten the impression of this game's aesthetic as being old timey and rustic, kind of like a Cracker Barrel, and with that in mind a lot of what you suggest seem to work out, I would just use the older versions of the firearms you mentioned. I haven't had the chance to own a Lee-Enfield yet, but I've recently come to own some surplus/C&R firearms and what they all seem to have in common is that the sights are not all that great. But I think that has more to do with the differences between military marksmanship and civilian marksmanship. If you're an infantryman and you are able to hit a man sized target with that Lee-Enfield at about 300 yards away, that's generally good enough for combat. For a civilian doing sport shooting, they're probably asking for sub-MOA accuracy at that same distance, or basically they're wanting to stack one shot after another all through roughly the same hole in the target. If I had to make a change as far as the rifle I'd just go with any generic mauser style bolt action rifle sporting a wood stock and an integral 5 round magazine, its generic and fairly timeless if you ask me. In terms of the shotgun, again any generic pump action 5 round 12 gauge should do the trick, or if we want to up the ante, maybe make it a single shot break action shotgun. In terms of the shotshells I'd say keep it to birdshot so you can use it for small game like rabbits or birds as you suggested, but give people the option to make cut shells, so they'd act like slugs but only at close range and due to the alterations to their case make them unable to cycle out of a pump action (so it'd be one shot at a time, you'd have to have pump out the spent shell and load in another). I can take or leave a .22 rifle, but if it were to be included, make it a lever action or maybe tube magazine fed like the Marlin Model 60, so you're forced to have to reload one at a time to add some balance. I think a revolver would be a wonderful addition, but it should be purely for defense, I'm thinking maybe a snub nose .38 special with a 2 inch barrel, it'd be easy to put down a wolf at close range (i.e. right as he is about to jump you distance), but harder to hit when you are separated by more than 7 yards. Of course it should just tickle an already charging bear, but maybe it could be used to scare off a bear that you haven't agro'd yet.

If that all seems complicated, it could always be simplified down to what the cowboys used to do, they'd have their revolvers and lever action rifles both using the same caliber. That simplified the ammo situation and the only difference being that the lever action rifle had slightly better ballistic performance than the revolver due to barrel length. It might be a bit of a leap (story wise) but it would fit the rustic aesthetic more than an AR15 and a Glock at least in my opinion.

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As I have stated before in the other dozen or so more guns threads, you are in Canada where guns are somewhat less prevalent as other places. Also people are not likely to leave guns and ammo behind when running from a natural disaster, or moving. What we need is what we can make with what we can find, spears, bows, slings, traps ect. More guns no, but when have you ever found a box of rifle ammo on a shelf with just 5 rounds? Most come in 20.

Reloading? No. Reloading is a precise business, mess it up and no firearm at best, no you can also result.

Muzzle loader. Can be made with a forge, with great skill and effort, not for a novice. Making powder, maybe if you know the recipe, how long did that take humanity to learn?

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19 minutes ago, Mpat120 said:

As I have stated before in the other dozen or so more guns threads, you are in Canada where guns are somewhat less prevalent as other places. Also people are not likely to leave guns and ammo behind when running from a natural disaster, or moving. What we need is what we can make with what we can find, spears, bows, slings, traps ect. More guns no, but when have you ever found a box of rifle ammo on a shelf with just 5 rounds? Most come in 20.

Reloading? No. Reloading is a precise business, mess it up and no firearm at best, no you can also result.

Muzzle loader. Can be made with a forge, with great skill and effort, not for a novice. Making powder, maybe if you know the recipe, how long did that take humanity to learn?

I think though that the firearms culture in Canada is downplayed, they have more licensing and restrictions than American firearms owners, but they can be just ardent about firearms as we can be. This Canadian Youtuber has quite an impressive collection, I'm still new to the hobby but I am quite jealous of what he's got so far. But I do agree with the notion for more primitive weapons, I mean can I at least get a sharp stick to keep the wolves away?

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14 hours ago, deathbydanish said:

I mean can I at least get a sharp stick to keep the wolves away?

I'd say no. TLD is all about you feeling weak facing the strenght of nature, and how you get your fingers out of your sorry a** (sorry, typical french saying here, not sure if it translates well :) ) in order to survive just a bit longer. Firearms are the exact opposite : you can't feel any stronger, knowing you can shoot down any danger-that-can-walk and shift it to lots of meat. The rifle in TLD is already almost too powerful.

And hey : when you are counting your matches and searching hours for little sticks in a ruined jean & Tshirt with a blizzard raging outside, does it make any sense to have an efficient gun and lots of ammo ??? Throwing stones was imo a better idea.

Quote

Not as insta-solution/entertaining as the standard USA approach of shooting all your problems

I guess that's the main problem here : cultural differences. Here in France we have near to no access to firearms (only for hunting and shooting at stand, with very heavy restrictions). So we just don't care about weapons and approach our problems differently.  ;)

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3 hours ago, StrayCat said:

I'd say no. TLD is all about you feeling weak facing the strenght of nature, and how you get your fingers out of your sorry a** (sorry, typical french saying here, not sure if it translates well :) ) in order to survive just a bit longer. Firearms are the exact opposite : you can't feel any stronger, knowing you can shoot down any danger-that-can-walk and shift it to lots of meat. The rifle in TLD is already almost too powerful.

And hey : when you are counting your matches and searching hours for little sticks in a ruined jean & Tshirt with a blizzard raging outside, does it make any sense to have an efficient gun and lots of ammo ??? Throwing stones was imo a better idea.

 

Trust me I already feel at a distinct disadvantage when I am out there with just the metal shard for defense :P

But I still feel that it is germane to the survival aspect of the game to have some kind of primitive or makeshift weapon. Its not too much of a stretch to consider even just a big rock laying on the ground being useful to bash a wolf that's lunging at you, I mean our early ancestors were probably doing that to each other.

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But I still feel that it is germane to the survival aspect of the game to have some kind of primitive or makeshift weapon.

That is a very interesting point. When I look at preppers forums/sites in the USA, I see a HUGE AMOUNT of threads about weapons, as if it were the most important thing of survival. In Europe, the forums are not like that, focusing on getting potable water, heat, etc. There is a real cultural gap on this matter.

But I guess that, just like NPCs in survivor mode, the use of weapons in TLD is a divider in the community, depending on the way you play.

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8 hours ago, StrayCat said:

That is a very interesting point. When I look at preppers forums/sites in the USA, I see a HUGE AMOUNT of threads about weapons, as if it were the most important thing of survival. In Europe, the forums are not like that, focusing on getting potable water, heat, etc. There is a real cultural gap on this matter.

But I guess that, just like NPCs in survivor mode, the use of weapons in TLD is a divider in the community, depending on the way you play.

Don't read into everything that they say as gospel :P

I think what you might be seeing is people who confuse their hobby/past time as a skill, when you mention the cultural difference, I think you might only be seeing one side of the coin, not everyone who owns firearms thinks that a team of minority gang bangers is going to kick down their door and rob them. I've seen the firearms discussion come up on this board enough to realize that on both sides there is a lot of ignorance, there has yet to be an intelligent, well thought out, discussion that didn't end up being a tit for tat adversarial exchange.

 

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9 hours ago, StrayCat said:

That is a very interesting point. When I look at preppers forums/sites in the USA, I see a HUGE AMOUNT of threads about weapons, as if it were the most important thing of survival.

In the US defending your self and supplies is important in the early stage of TSHTF, as weapons are ubiquitous here. Later when the armed horde has died off and your store of food and water are depleted basic survival will come into its own. Different places have different situations, Europe will have its own dynamic in the same situation. IMO there is no best or worst way, only survival. And in the end you have to accept the stone age as a possibility, eventually there will be no more bullets.

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On 10. 8. 2017 at 1:14 AM, Mpat120 said:

Making powder, maybe if you know the recipe, how long did that take humanity to learn?

 

I once had a chemistry, in the sixth grade of elementary school. I know how to make black gunpowder because DAMN isn't it easy... I am literally sitting on top of three kilos worth of black gunpowder materials with just my household items (process is really simple and only hazardous for those who do it incorrectly)
And to answer your question - Chinese figured it out in 9th century, and in 10th century they were already happily killing each other with bamboo fire piston guns, eventually replaced with metal ones (guess they figured out metal is better for the job with plenty of blown up fingers) sometime in 12th century, making the very first firearm concepts. Husits here in Czech republic gave birth to the modern concept of firearms, including the English word "pistol" which comes from "píšťala", aka "whistle", since that was something of a fire-piston/primitive pistol at the time, used during Husit raids.

Black gunpowder is very simple to make if you paid any attention at school. All you need is to get three basic composites for it (sulphur, which is common fungicide, saltpeter used commonly for meat preservation, and charcoal, made by your trusty friend fire) and know the rates in which you need to mix it, and how to do it safely - and even if you were daft and made a mistake, you would probably end up creating some sort of black gunpowder. For example, higher sulphur concentration is used in the "explosive" version of BG, the one that has higher destructive power (not very good for musket as it would damage it more, but not impossible to use either).

Never did I suggest you should be able to craft the musket. Just find it. Black powder hunting is a hobby to a lot of people living in US and Canada, as well as around the world. It would be rare, sure, but I think it could make more sense than adding a fuckton of different kind of weapons and turning this game into CoD Man vs. Wildlife. On the contrary, smithing bullets is relatively simple, since they don't have to be a perfect sphere, and like I said before, making of black gunpowder is really easy, I knew how to do it when I was 13 years old. If anything, it would be cool if the musket was found damaged but would have to be repaired, rather then crafted, but in a somewhat similar fashion (through smithing).

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31 minutes ago, Mroz4k said:

I once had a chemistry, in the sixth grade of elementary school. I know how to make black gunpowder because DAMN isn't it easy... I am literally sitting on top of three kilos worth of black gunpowder materials with just my household items (process is really simple and only hazardous for those who do it incorrectly)
And to answer your question - Chinese figured it out in 9th century, and in 10th century they were already happily killing each other with bamboo fire piston guns, eventually replaced with metal ones (guess they figured out metal is better for the job with plenty of blown up fingers) sometime in 12th century, making the very first firearm concepts. Husits here in Czech republic gave birth to the modern concept of firearms, including the English word "pistol" which comes from "píšťala", aka "whistle", since that was something of a fire-piston/primitive pistol at the time, used during Husit raids.

Black gunpowder is very simple to make if you paid any attention at school. All you need is to get three basic composites for it (sulphur, which is common fungicide, saltpeter used commonly for meat preservation, and charcoal, made by your trusty friend fire) and know the rates in which you need to mix it, and how to do it safely - and even if you were daft and made a mistake, you would probably end up creating some sort of black gunpowder. For example, higher sulphur concentration is used in the "explosive" version of BG, the one that has higher destructive power (not very good for musket as it would damage it more, but not impossible to use either).

Never did I suggest you should be able to craft the musket. Just find it. Black powder hunting is a hobby to a lot of people living in US and Canada, as well as around the world. It would be rare, sure, but I think it could make more sense than adding a fuckton of different kind of weapons and turning this game into CoD Man vs. Wildlife. On the contrary, smithing bullets is relatively simple, since they don't have to be a perfect sphere, and like I said before, making of black gunpowder is really easy, I knew how to do it when I was 13 years old. If anything, it would be cool if the musket was found damaged but would have to be repaired, rather then crafted, but in a somewhat similar fashion (through smithing).

I'm on board with just finding a black powder musket, I think a lot of non-firearms people seem to forget that even an old musket can outlive its owner. Its not unusual to find to find black powder weapons being passed on from generation to generation. IMO it'd be interesting to use it as a quest item, like you need to go out and fetch something, but the quest giver knows it will be well within predator territory and doesn't want you to go unarmed.

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53 minutes ago, Mroz4k said:

If anything, it would be cool if the musket was found damaged but would have to be repaired, rather then crafted, but in a somewhat similar fashion (through smithing).

This I can be on board with as a lot of black powder arms had a corresponding bullet mold somewhere, and would likely be left behind as a obsolete item, the story of finding it is plausible. Maybe a book like the one with the rifle and bow to go with it.

 

1 hour ago, Mroz4k said:

weapons and turning this game into CoD Man vs. Wildlife.

This is exactly what I dont want to happen.

 

26 minutes ago, deathbydanish said:

IMO it'd be interesting to use it as a quest item, like you need to go out and fetch something

Quest item in Story mode, but in Survival mode found in a random cave perhaps?

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